MSL Dublin Service

Trev C

Just wondering if anyone has had any poor dealings with MSL in Dublin, in particular Pottery Road?
I have had to deal with them a number of times in the past few months and have had nothing but problems with them.

Firstly i had an oil pump problem with an Audi TT back in February. Long story short, they took it in and said it would be ready in two days. Two days gone past, no contact from anyone at MSL. I called them, told it would be another day. This happened for the following 3 days, me having to call them. Eventually after a week and a half, i called them on a Friday to be told by the receptionist that the car was ready the previous day. I asked to speak to Audi service manager as was told it wasnt. He told me it wasnt ready. When i mentioned receptionist said it was, he came back and said, "oh my mistake, yes it is". Cant help but feel that somebody wanted to go for spin for the weekend or something. I am sure they would have better cars at hand but thats the impression i got. Cost me just under

bruce wayne

I felt the same way, I left my TT in last year, and felt they were very expensive and they cracked the engine cover and refused to acknowledge it was them....have'nt been back since.

I had to get my timing belt done last week, and was quoted over 800 by MSL, local garage did it for 500. An extra 300 just for the privliage of the main dealership ?

Na...wont be back

ballooba

I went through a long SIMI complaints process with them. They are sheisters. I would never buy another VAG car after my experience with them. I later discovered the full extent of the problem when I went to fix something. Broken glass everywhere. :eek:

crosstownk

I find all MSL service departments terrible - Park Motors, Pottery Road, Turners Cross. They never call you back and they seldom fix things on the first attempt. If they break or damage something they never accept responsibility. It's top dollar for a less than useless service. I keep away from them.

ballooba

crosstownk wrote:

If they break or damage something they never accept responsibility.

Never mind tell you about it.;)

Bear in mind that these guys are also the distributors for Ireland. I would never buy another VAG car.

E92

They wont be distributors of VAG cars for too much longer. Come next year(I think, not 100% sure when exactly, but I know it will happen in the not too distant future), Volkswagen, Audi, and Skoda are taking over the importing of their own cars in Ireland from the O'Flaharty's(MSL). VAG are doing it themselves as and from then.

crosstownk

E92 wrote:

They wont be distributors of VAG cars for too much longer. Come next year(I think, not 100% sure when exactly, but I know it will happen in the not too distant future), Volkswagen, Audi, and Skoda are taking over the importing of their own cars in Ireland from the O'Flaharty's(MSL). VAG are doing it themselves as and from then.

It's MDL that is the importer/distributor of the cars. MSL is a subsiduary of MDL. MSL is the company that comprises Grange Motors, Ballsbridge Motors, Europa Cars, Park Motors, Turners Cross Motors and the MSL service centre on Pottery Road. I don't know whats going to happen to MSL when MDL no longer has the distrubition rights for VAG vehicles. I'd imagine that the MSL dealerships will continue to operate and still be operated by the O'Flaherty set up. But I do hope that VAG put a rocket up their ar$$es to try and improve the level of service - I won't hold my breath............

ballooba

The sales guy in Grange was genuinely helpful and seemed a bit dismayed at my experience. He actually had to call up there himself because they wouldn't answert the phone to him either. It's a pity the SIMI complaints stats aren't public. The again, why would they. :rolleyes:

DukeDredd

I also have a tale of woe with a VAG dealership: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054948396

Car has been sold in the meantime replaced with a non-VAG car - i couldn't stand the sight of it after this.

Last time i'll ever set foot in a VAG dealership.

R.O.R

ballooba wrote:

The sales guy in Grange was genuinely helpful and seemed a bit dismayed at my experience. He actually had to call up there himself because they wouldn't answert the phone to him either. It's a pity the SIMI complaints stats aren't public. The again, why would they. :rolleyes:

It was by any chance the Ginger Hammer himself, Mr. Simon Barrett? Possibly the most helpful saleman I've ever had the fortune to deal with, some others push him close but he's probably the shining star of MSL when it comes to service.

I'll second what Crosstownk says about the MSL dealers - try to avoid them at all costs - particulaly Park. I worked with the service manager briefly a couple of years ago somewhere before he left under a very black cloud. TBH Belgard are almost as bad though.

ballooba

R.O.R wrote:

It was by any chance the Ginger Hammer himself, Mr. Simon Barrett? Possibly the most helpful saleman I've ever had the fortune to deal with, some others push him close but he's probably the shining star of MSL when it comes to service.

No. Paul something. Older guy.

