No Manhunt 2 in the UK

koneko

Pending appeal, of course, but it's looking grim:

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/27545/BBFC-rejects-Manhunt-2

"BBFC rejects Manhunt 2Ben Parfitt Today, 11:45am
British Classification body rules Rockstar cannot release upcoming PS2 and Wii sequel in the UK
With Take 2 already in turmoil following the recent company-wide restructuring, the group has been dealt another blow with the news that Rockstar’s upcoming sequel Manhunt 2 has been rejected by the BBFC, meaning it cannot legally be supplied anywhere in the UK.

The only other game to ever be rejected by the body was Carmageddon in 1997, though that decision was overturned by the Video Appeals Committee."

http://www.bbfc.co.uk/website/Classified.nsf/0/9549A008B065EDD2802572FF003BE6ED?OpenDocument
(Says Rejected at the top of the page)

Crucifix

Are there many blanket bans for media these days (movies and books aswell as games)?
That sucks though. I probably wasn't going to play it, but it still sucks

bizmark

BUUUUUURRRRRRRRRNNNNN THE BOOOKS1!!!!!! :rolleyes:

Honestly i seen some god awful film called hostel a while back which had poeple getting their eye's burned out and knee cap's drilled how is this game worse than that?.

Great liveing in a nanny/semi police state i guess

mcgovern

The problem is we tend to copy whatever they do so that could see a ban here too.

projectmayhem

it would be more significant if people in the UK couldn't order online...

evad_lhorg

wow thats crazy. it must be really good

DarkJager

Some kid gets stabbed by another kid who just happened to play Manhunt, and the media gets into a frenzy over it??? Now its sequel gets banned directly because of that?? Sometimes I'd just really love to get all of these moral high ground preachers, pack them into a boat and then set it alight when they get out to sea....

koneko

The "Average Joe" doesn't order online (Game's profits prove that, heh).

I wonder what this means for an Irish release though, even if there is no censor stopping it, our games are normally the UK version/SKU. If there is no UK version, will there be an Irish release at all?

SeantheMan

Would it not have to go to the Irish Censors though isntead of the BBFC ??

koneko

Well, as I said, aside from possible censors, the actual games we get are normally the UK versions, if there is no UK version, what happens here?

As far as censorship goes, the IFCO (Irish Film Censors Office) say:

"Does IFCO classify video games?

Under the Video Recordings Act 1989 video games are exempt from classification unless they are deemed prohibitable under section 3 (1) of the Act.

Ireland, along with 15 other European countries, is a member of PEGI, an organisation which produces age ratings for video games. To learn more about this system the PEGI website is www.pegi.info"

projectmayhem

DarkJager wrote:

Sometimes I'd just really love to get all of these moral high ground preachers, pack them into a boat and then set it alight when they get out to sea....

would you not want to stab them in the face with a shard of glass. you know, because you play video games?

Retr0gamer

I'm predicting this game will be **** but still it's bad news. We could have a 'videogame nasties' ban list on our hands and end up with the stupid censorship that German games go through.

I've said it before and I'll say it now, these type of games which are just violence for the sake of violence are going to end up damaging the games industry. It's easy to defend a game which uses stylistic violence such as Resident Evil but very hard to defend a game like Manhunt which contains a lot of violence for absolutely no reason other than to portray very violent deaths. Of course when these games inevitably get banned or become scapegoats it doesn't reflect on just the game but is unfairly levelled at the entire industry and videogame medium. This is the reason I have such a dislike for games such as Postal 2 and Manhunt.

DarkJager

I'd love to stab them in the face, but that would get me 5 stars from the police and I don't have enough money to get the car resprayed

johnny_ultimate

Set's a bad precedent alright, and can only promote more anti-gaming crusades. The fact that only stories like this or the recent Manchester Cathedrel farce are the only ones to break into the popular media says alot.
However, I think the banning could in fact be due to the Wii version existing. This is the first game to really use the Wiimote for some of it's more 'questionable' possibilities. For some reason, it may also be the last.

Beelzebub

It's available on Amazon.co.uk for pre-order.

jhegarty

DarkJager wrote:

Some kid gets stabbed by another kid who just happened to play Manhunt, and the media gets into a frenzy over it???

