OMG I'm a Fool!

Huggles

Oh God!

I'm sat in work (yes on a Saturday)! My boss made a dreadful mistake and sent me a list of salaries for all staff in the office (it was meant for the accountant).

Now a little background. I am a in a creative role with 4 and a half years industry experience. When I started this job I was running from my old place which was a total kip. No talking, no breaks etc. So this was supposed to be a stop gap till I got myself something more permanent. Anyways, it turned out thet I really got on great with the boss and we had a great rapport so I guess I forgot about moving on.

When I started here we had very little structure and procedures and was recently told that we are where we are now....solely because of me. He tells me the sunshines out of my arse....grand, praise is nice. I work very hard, I love what I do and if we have a deadline I push hard to make it (working weekends, no overtime).

Now, heres the issue. In this email I see the office waste of space is on twice my monthly after tax plus he gets a commission of 2k. That really pissed me off as we all carry him. But what reallllllllllllly pissed me off is that the office junior is on the same money as me!!!!!! He is only just in the door!

What the hell do I do? I like the job, I like the clients, the location really suits me...I don't want to leave, but can't be taken for a fool either.

All advice welcome :mad:

feylya

Ask for a raise?

Huggles

feylya wrote:

Ask for a raise?

Yes, but he will probably say no and i think it bothers me more that it has happened this way..........Know what I mean? :mad:

edanto

So maybe he will say no. That's negotiating! Search the web for ways to make a well formed raise request, there's lots about it.

From his point of view, he want to have you on the minimum wage that you will accept.

So really, it's up to you to stand up for yourself. Good luck.

ps He knows that he sent them to you by mistake, so the best time to start this is now. information is paowweer!

wba88

maybe an ultimatum if you r so valuable to the firm???

Bulmers

agreed, he knows he sent it to you so it cant be ignored now by either you or your boss..

I would have no issues about going into him with the email, and just say what you've said in the previous post, dont be afraid to up yourself and make the point of the waste of space in the office that he is a waste of space and gets more than you...

You cant let it go, have to go face to face to him.

Huggles

Thanks everyone so far

God I am livid :mad:

edanto

Well then it's probably a good thing that this happened on a saturday and not Monday morning. The worst headstate that you can take into negotiating is anger.

Work out what you want, work out what you have to say to him to get it.

Taking a long shot at guessing the dynamic between you, it might help your confidence if you can have the raise meeting somewhere other than his office - go out for a coffee or something?

Saruman

In fact, if you do nothing about it he will think less of you!! Seriously.. unless he knows nothing about email and cant tell he sent it to you instead, then he knows full well. So if you do not approach him about it and ask for a raise then he will see you as having no spine and will have you on your current salary for ever.

Could also be a test... doubt it but he might have sent it to you, if you do nothing then you fail.. if you do then he was right and you are promotion material You never know.

Huggles

edanto wrote:

Well then it's probably a good thing that this happened on a saturday and not Monday morning. The worst headstate that you can take into negotiating is anger.

Work out what you want, work out what you have to say to him to get it.

Taking a long shot at guessing the dynamic between you, it might help your confidence if you can have the raise meeting somewhere other than his office - go out for a coffee or something?

That is great advice. I will tell him I want to meet him in local coffee shop on Monday, thanks.

Huggles

Saruman wrote:

Could also be a test... doubt it but he might have sent it to you, if you do nothing then you fail.. if you do then he was right and you are promotion material You never know.

LOL true BUT my first name is same as accountants so it looks like an oversight on his part.

I am more feeling stupid than angry now....feel like i have been played :mad:

Any employers reading out there, can you tell me would you pay a woman in same job as a guy, less.....honestly...?

B00MSTICK

Go for the raise, from what you've said you deserve it.

Darragh29

TheGooner wrote:

I am more feeling stupid than angry now....feel like i have been played :mad:

Well you have let yourself be totally played. Your boss was happy enough to play to your ego and fill your head full of notions about the company revolving around you while paying you peanuts for being his lap dog. If your not happy, just leave, thats my advice.

Darragh29

TheGooner wrote:

Any employers reading out there, can you tell me would you pay a woman in same job as a guy, less.....honestly...?

You cannot do otherwise, its illegal, but more importantly, its unethical and wrong.

Beelzebub

TheGooner wrote:

That is great advice. I will tell him I want to meet him in local coffee shop on Monday, thanks.

I'm not sure the coffee shop is the best idea.
It's a casual environment maybe he won't take you seriously there.
By having it in his office and thus keeping it formal and business like might be a better idea.

Because he seems to be taking you for granted, it's up to you to make your feelings known and I'm not sure the coffee shop is the ideal location for that.