MercMad

I've had similar poor experinences with MSL. Once they badly damaged my new car before delivery !! Fair play to the salesman he gave me a new demo car whilst they ordered a new one for me !!

Then on my next car they scratched the alloy wheel and denied all knowledge of it, however that morning as I drove in I made the receptionist come out and look over every inch of the car including the wheels !

One new alloy thank you !!

I wouldn't go back, in fact I hate leaving my car in ANYWHERE ! The only place I've had a good experience with was Denis Mahoney. They fixed problems I hadn't reported for very little money. I was impressed, although they NEVER answered the phone which is frustrating when you are trying to arrange a lift !!

Henry Ford III

It's beyond me how this type of business remains trading.

Darragh29

ballooba wrote:

I went through a long SIMI complaints process with them.

Waste of time, the SIMI is nothing more than a talking shop/cigar and brandy room for main dealers.

Darragh29

R.O.R wrote:

TBH Belgard are almost as bad though.

Probably the most expensive and customer hostile service department in Ireland. Run by an absolute idiot who treats everyone he meets like sh*te. A self declared egomaniac.

Theboinkmaster

I bought a new golf from grange motors in jan - then last month a stone chip smashed one of the fog lamps so i needed it replaced.

Used MSL service centre in pottery road and will never ever do it again - they are a complete shambles. It took 2 weeks and a ridiculous amount of phone calls just to get a fog lamp replaced. I even dropped in the car for a full day as pre-arranged only to arrive back at 5pm to find they hadn't actually orded it in and i had to come back another day. The guy for VW, Trevor i think, is a complete shambles of a man - never again will i ever use MSL, if they can't fix something so simple as a fog lamp what chance would they have with a full service or something more elaborate.

Stay away is my advice (although the sales guy i used to buy my car, Karl, was excellent, very helpful and great after-sales service)

ballooba

Are the Nordies any better? I assume it's cheaper over the border?

crosstownk

The only VW dealer in the country that's any use is Newcastle West Autos in Limerick. Fantastic to deal with and problems are fixed first time (in so far as is possible). If they are any way convenient, use them.

As far as Belgard Motors is concerned, they may as well be MSL. Useless - no - worse than useless. I use them a lot, because of location, but they couldn't fix a broken washing line.

MadsL

Are the Nordies any better? I assume it's cheaper over the border?

A different world.

Book your car in for a service.
Drive up to Isaac Agnew, right off the motorway as you arrive into Belfast.
Park car, spot the 16 gleaming spotless service bays.
Walk into the showroom, the hostess welcomes you, apologises for the short wait to speak to a service representative, guides you to a café area where a waitress offers you fresh ground expresso machine coffee and a choice of fresh cream pastries.
If you want you can post on boards as there are three free web terminals.
You are then directed to your service representive who check if you have any special requirements and hand him/her the keys.
A driver will then drop into Belfast for shopping in a full leather A/C Vito Traveliner.
A call on your mobile indicates that your car is ready, would sir like to be collected?
Settle up, enjoy a last coffee before driving back.
Walk out, note that your car has been washed and wheel blacked.
Drive home feeling like a customer and not a victim.

Top notch - recommend them to anyone. Top tip, book in for a Republic Bank Holiday which is a working day in the north.

By contrast in Dublin Merc dealerships I have been;
1. Refused any discount for a car bought for cash - even offering to buy the demonstrator. I got the price I was after from the North.

2. Refused warrenty work after being told to bring the car in at 8am, it was still sitting outside 2 hours later, when I made a fuss, someone drove it into the bay. One hour later then was told they didnt have the part. The horn had stopped working - I pointed out that they were asking me to drive a car in an illegal condition so therefore they needed to give me a replacement while they sorted it out under warrenty. No courtesy cars. I then complained to the manager, or tried...he told me to f**k off. Literally.

3. Was lied to as to the ability of the dealership (MSL) to reprogramme a key for me. I'd lost my spare and the immobiliser had locked, leaving the car stranded. The car had to be reprogrammed to accept a new key. I knew MSL didnt have the software to do it. I was first told that they didnt have a service appointment for six weeks. I explained the situation and had a comedy conversation with the service manager.
"I just got told six weeks before you can reprogramme the car, it's a ten minute job, and I'm stranded"
"Ah, well, bring it in anyway, we might have a look at it if we get a chance"
"I have to tow it, can you arrange it?"
"No, you'll have to do that"
"Do you have the software to reprogramme the car"
"Ah, we'll have a look"
"Do you have the software?"
"We don't know whats wrong with yet"
"I do, it needs reprogramming, the car key battery is dead, and the immobiliser has reset"
"hmm, well...."
"Do you have the software?"
"errr...I'm not getting into that.."
"What?"
"Our relationship with manufacturer"
"So what the hell do you do if a car need diagnostics done?"
"Ah...deep breath...we sent it to Belfast"
"You have to be joking" Click.