Didn't it turn out it was the victim owned the game and it was over drug money anyway ?

christophicus

Retr0gamer wrote:

I'm predicting this game will be **** but still it's bad news. We could have a 'videogame nasties' ban list on our hands and end up with the stupid censorship that German games go through.

The game got over 90% in Ngamer apparently.

DarkJager

Yeah but you know how it is: kid owns violent videogame, kills someone/gets killed himself and suddenly the game is blamed for it. People never think of questioning human beings stupidity and mental imbalance, its entertainment thats to blame at the end of the day.

Frankmagnet

I work in Gamestop and we havent heard anything. Got more dummy boxes yesterday to advertise pre-books

F-Stop

Just posted this in the other thread.

According to IFCO it'll be prohibited here too.

A prohibition order has been made by IFCO in relation to the video game Manhunt 2. The Order was made on 18th June 2007 under Sec 7 (1) (b) of the Video Recordings Act 1989 which refers to ‘acts of gross violence or cruelty (including mutilation and torture)’.

IFCO recognizes that in certain films, DVDs and video games, strong graphic violence may be a justifiable element within the overall context of the work. However, in the case of Manhunt 2, IFCO believes that there is no such context, and the level of gross, unrelenting and gratuitous violence is unacceptable.

johnny_ultimate

F-Stop wrote:

Just posted this in the other thread.

According to IFCO it'll be prohibited here too.

And the battle of free speech -v- anti gaming zealots begins.

DarkJager

Can members of the public make an appeal against this censorship or are these bastards just allowed to decide it like that?

No big loss, the first Manhunt game wasn't exactly great and I've seen nothing about this that makes it look any better. The games only selling point is its violence. Is that really what appeals to people when they buy this game?

DarkJager

Its not the point of it being Manhunt, its the fact that its setting a bad stadard for censorship. Any game now deemed to be too violent could legally be prohibited which would eventually lead us to being only able to buy dumbed down kiddies games

johnny_ultimate

DarkJager wrote:

Its not the point of it being Manhunt, its the fact that its setting a bad stadard for censorship. Any game now deemed to be too violent could legally be prohibited which would eventually lead us to being only able to buy dumbed down kiddies games

Indeed. I don't have any intention to buy the game but it somewhat annoys me that this is the first thing to be banned in Ireland in a long while as I understand it. The game may be violent, but is banning it the solution? Look at Germany - green blood only, and games such as Gears of War being outright banned. Do we want this?

They only banned manhunt 2 because there was nothing else in it besides the violence. It apparently had nothing else to offer in terms of gameplay. I dont think that the censors here will go down the route that Germany has. As long as the game developers are some way sensible with the content in their games there shouldnt be any trouble. Look at the violence in Resident Evil 4, that got past the censor no problem because he thought that it wasnt just about killing people as violently as possible.

thelordofcheese

DarkJager wrote:

Its not the point of it being Manhunt, its the fact that its setting a bad stadard for censorship. Any game now deemed to be too violent could legally be prohibited which would eventually lead us to being only able to buy dumbed down kiddies games

leaving out the sweeping generalisation that non-violent games are "dumbed down kiddies games", i have to agree it might set a dangerous precedent.

I say might because we don't really know what the contents of the game are. Maybe there is a proper reason that it's been banned as opposed to some knee-jerk reaction to some news story a few years back (which seems a little unlikely to me).
If its nothing but violence, then to be honest i've no problem with this

Beelzebub

This is making me mad, mad enough to want to fcuk someone up real bad!:eek:

DarkJager

If it was a game where you were just out to kill people in the most violent way possible for no reason at all, and with no storyline of any sort to explain the need for you to kill, then I see why it would be banned. But I would highly doubt that such a game would be made in the first place...every game no matter how bad it is has some story to it..

Crucifix

Deleted User wrote:

Look at the violence in Resident Evil 4, that got past the censor no problem because he thought that it wasnt just about killing people as violently as possible.

Some regions had various bits censored for RE4. Decapitations removed and the like.

Timans

I think it's a good decision tbh. Maybe it will stop companies making bland, boring games which the only objective is to kill things with no real goal.

