Why should the Greens be in opposition rather than Govt.

K-9

I'm just wondering, why it would be better for the Greens to implement their policies if they are in opposition?

Fair enough, looks like they didn't get their Tara or Shannon policies, but if they where in opposition would it be anyway different?

Can they infuence Irish Environmental policy more by being in Govt. or opposition?

Heinrich

Seanies32 wrote:

I'm just wondering, why it would be better for the Greens to implement their policies if they are in opposition?

Fair enough, looks like they didn't get their Tara or Shannon policies, but if they where in opposition would it be anyway different?

Can they infuence Irish Environmental policy more by being in Govt. or opposition?

If they were in opposition their voice would have been heardat least, this way it will not. Is not and more likely to be seen as support for the FF line!

They run the great risk of being told what they can or cannot say or else!!! Saying that they can implement their policies by being in Government rather than out is so clichéd. They will only be allowed to do what Bertie decides.

bk

Heinrich wrote:

If they were in opposition their voice would have been heardat least, this way it will not. Is not and more likely to be seen as support for the FF line!

Are you kidding? They will get far more attention and far more press coverage in government then they would ever as a small opposition party.

Today we have Eamon Ryan on RTE news about breaking up the ESB and Mary Harney (yes PD's) tackling the consultants. Already two small partys getting big attention, yet you hear nothing from FG/Labour.

Seanies32 wrote:

Fair enough, looks like they didn't get their Tara or Shannon policies, but if they where in opposition would it be anyway different?

No, even in a FG/Labour government it probably won't have been any different, FG had already said that they would continue the M3 through Tara and that they wouldn't stop the Shannon stop-over.

Seanies32 wrote:

Can they infuence Irish Environmental policy more by being in Govt. or opposition?

In government obviously, don't for a moment underestimate the power you gain from being the minister of energy and the environment.

These are powerful positions and far more can be done then in opposition. Anyone who tells you otherwise is just an FG/Labour supporter who is pissed because the greens did the sensible thing and entered government with FF.

K-9

bk wrote:

Today we have Eamon Ryan on RTE news about breaking up the ESB and Mary Harney (yes PD's) tackling the consultants. Already two small partys getting big attention, yet you hear nothing from FG/Labour.


These are powerful positions and far more can be done then in opposition. Anyone who tells you otherwise is just an FG/Labour supporter who is pissed because the greens did the sensible thing and entered government with FF.

Time will tell but I do think they made the right decision. Hopefully Ryan is now prepared for the Union backlash from this and will stand his ground. It is the right thing to do and hopefully will also make it easier for wind farm operators to become serious suppliers to the grid.

Though always one of the obstacles, ironically, to wind farms, is the local planning opposition when they are suggested.

Although I'm not a fan of Harney politically, I do think she has the right intentions in the Health Service. She does want to reform it. The cynic in me, wonders what has been offered the consultants that something that they where so opposed to a month ago can now be acceptable by September?

Liam Byrne

They will get far more attention and far more press coverage in government then they would ever as a small opposition party.

Yup, you get LOTS of coverage when you sell out on two of your primary promises before your arse even lands on your seat!

More coverage, maybe, but not necessarily favourable.

Have I missed something here Liam.
Did the green party have stop the M3 and Shannon as it's primary promises?

Over and above anti global warming policies like ?

They are a 6% party and I'll bet they'll get a lot more than 6% of their policies implimented in government.

Crowing about shannon and the M3 when neither would have been stopped under an FG led government is frankly minority ranting at this stage.
But hey to each their own I say,this is a democracy all views are listened to,they're just not guaranteed implimentation.

Heinrich

Liam Byrne wrote:

Yup, you get LOTS of coverage when you sell out on two of your primary promises before your arse even lands on your seat!

More coverage, maybe, but not necessarily favourable.

I agree with this comment.

On another topic, apparently they are now saying that they are not satisfied with the Stamp Duty Carrot so let's see how that one shapes up. I reckon that even if Cowen had second thoughts on this particular issue Kaiser Bert will certainly not have! Toothless tiger comes to mind.

Looking forward to next Tuesday's Dail chat. I just wonder what hot air will come from Ryan's orifice...:D

Liam Byrne

Tristrame wrote:

Crowing about shannon and the M3 when neither would have been stopped under an FG led government is frankly minority ranting at this stage.

If FG had promised it, and then reneged on it, then I'd be just as harsh on them. People voted based on what they were promised, and The Greens have chosen not to deliver.

Their choice, and they can live with the consequences next time if people don't trust them anymore.