/me calls Belfast
No problem. All sorted.

bazz26

crosstownk wrote:

The only VW dealer in the country that's any use is Newcastle West Autos in Limerick. Fantastic to deal with and problems are fixed first time (in so far as is possible). If they are any way convenient, use them.

I would agree with this. Even though I have never dealt with them myself I know people who have nothing but praise for their level of service, well as far as VW dealers go anyway.

MarkN

MSL Pottery are a disgrace, I'm not quite sure who the blame for the place lies with though, the staff you deal with at the desks are generally ok it's once it goes into the workshop when the problems start.

They broke trim on the dash of a car I had.

They destroyed the rub strip on the drivers door on a brand new Golf GTI of mine during the PDI - Grange copped it and made them pay for it.

They "fixed" an airbag light in the passenger seat of an Audi I had and failed to bolt the seat back to the floor, I found out about it when the seat decided to jump forward one day when I had to brake hard.

There is no way in this world I would trust them with my S3 now. I will either try Brady's Castleknock (anyone used them?) or drive to Cork where I bought my car when it needs a service. I am actually DREADING the day the computer thing tells me the car needs a service.

Darragh29

Just a question... Why are you people all going to hugely overpriced, dreadfully inefficient, customer repelling dealerships that are literally financially raping you when you go to them???

There are some excellent independent garages out there, they charge a fraction of what these saps are charging and they actually appreciate your business and will give you much better service. Why give these people your business??? They don't even appreciate your custom, they may as well poke you in the eye after taking your money, going by the stories I'm hearing here.

Before someone replies with, "they have the diagnostics computer", or something like that, so does any independent garage worth it's salt. The day is long gong when you "have to bring it back to the main dealer to fix that", so why are people still putting up with this???

ballooba

Yep, CrosstownK (I think) recommended a really good garage to me recently for timing belt change on the Passat. You actually feel like they appreciate your business.

Darragh29

ballooba wrote:

Yep, CrosstownK (I think) recommended a really good garage to me recently for timing belt change on the Passat. You actually feel like they appreciate your business.

You'd save a fortune getting this job done in a good independent garage. I can't get my head around people who have this mantra going on in their head, "I have to go to a main dealer, I have to go to a main dealer", to get charged 110 Euro labour a fu*kin hour by the likes of Belgard Motors, a shower of theiving cu*nts who's business rationale relies exclusively on there being enough stupid people out there to give them 300 Euro for an oil change.

For pig iron, lets price this job through a main dealer and through a random independent garage... As for an independent garage price, I did a timing belt & water pump on a 03 VW Passat, 1.6 Petrol. Timing belt kit was SKF (OEM quality item), water pump was supplied by VW. Customer was billed for just under 380 Euro, with a 12 month warranty on the job. I'll price this through the main dealer on Monday and see what it comes in at. Anyone got a main dealer price for this job before I start???

cregser

Wow - I nearly bought a car off MSL today! I had a price from another garage and decided to check Park Motors out because their list price started off lower.

But after waiting 10 minutes to get some attention (I wasn't just standing there, a free sales guy kept fobbing me off) - I left and went back to th original garage.

After reading this thread I'm glad I went with my instinct.

crosstownk

Darragh29 wrote:

Just a question... Why are you people all going to hugely overpriced, dreadfully inefficient, customer repelling dealerships that are literally financially raping you when you go to them???

Warranty.

For regular maintenance I use independents for all the reasons you state.

ballooba

Darragh29 wrote:

For pig iron, lets price this job through a main dealer and through a random independent garage... As for an independent garage price, I did a timing belt & water pump on a 03 VW Passat, 1.6 Petrol. Timing belt kit was SKF (OEM quality item), water pump was supplied by VW. Customer was billed for just under 380 Euro, with a 12 month warranty on the job. I'll price this through the main dealer on Monday and see what it comes in at. Anyone got a main dealer price for this job before I start???

Same job same car (exept 02). Water pump, fan belt, timing belt. €600. Independent garage.