F-Stop

DarkJager, you can email them at info@ifco.gov.ie I'd be interested in what they say, but I can't imagine there is any sort of appeal process for something like this.

I found the first Manhunt pretty brutal, and pretty repetitive after a while - I probably wouldn't shell out the money for this one. I do understand the notion of protecting children - that's what ratings and parents are for.

I'm an adult, I don't need to be babysat, and I can judge things for myself. I'd be interested to see the content of this game and view how the context of the work and the "the level of gross, unrelenting and gratuitous violence" compares with recent movies like the Saw trilogy and Hostel. I don't believe that it is just the content - gratuitous violence - but also the medium - it being a game - that has led to it being banned. If that is the case I disagree with the decision. Of course, as the censor has decided that my adult mind isn't well formed enough to judge this I will never know.

Beelzebub

Seriously though I reckon that no publicty is bad publicity and this game will sell like hot cakes where it's available, as a result.
Like it did for the first in the series.

It remains to be seen whether Rockstar will appeal this decision.
Interestingly the only other game to have been banned by the BBFC was Carmageddon in 1997 which won on appeal.

I can't see Rockstar take this lying down.

Beelzebub

F-Stop wrote:

DarkJager, you can email them at info@ifco.gov.ie I'd be interested in what they say, but I can't imagine there is any sort of appeal process for something like this.

I found the first Manhunt pretty brutal, and pretty repetitive after a while - I probably wouldn't shell out the money for this one. I do understand the notion of protecting children - that's what ratings and parents are for.

I'm an adult, I don't need to be babysat, and I can judge things for myself. I'd be interested to see the content of this game and view how the context of the work and the "the level of gross, unrelenting and gratuitous violence" compares with recent movies like the Saw trilogy and Hostel. I don't believe that it is just the content - gratuitous violence - but also the medium - it being a game - that has led to it being banned. If that is the case I disagree with the decision. Of course, as the censor has decided that my adult mind isn't well formed enough to judge this I will never know.

You are wrong, there is an appeal process for something like this!
And Rockstar do have the right to appeal

http://www.bbfc.co.uk/downloads/pub/Submitting%20Companies/Video_Appeals_Committee_Terms.pdf

from here:
http://news.spong.com/article/12920?cb=797

F-Stop

Beelzebub,

You are linking to the BBFC appeal not IFCO. I don't doubt that Rockstar can appeal it, but as I said I can't "imagine" that there is any sort of appeal process that DarkJager can follow. But thanks anyway.

Jack Thompson is probably dancing right now.

Retr0gamer

DarkJager wrote:

If it was a game where you were just out to kill people in the most violent way possible for no reason at all, and with no storyline of any sort to explain the need for you to kill, then I see why it would be banned. But I would highly doubt that such a game would be made in the first place...every game no matter how bad it is has some story to it..

See the problem is that is what the first Manhunter was all about. You just snuck around killing people in the most violent way possible, getting extra points for how violent the death was. There wasn't even any skill just the more you held down the button the gorier the death. There was a story, something about being kidnapped and forced to do a snuff movie or die trying but it wasn't exactly explaining why the game had to be so violent. I predict the second game follows exactly the same lines as the previous one.

It really is Rockstars own fault that this got banned. Making a game like this with not one good defense for the excessive use of violence was just asking to be banned by a government body for a government which is becoming increasingly PC.

Somebody mentioned it got 90% but the first Manhunter game got some very high scores despite being absolute tosh. I have to say shame on Rockstar for releasing a game that not only will be absolute tosh like the first one (opinion pending but see if I'm wrong if it's out) but also has opened the floodgates for more videogame bannings and mouth piece politicans looking for votes from the political correctness crowd and probably also damaging the industry that they work in.

I haven't played the game but I severely doubt it will have a moving story or even one that remotely justifies the violence portrayed in it.

super_furry

I think the fact that the Wii controls actually require you to physically perform the actions taking place on screan don't help. They remove another barrier between you and the action taking place on screen. To stab someone, you have to make a stabbing motion.

Incidently, everyone mentions Carmaggedon as being the only previously banned game, but wasn't Thrill-Kill on the PSX banned too?

thelordofcheese

super_furry wrote:

I think the fact that the Wii controls actually require you to physically perform the actions taking place on screan don't help. They remove another barrier between you and the action taking place on screen. To stab someone, you have to make a stabbing motion.