Mind you, given the number of failed promises FF had last time out (including the infamous "zero tolerance on crime and corruption", maybe the Irish voting public is all too aware that a politician's promises aren't worth the paper they've signed.......

Voipjunkie

Tristrame wrote:

Have I missed something here Liam.
Did the green party have stop the M3 and Shannon as it's primary promises?

Over and above anti global warming policies like ?

They are a 6% party and I'll bet they'll get a lot more than 6% of their policies implimented in government.

Crowing about shannon and the M3 when neither would have been stopped under an FG led government is frankly minority ranting at this stage.
But hey to each their own I say,this is a democracy all views are listened to,they're just not guaranteed implimentation.

I agree completely the other issue that is conveniently ignored is that if the Greens had taken the high moral ground and refused to deal with FF shannon flights would have continued and the road would still go through Tara. Greens in or out those were not going to change so the other things that the greens can achieve with 2 ministers are what counts.

If the Greens were really in a balance of power situation then they could have achieved more but they were not

Lennoxschips

they could have continued to build themselves up as a credible party in opposition.

the past ten years they have made good noises on health care, education, economy as well as being a hardcore green party concerned about energy, planning and transport. however they have compromised themselves on the non-green issues by caving into fianna fail's demands. they have thrown away all the effort they have put into becoming a mainstream party with a broad range of issues.

brianthebard

Most of my thoughts have already been mentioned, but a quick list;

-They said they wouldn't go into government with the PD's/FF
-They sold out on major policies that were supposed to be deal breakers
-They did not get FF to commit to anything real on any of their policies
-They are superflous to the governments voting needs and are only there in case an independent or two drops out over the next few years.
-They are already being bullied by FF-See the recent complaints by Green councillors who were allegedly being bullied into voting for FF senators.

Liam Byrne

brianthebard wrote:

Most of my thoughts have already been mentioned, but a quick list;

-They said they wouldn't go into government with the PD's/FF
-They sold out on major policies that were supposed to be deal breakers
-They did not get FF to commit to anything real on any of their policies
-They are superflous to the governments voting needs and are only there in case an independent or two drops out over the next few years.
-They are already being bullied by FF-See the recent complaints by Green councillors who were allegedly being bullied into voting for FF senators.

Then it's fair to say that any problems are of their own making......if they hadn't sold out they would have kept building on their credibility.

I'd see the Greens like a talented artist or sportsperson who had the potential and was continuously improving, but sold their soul to a greedy agent who wanted to get what they could out of them; not in the best interest of the talented individual with potential (Greens), but great in the short-term for the agent (FF), and if they burn out and go down in flames, the potential is lost (see next election) and the agent (FF) won't give a flying.........!

Liam Byrne

Liam Byrne wrote:

Then it's fair to say that any problems are of their own making......if they hadn't sold out they would have kept building on their credibility.

LoL You haven't got the "programme for government" or bust idea yet have you?
Not in government-no policies implimented at all sorry...
Or were you expecting 83 green seats anytime soon?

I'd see the Greens like a talented artist or sportsperson who had the potential and was continuously improving, but sold their soul to a greedy agent who wanted to get what they could out of them; not in the best interest of the talented individual with potential (Greens), but great in the short-term for the agent (FF), and if they burn out and go down in flames, the potential is lost (see next election) and the agent (FF) won't give a flying.........!

What are you saying there exactly?
That the talented individual should have none of his paintings viewed at all (opposition)? untill he can guarantee the gallery all to himself (83 seats)? Instead of the existing situation where he's letting some of them on view sharing the gallery with the other democratically elected artists who took a majority of spaces with their own different but more popular art.

Said artist was going to do the exact same thing if FG and Labour were the majority partner artists by the way.

As another poster pointed out here recently...Enda Kenny would stop the U.S shannon flights alright...but he's move them to Knock probably ...

Heinrich

Not in government-no policies implimented at all sorry...
Or were you expecting 83 green seats anytime soon?

The only "green" policies that will be implimented are those which correspond to those of Fianna Fail and even then that would depend on the whims of the beloved leader.:rolleyes:

That the talented individual should have none of his paintings viewed at all (opposition)? untill he can guarantee the gallery all to himself (83 seats)?

Never mind the 83 seats, if the talented (?) artist is masquerading as Vinny Van Gough and displays his masterpiece among the great artist's work then that's a no brainer!

So far all we have seen of the Green ministers is some posturing in the New York underground and big talk about litter fine increases for which the population of the Island is now cringeing.