JohnCleary

Maybe someone should ring MSL and inform them of this thread, see what they ahve to say for themselves?

jayok

Problem is they probably wouldn't say anything - just threaten legal action and get the thread removed, etc, etc. Better if people are aware of other people's experiences and can make the own decisions.

JohnCleary

jayok wrote:

Problem is they probably wouldn't say anything - just threaten legal action and get the thread removed, etc, etc. Better if people are aware of other people's experiences and can make the own decisions.

So in other words, 'Guilty as charged'

I reckon if what was said in this thread wasn't true, they'd at least defend themselves?

nmacc

I once bought a T4 Syncro on behalf of a company for which I worked. The rack failed at only 60k, so MDL agreed to supply a new rack FOC, but we had to pay for the install - hence MSL in Pottery Road.

Arriving to collect it at the appropriate time I was left hanging around as usual, so I gave the van the once-over. Oil and dirt on the upholstery, bonnet not shut, various clips left loose under the bonnet. Lots of yelling and ranting to the service manager and they dealt with the problems.

All seemed fine for a few weeks, until we discovered that they hadn't tightened up the rack bolts - it came adrift in use!

More ranting and threats of legal action - job redone.

Again all seemed well until we ran the van into some soft sand. When it came out the far side it had the most amazing case of toe-in I've ever seen. Turned out that MSL had used regular bolts to hold in the rack instead of the correct flanged ones. When the sand put the rack under pressure the bolt heads pulled clean through the bushes and the rack simply popped off!

We needed the van for the job and the company had other things to do, or there would undoubtedly have been a major lawsuit.

N.

MarkN

Darragh29 wrote:

Just a question... Why are you people all going to hugely overpriced, dreadfully inefficient, customer repelling dealerships that are literally financially raping you when you go to them???

As has been said, warranty.

You try getting ANY manufacturer to replace something in your car after you bring it to an independent garage and they will laugh you out of their service dept quicker than you can imagine!

Whoever put up a post about going to Belfast seems like a great idea.

BrianD3

Darragh29, where is your garage? 380 for a timing belt kit change on a Passat sounds like very good value indeed. I would imagine a Dublin main dealer would charge around 700-800.

If Belgard are indeed charging 110 labour per hour that is shocking but not all main dealers are that bad. The Renault main dealer that I sometimes use charges 60 per hour but that's outside Dublin and of course Renault is not a "prestige" make like VW :rolleyes: For comparsion, my favourite independent at the moment charges 35 per hour.

ballooba

BrianD3 wrote:

Darragh29, where is your garage? 380 for a timing belt kit change on a Passat sounds like very good value indeed. I would imagine a Dublin main dealer would charge around 700-800.

€1200 actually. I priced it a few months back when I was getting it done. The Independent charged €550 I think.

macrubicon

I am truely amazed that MSL in Pottery still get away with the same crap time and time again.

I have had long and painful issues....

I had a 99 Passat TDI, and it had a recall on something to do with the front suspension arm ( a bushing I seem to recall ). It had to go to MSL as Jetstar ( my normal service place ) were no longer allowed carry out warrenty work.

MSL clear the car as needing no work and away we go. Fast forward 3 months to when I drop the car into Jetstar for a service and to have a look at a bit of an off noise from the front suspension. Low and behold it was whatever part MSL had cleared from the warrenty recall.

So I contact MSL to inform them of a rather costly repair job done because they did not replace the part from the recall. They deny any issue. So onto MDL and the chap who issued the recall letter ( I keep all the letters and get them signed off by the garage just in case ) and after he sees the invoice from Jetstar he agrees that they will refund the cost of the parts. But I have to process the paperwork through MSL - Oh Dear...

We then enter into MSL stating that they cannot confirm that the part is genuine, we point out that the part was bought from them ! Still the same story.

The long and the short of it was that I was hung up on by the "customer service manager" after she would not accept that it was their part etc.

In the mean time, I had bought a new B6 Passat from Grange ( using the guy that we have been dealing with for years - he has been very good to us ) and our sales man refunded the cash just to get it closed fair play to him.

My new Passat has been back to MSL twice for warrenty work ( Recalls and a problem fuse with the demister on delivery ), but I leave it with Grange and my sales guy kindly provides a car for me if I need one and drops it up to MSL - he knows I just can't deal with them anymore...

I use Jetstar for all my normal servicing and they are great... I use MSL when I have no alternative. Always get your MSL rep to do a walkaround your car with you before and after - they are buggers for kerbing alloys by all accounts as well as other damage.