Incidently, everyone mentions Carmaggedon as being the only previously banned game, but wasn't Thrill-Kill on the PSX banned too?

i don't think thrill-kill was ever released, but it probably would have been

Beelzebub

F-Stop wrote:

Beelzebub,

You are linking to the BBFC appeal not IFCO. I don't doubt that Rockstar can appeal it, but as I said I can't "imagine" that there is any sort of appeal process that DarkJager can follow. But thanks anyway.

Apologies.

Rockstar would need to appeal themselves, they being the aggrieved party.
And I expect that they will.
I'm not sure they would bother appealing to IFCO though.

I am also not sure if a member of the public has the right to appeal the IFCO's decision.


Here is the process:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1989/en/act/pub/0022/sec0010.html

Edit: It's only the distributor who can appeal.

Retr0gamer

Thrill Kill was cancelled and the core game was used for Wu-Tang: taste the pain. There's a completed version of Thrill Kill floating around the intraweb.

DarkJager

In the UK, both parents of murder victim Stefan Pakeerah lashed out at Rockstar for confirming the release of a sequel. Stefan Pakeerah was murdered by Warren Leblanc, who was reportedly inspired by Manhunt (though it was later determined by police that robbery was the motive) and is now serving a life sentence for murder. Patrick and Giselle Pakeerah insist that Warren Leblanc was influenced by Manhunt before assaulting their son, Stefan – despite the judge in Leblanc’s court case dismissing the game of any blame. Mr. Pakeerah, who has campaigned for tighter restrictions on violent games since his son’s death back in 2004, stated: "I'm very disappointed. This is rubbing salt into the wounds in the month we will be marking the anniversary of Stefan's death."

Leicester East MP Keith Vaz has backed both parents, and in his words was "astonished" that producer Rockstar had made a sequel. Mr. Vaz added: "It is contempt for those who are trying very hard to ensure something is done to control the violent nature of these games."

A spokesman for Rockstar told MCV: "The transcript of the Leblanc court case makes it quite clear that the Judge, defence, prosecution and Leicester police all emphasized that Manhunt played no part in the case." It has also become clear that Warren Leblanc was not in possession of the game and ironically, Stefan Pakeerah, aged 14, owned a copy, despite it being legally restricted to 18+ in the UK.

Just seems like his parents don't want to place the blame on anything else. I don't see how making a sequel to a game, which had absolutely nothing to do with his death, is "rubbing salt in the wounds". People really need to get down off their ****ing high horses....

calsatron

I'd say the five (out of six) board members at Take-Two that got the boot at the last sharholders meeting would probably argue that not all publicity is good publicity.

evad_lhorg

Just have to buy it fro mainland europe or AUS now

Rhyme

To be perfectly honest, the game can wait. I bought the first one a month or two back and even though it was an interesting game with some nice touches with the stealth elements and enemy AI, it wouldn't warrant an instant purchase of any sequel. The nice touches in the Wii version are certainly worth a look although perhaps the near perfect 1:1 interaction between you, the Wiimote, a blunt object and an enemies head will get people riled up for months to come.

Once Datel release a Wii-loader (Freeloader :rolleyes: ) all my Wii games will come from the US anyway so these European debacles will fade away.

MooseJam

I will buy this game, damn disgraceful decision to ban

DarkJager

Rockstar makes a statement on the ban:

http://breakingnews.ie/entertainment/mhkfojgbcwgb/

They've really said everything that needs to be said about adult videogames and I'm hoping for the sake of the videogame industry that they appeal this ridiculous decision and win.

o1s1n

Retr0gamer wrote:

See the problem is that is what the first Manhunter was all about. You just snuck around killing people in the most violent way possible, getting extra points for how violent the death was. There wasn't even any skill just the more you held down the button the gorier the death. There was a story, something about being kidnapped and forced to do a snuff movie or die trying but it wasn't exactly explaining why the game had to be so violent. I predict the second game follows exactly the same lines as the previous one.

You were going to be executed. Rather then dying, you wake up and are suddenly starring in a snuff film. You have to commit more violent acts as obviously that is what "The Director" wants so that it will make a better snuff film. This adequately explains why the game is so violent.