Now let's get back to Planet Bertie before we lose the run of ourselves.:D

Heinrich

Heinrich wrote:

The only "green" policies that will be implimented are those which correspond to those of Fianna Fail and even then that would depend on the whims of the beloved leader.:rolleyes:

LoL
You seriously think that FF were going to impliment most of the Green Guff that they put in their manifesto?
Have a look at their past manifesto's and compare them to programmes for government...
Bear in mind that the greens programme for government means reality for what would otherwise have been a posture pen and ink woo of the feared green vote that was apparently showing up in the pre election polls.
A posture that would have ended up on the cutting room floor like most manifesto's ( I don't know why they bother with them or why they're given a halfworth of credence in the first place).

So far all we have seen of the Green ministers is some posturing in the New York underground and big talk about litter fine increases for which the population of the Island is now cringeing.

LoL again..
Thats not a very creditable critique of their involvement in this government given it's only 2 months old and the Dáil is in recess.

K-9

Fair enough, I can see why Green supporters think its a sell out.

Whats the alternative of the present Govt.?

Opposition for another 5 years? A Rainbow coalition? How would either of those be better for the Green agenda?

How would they get any change in Green policies through either of these?

Voipjunkie

brianthebard wrote:

Most of my thoughts have already been mentioned, but a quick list;

-They said they wouldn't go into government with the PD's/FF

No they did not

brianthebard wrote:

-They sold out on major policies that were supposed to be deal breakers

No Again they did not look at what the Greens said where the deal breakers during the election campaign

brianthebard wrote:

-They did not get FF to commit to anything real on any of their policies

matter of opinion but I think it is beyond doubt that their are things in their that would not have appeared in a FF/PD program for government and Gormley has shown the difference a green minister can have by overturning the bad planning decisions by Monaghan CC.

brianthebard wrote:

-They are superflous to the governments voting needs and are only there in case an independent or two drops out over the next few years.

So what is your point they are not in a balance of power situation so they have les power than they would have if they were ( so what they should sit with FG and Lab on the opposition benches and hope RTE or the grim reaper will do them a favour.

brianthebard wrote:

-They are already being bullied by FF-See the recent complaints by Green councillors who were allegedly being bullied into voting for FF senators.

No the greens if they were being bullied it was by their own leadership not FF

Voipjunkie

Lennoxschips wrote:

they could have continued to build themselves up as a credible party in opposition.

the past ten years they have made good noises on health care, education, economy as well as being a hardcore green party concerned about energy, planning and transport. however they have compromised themselves on the non-green issues by caving into fianna fail's demands. they have thrown away all the effort they have put into becoming a mainstream party with a broad range of issues.

They have not built up anything in the last ten years they gained 4 TDs 5 years ago and were lucky to hold on to that number this time their vote was pretty static

And it says a lot that you would prefer them to make "good noises" on important issues than actually have to make decisions
The reality of government and opposition is that in opposition you do not have to compromise on anything you can be gung ho for or against any particular issue you can promise the sun moon and stars safe in the knowledge that someone else has to pay the cheques.
being in power means having to compromise not being able to deliver everything personally I would prefer the greens there having a voice on what the priorities are rather than leave it to FF/PDs and indos for 5 more years than have the greens make the right noises but deliver nothing for 5 years.

Húrin

Liam Byrne wrote:

If FG had promised it, and then reneged on it, then I'd be just as harsh on them. People voted based on what they were promised, and The Greens have chosen not to deliver.

Their choice, and they can live with the consequences next time if people don't trust them anymore.

It's the failure of the Irish people to vote more Greens into the Dail. Do you think the Greens should act as if the Irish don't deserve any kind of self-government, and barge every manifesto promise through - based on their mere 6-seat mandate?

K-9

H&#250 wrote: »

It's the failure of the Irish people to vote more Greens into the Dail. Do you think the Greens should act as if the Irish don't deserve any kind of self-government, and barge every manifesto promise through - based on their mere 6-seat mandate?

Good point well made. And people say FF are arrogant with 41% of the vote!

Lennoxschips

And it says a lot that you would prefer them to make "good noises" on important issues than actually have to make decisions

No. I said they made good noises on health, education and the economy as well as being concerned about the traditional green issues.

My problem is that they have rubber stamped things like co-location hospitals, which totally goes against the things they were saying on the health front. There's compromise and then there's complete and total selling out.

Basically they are going back to becoming a fringe green party only concerned about environment issues (except for Tara, it would seem) when they looked like they could have been much more.

But there's no use in us arguing, the voters will have their say next time around and I think it will be quite emphatic as far as the greens are concerned.