The guys behind the doors just don't seem to care about what they do. After the recall ( actually 4 jobs over 2 recalls that happened to arrive together ) the facia around the radio was not put back right - it was as clear as day as none of the lines joined and around buttons and dials were off. Rather than deal with them again, I simply sorted it myself. It's as if there is no quality control in what they do ( or just no quality at all ! )

MarkN

Sounds all so similar!!

They are just a bunch of cowboys.

The thing is I have found Grange Motors time and time again absolutely brilliant to deal with, used the same guy all the time etc but MSL Pottery let the dealers who no longer have a service dept. down so much.

I've have heard some good things about Sheehy's today too from someone who had the car serviced there.

JHMEG

MarkN wrote:

As has been said, warranty.

What does your manual say about this?

My car manual states that the warranty remains intact if the work is up to standard and OEM parts are used. It's very difficult to fsck up a regular service, so much so that I bypass the independents (even) and do all the work myself. Godammit the manual even tells the owner how to perform the service themselves!

randomer

Not sure if this will be a popular post, but I actually think MSL have improved dramatically in the last 12 to 18 months.

I had a some major problems with MSL in Pottery Road a couple of years ago, but eventually got it sorted. My car was in the dealers for over 9 months in my 18 months of ownership.

I now have a new car and have brought it to MSL four times in the last twelve months (twice for services, once for a break fix and one for a warranty issue) and I have to say that there is a huge difference in the service that I received and the athmosphere in the place.

I was out there most recently last week and I was getting a lift to my office from the taxi guy who works for MSL and I asked him what the difference was and he told me that there is a new general manager there and he has turned things around. All staff now work on a bonus scheme and a number of staff have left.

(I have just had a look at my post and it reads sort of like an MSL testimonial. Just to confirm, apart from having my car serviced there, I have no connections to MSL).

randomer

JHMEG wrote:

What does your manual say about this?

My car manual states that the warranty remains intact if the work is up to standard and OEM parts are used. It's very difficult to fsck up a regular service, so much so that I bypass the independents (even) and do all the work myself. Godammit the manual even tells the owner how to perform the service themselves!

That is correct. Provided you use the correct parts the warranty will be honoured by the manufacturer.

crosstownk

Once you can prove OEM parts and a qualified mechanic then your warranty remains intact. Nor are you bound to the place of purchase - your warranty is European with breakdown assistance across Europe. Forcing you to stay with main dealer servicing is tantamount to a cartel/monopoly and is prohibited by European law.

I'm not in the least surprised to see the responses here about MSL. Most people on this forum only have to visit the dealer 1,2 or 3 times year. More than 5 or 6 times if you're really unfortunate. I've to deal with the VW Service Depts (including MSL) every day of the week and believe me they are as bad as this thread portrays them and worse sometimes. If there was a name and shame thread I could run amok.

MarkN

So it seems your warranty can't be affected by going independent..

Point is though, you should be able to feel that going to a main dealer you are not going to be raped and that they are competent enough to fix/service your car.

Not everyone has a car that is an A to B job and just requires an oil and filter change and there's not enough specialist garages in this country (advertising their services anyway) to provide that service so it's easier to bring your high performance car or whatever to the company that represents the people who built it.

Ger the man

Buy a Japanese car.

MercMad

Despite what the warranty documents state, I think if you have a problem with a car still covered by warranty you will have a very hard job trying to persuade anyone at MDL/MSL that all work had been done to the "correct standard".

All they have to do is ask for relevant training certificates for the model in question. When you cant produce them........they'll give you the bird !! Its a sh1tty loophole that they will exploit !

Its a pity that there arent more "approved" independent specialist over here, as in the UK !

Ger the man

Why Japanese? I dont need to answer that question. It all depends how you view a car imo. This country has gone very materialistic in recent years and we all want bigger (so called 'prestige') brands, main dealers have copped onto this and are now ripping off the motorist. Its all about the size of your genitals and showing off! The end result is that you are still stuck on the M50 every morning behind the guy in the 92 micra and in front of the guy in 07 bmw. I honestly do not see the point in buying overpriced, overrated cars that are overloaded with sensors that monitor useless information. I once saw a guy broken down in a 07 merc s class, the bonnet up and smoke bellowing from it, a grey haired old man walked by and said to him "Should have bought a jap car son!" My neighbour drives a 92 corolla (320k on the clock, original engine and g/box)that laughs in the face of the nct every time its due
My 2c worth.