Retr0gamer wrote:

It really is Rockstars own fault that this got banned. Making a game like this with not one good defense for the excessive use of violence was just asking to be banned by a government body for a government which is becoming increasingly PC.

There was a reason for the excessive violence in the first Manhunt game. Which I just outlined. It was part of the plot. Maybe a dark one at that. But still a plot. "making a game like this with not one good defense for excellsive violence"? Have you played the game? No you have not. Therefore, you don't know the reasons for the violence. You're just going the same way all those anti violence in videogame campaigners did back in the nineties with Night Trap and Carmageddon. Condemning a game without even playing it.

Retr0gamer wrote:

Somebody mentioned it got 90% but the first Manhunter game got some very high scores despite being absolute tosh. I have to say shame on Rockstar for releasing a game that not only will be absolute tosh like the first one (opinion pending but see if I'm wrong if it's out) but also has opened the floodgates for more videogame bannings and mouth piece politicans looking for votes from the political correctness crowd and probably also damaging the industry that they work in.

I agree that this does add fuel to the anti violence in videogame crowd. However, these people are just wrong. We can't disallow development companies from making certain games to tip toe around these people. And to add to that, the first Manhunt was not absolute tosh. I enjoyed it. And I'm sure others did too.

Retr0gamer wrote:

I haven't played the game but I severely doubt it will have a moving story or even one that remotely justifies the violence portrayed in it.

Not all games need to fill the same criteria. Not all games need to have moving stories. Games should be allowed to explore darker subjects. Films do it. Why shouldn't games?

Oh and just to add, the bbfc recently did a study which concluded that "Video games less engrossing than television" It's worth a read actually.

We were particularly interested to see that this research suggests that, far from having a potentially negative impact on the reaction of the player, the very fact that they have to interact with the game seems to keep them more firmly rooted in reality. People who do not play games raise concerns about their engrossing nature, assuming that players are also emotionally engrossed. This research suggests the opposite; a range of factors seems to make them less emotionally involving than film or television."

Rhyme

o1s1n wrote:

Night Trap

Oh God...

...i don't think it was just the violence the campaigners didn't like about Night Trap.

There is no denying that Rockstar bump up the 'content*' in their games to get people talking and bring a bit of media coverage their way to boost awareness and sales. Perhaps the sensible argument against their games is that they turn up the controversy solely for the publicity and as such, the excessive violence etc might add nothing to the game.

*by content i mean violence, gore, swearing, drugs, drink, crime etc...

o1s1n

Do they really beef up the violence though? Grand theft auto may have been violent in that you can kill "innocent" bystanders. However, the levels of gore/blood/dismemberment is very low. Especially when compared with some other first person shooters out there that haven't received nearly as much media attention. Manhunt 2 was gory. But you yourself weren't really committing the acts. You just watch a playback. Something like Soldier of Fortune is much more graphic in this regard as you're the one doing the mutilating.

Gore and violence have been in games for years. It's nothing new. The first game I ever remember play was Barbarian on the Spectrum. You would behead your opponent and then a little imp like thing would drag his head off screen. Banning one game and not the other is pure hypocrisy in my book. What, you can multilate a face in Soldier of Fortune but not Manhunt 2?

I think Rockstar could be considered media whores to a certain degree. Although, with people out there like Jack Thompson having a go at them all the time, I don't blame them.

steviec

The BBFC have a very good record for being very reasonable and even went to the lengths of making statements defending games that had been banned in other countries. They haven't banned a game in ten years so I'm sure Manhunt 2 must have done something a lot worse than Manhunt 1.

I think the difference between this and a horror movie is that you are actually the one doing the killing, and killing people is the only source of entertainment the game provides. In movies there is certainly gore, but the protagonists are usually the victims and they're the ones you sympathise with, I don't think there's a film out there that's shown entirely through the eyes of a killer as he goes around murdering people in an ever more gorey fashion, and if there was I'd imagine it would be banned too.

Of course it's easy for me to say since I think it's likely a poor game that gives our industry a bad name and just makes money by being controversial rather than by having good gameplay, if you actually wanted the game I guess you'd see things differently.