Nordie

I wouldn't like it if someone took advantage of me like that and would definately leave the Company.

Huggles

Beelzebub wrote:

I'm not sure the coffee shop is the best idea.
It's a casual environment maybe he won't take you seriously there.
By having it in his office and thus keeping it formal and business like might be a better idea.

Because he seems to be taking you for granted, it's up to you to make your feelings known and I'm not sure the coffee shop is the ideal location for that.

The trouble with the office is that it is familar territory and he can get around me by being nice and fobbing me off. If its somewhere neutral ill be able to air my issues and be taken seriously, hopefully.

Huggles

Darragh29 wrote:

Well you have let yourself be totally played. Your boss was happy enough to play to your ego and fill your head full of notions about the company revolving around you while paying you peanuts for being his lap dog. If your not happy, just leave, thats my advice.

I know that NOW. Sadly it took my to see this email to realise.

I am going to take tomorrow and draft up my requests. Will post back here and see if folk think its reasonable.

Thanks again all

Huggles

Nordie wrote:

I wouldn't like it if someone took advantage of me like that and would definately leave the Company.

I see what you mean but I think my thinking on it is that he knows how much I am worth so I might be as well pushing to GIVE ME what I am worth

Ballyman

From his point of view, he's not taking advantage of you at all. You have no right to be livid. When you were hired you were given an opportunity to negotiate your salary. You to get the highest you can and him to give you the lowest he can. I presume you were happy with your salary when hired.

You can now though, with this new info you;ve come across, put together a valid rasie request. Again, it is up to you to negotiate as high a salary as you can on this occasion.

I would refrain from mentioning the "waste of space" though. What you might think as a waste of space might be viewed very differently by your bosses.

Darragh29

TheGooner wrote:

I know that NOW. Sadly it took my to see this email to realise.

I am going to take tomorrow and draft up my requests. Will post back here and see if folk think its reasonable.

Thanks again all

What you've said above is part of the problem. Your perception of yourself within this workplace I fear is not at all accurate. Your not Jackie Healy Rae going up to a Taoiseach who desperately needs support! The language you are using above about "drafting up requests", tells me that you are heading for a showdown while under an illusion that you are in a position of power.

Another thing you are forgetting to think about is that after you have this conversation with your boss, he is going to know that there has been a serious breach of confidentiality (on his part) that can only be rectified by you being shown the door, (don't forget, he won't be going anywhere over this!). He can't have a situation whereby you know exactly how much everyone else is being paid and it could all come out on Friday night after a few after work beers. The only way you can benefit from this situation is to pretend you never got the e-mail, hand in your notice, when he gets it and IF he wants to keep you on, just say that you need more money and you've been offered another job. All things being equal, IF you are as valued by your boss as you appear to believe, and IF you are one of the lowest paid people there, you will be given a raise to keep you on board and nobody loses face.

If I was your boss and you came up to me with a story about having received an e-mail from me with everyone's salary details on it and you started telling me that you should be getting paid X on the basis of someone else being paid Y, I'd be getting you to get the fu*k out of my sight and not to be telling me how to run my business. I'd tell you if you weren't happy, get the fu*k out the door.

A wise man once told me that when you decide to leave a job, you might think that it causes rippes in the place of your employment and that those ripples might be big enough to cause someone in authority to keep you on board, but in reality, handing in your notice to an employer is like having your hand in a bowl of water and then taking your hand out. You'll see rippes for maybe 20-30 seconds and then the surface returns to normal again and the ripples are gone.

Nordie

TheGooner wrote:

I see what you mean but I think my thinking on it is that he knows how much I am worth so I might be as well pushing to GIVE ME what I am worth

By all means air your grievances and ask for a raise, I just feel so strongly on issues like this and think they are unfair employers, I couldn't trust them anymore and therefore wouldn't work for them.

Good luck anyway & I hope it works out for you.

Nordie

TheGooner wrote:

I see what you mean but I think my thinking on it is that he knows how much I am worth so I might be as well pushing to GIVE ME what I am worth

By all means air your grievances and ask for a raise, I just feel so strongly on issues like this and think they are unfair employers, I couldn't trust them anymore and therefore wouldn't work for them.

Good luck anyway & I hope it works out for you.

Huggles

Darragh29 wrote:

What you've said above is part of the problem. Your perception of yourself within this workplace I fear is not at all accurate. Your not Jackie Healy Rae going up to a Taoiseach who desperately needs support! The language you are using above about "drafting up requests", tells me that you are heading for a showdown while under an illusion that you are in a position of power.