JHMEG

MarkN wrote:

Not everyone has a car that is an A to B job and just requires an oil and filter change

High performance or not, every car requires oil and a filter changes. Anyone competent with cars can do it.

As for high performance cars needing specialists at all any, well any good, experienced mechanic will be able to deal with any car. To a mechanic an S3 is a Golf with a turbo and 4WD...

whippet

Ger the man wrote:

Why Japanese? I dont need to answer that question. It all depends how you view a car imo. This country has gone very materialistic in recent years and we all want bigger (so called 'prestige') brands, main dealers have copped onto this and are now ripping off the motorist. Its all about the size of your genitals and showing off! The end result is that you are still stuck on the M50 every morning behind the guy in the 92 micra and in front of the guy in 07 bmw. I honestly do not see the point in buying overpriced, overrated cars that are overloaded with sensors that monitor useless information. I once saw a guy broken down in a 07 merc s class, the bonnet up and smoke bellowing from it, a grey haired old man walked by and said to him "Should have bought a jap car son!" My neighbour drives a 92 corolla (320k on the clock, original engine and g/box)that laughs in the face of the nct every time its due
My 2c worth.

yawn ..... I don't think I have ever heard that sort of comment before !!!

The reality is that some people (obviously not you) have a love of cars and of certian types of car .. if you don't get it, the motor forum is probably not the place for you.

I am stuck on the M50 twice a day .. it is a drag .. but when I get out of the city at evening and at the weekends I have a grin on my face due to the car I drive and to me that is worth the money I pay for it.

Personally I would prefer to be sitting in my car with it's creature comforts than a 20 year old micra !!

Back to the nature of the thread .. I bought my new VW from Belgard and they got the sale as I found them to be the nicest and most professional of all the VW dealers I called into or phoned. I had eleven weeks between order and delivery and not once did I have to call to chase the status of the order. I got a call almost every friday evening at about 5pm to let me know the latest.

But I must say that from Blackrock motors I didn't even get a call back when I requested a quote, Park Motors obliged with a test drive outside of hours but when I mentioned the pricing I got from other dealers they suddenly wouldn't even call me back .. no interest in my business.

I have no idea what Belgard will be like from an Aftersales slant but at least I know who not to deal with now! .

Ger the man

Like I said - 'It depends on how you view a car'. I know of countless storys of people giving out about german cars and they are not what they used to be. If you want reliability buy jap.

crosstownk

whippet wrote:

I have no idea what Belgard will be like from an Aftersales slant but at least I know who not to deal with now! .

Aftersales is a mess. All well and good if you just need regular servicing - but if you get a problem that's not straight forward to fix then you will have a whole different experience!!!

whippet

Ger the man wrote:

Like I said - 'It depends on how you view a car'. I know of countless storys of people giving out about german cars and they are not what they used to be. If you want reliability buy jap.

true to an extent, my previous motor was a VAG and appart from one lamba sensor I had no work done outside warranty and regular services over 4 years and 75k miles .. but to be honest I couldn't pay over my hard earned loot for a bland jap motor.

Ger the man

Weigh up being stranded on the side of the road against driving nicely along, I know which Id choose.

Bland?
Subaru Impeza Turbo, Legacy Turbo
Mitsubishi Evo, Nissan Skyline etc.

Lexus have sold more cars in the luxury market than anyone else in the last 2 years, closely followed by Honda.

whippet

Ger the man wrote:

Weigh up being stranded on the side of the road against driving nicely along, I know which Id choose.

Bland?
Subaru Impeza Turbo, Legacy Turbo
Mitsubishi Evo, Nissan Skyline etc.

Lexus have sold more cars in the luxury market than anyone else in the last 2 years, closely followed by Honda.

I have never been stranded on the side of the road and I have never driven a Jap car !!

of course there is a few jap cars that break the mould .. but loose all practicalities .. the Evos and WRX's do not have this mythical Jap bulletproofness .. so that sort of flies in the face of your argument.

The raw rally car isn't the type of car that would appeal to me or many others who like a bit of comfort with their performance.

As for the Lexus .... I would fall asleep looking at it .. never mind driving it. When you talk about luxuary .. are you talking about S-Class, & Series market or exec saloons .. 5Series, A6, E-Class ? Becuase if you look around the roads of ireland or the UK for every LS430 or GS300 you will see 10 or 15 S-Classs or 7 Series !!! I think you may have made that fact/argument up!!

As for Honda in the luxury market ... all they have is the Legend in that segment.. which they probably sell about 5 a year in Ireland !!!