Nah no showdown coming, I just no how much work I have done here and I am a bit miffed that I am getting piss taken out of me

Darragh29 wrote:

If I was your boss and you came up to me with a story about having received an e-mail from me with everyone's salary details on it and you started telling me that you should be getting paid X on the basis of someone else being paid Y, I'd be getting you to get the fu*k out of my sight and not to be telling me how to run my business. I'd tell you if you weren't happy, get the fu*k out the door.

Ok really glad your not my boss as to be honest if someone told me to get the fu*k out the door I wouldn't work for them!! Its not a 'story' by the way, it happened just as I said.

I know for a fact that me leaving would cause more than ripples. I am between the management and the otherside of production and currently on my own as my counterpart is laid up for at least 4 months with an injury.

The other side of production CANNOT do any work if I don't first hand it to them. So I think its more than ripples...

I do appreciate what your saying tho but we're probably from two waaaaaaay different industrys.

damnyanks

If someone junior is getting paid the same as you and they refuse to up your salary leave, its that simple.

If a company has no intention of bringing your salary inline with others then either a) They want rid of you or Haven't a clue as this sort of thing will cause people (i.e you) to leave.

It's another reason why you should never say what you're earning to people in the same company or state your bonus etc.

Darragh29

TheGooner wrote:

Nah no showdown coming, I just no how much work I have done here and I am a bit miffed that I am getting piss taken out of me



Ok really glad your not my boss as to be honest if someone told me to get the fu*k out the door I wouldn't work for them!! Its not a 'story' by the way, it happened just as I said.

I know for a fact that me leaving would cause more than ripples. I am between the management and the otherside of production and currently on my own as my counterpart is laid up for at least 4 months with an injury.

The other side of production CANNOT do any work if I don't first hand it to them. So I think its more than ripples...

I do appreciate what your saying tho but we're probably from two waaaaaaay different industrys.

OK, I know you feel you are working harder than others you work with and that you are getting the raw deal, but firstly you need to accept home truth number one:

NOBODY is indespensible and everyone is REPLACEABLE. It's very easy to look at what is going on around you and think that the place would go t*its up if you didn't come into work next week, but trust me, EVERYONE is replaceable with the absolute minimum of disruption when it comes down to it. This is not something I use as a philosophy or a way of doing things, it's something I've learned when I was in past employments. I've also seen other friends making the same mistake, thinking they are indispensible and then finding themselves being handed a P45 someday and spending the next 2 years coming to terms with it, such was the shock that they were actually replaceable.

Your boss could replace you in the morning if he or she had to, this is a fact.

As for my telling someone to get the fu*k out the door if someone challenges me with respect to business decisions and payroll decisions, you can't use a mistake that your boss has made to try to leverage better terms from the boss. If I was your boss and you came to me and said you got this e-mail by accident and you were now a bit wiser and wanted to discuss improved terms for yourself, I'd give you a P45, because I can't turn around and agree with you when you start saying, "Look, Johnny the Junior there is a useless waste of space and we're on the same money and Jack the Sales guy there is on twice what I'm on AND he has a bonus and he's a muppet".

If I had to agree with you when you said that your co-workers were incompetent, the only conclusion that could be drawn would be that I as their manager is even more incompetent for allowing such a situation to develop.

If on the other hand, I was your boss and you handed in your notice and I asked you why and you said that you had received this e-mail in error and you felt sick at what you saw, that those who were not pulling their weight were getting better paid than you, who is working hard and dilligently, and you wanted to leave over it, the chances are that you'd get offered more than anyone else to stay, because you'd be seen to be acting on principle rather than taking advantage of a mistake that I might have made.

If you really have the courage of your convictions with regard to you being indespensible in your current workplace, I put it to you that you would have no fear of handing in your notice to maximise your bargaining position, because you would be comfortable in the knowledge that your employer not just would not, but could not accept it and you would have forced their hand...

Darragh29

TheGooner wrote:

Nah no showdown coming, I just no how much work I have done here and I am a bit miffed that I am getting piss taken out of me



Ok really glad your not my boss as to be honest if someone told me to get the fu*k out the door I wouldn't work for them!! Its not a 'story' by the way, it happened just as I said.

I know for a fact that me leaving would cause more than ripples. I am between the management and the otherside of production and currently on my own as my counterpart is laid up for at least 4 months with an injury.

The other side of production CANNOT do any work if I don't first hand it to them. So I think its more than ripples...

I do appreciate what your saying tho but we're probably from two waaaaaaay different industrys.

I remember a dispute in Ryanair when a load of baggage handlers went on strike and they grinned as they thought that they were holding all the cards. They grinned until they saw Michael O' Leary walking through the baggage hall with a load of middle management behind him in high-vis jackets ready to load & unload the planes. They didn't see that coming, don't let the same thing happen you!

dudara

I wouldn't let it be known that you had received that email at all.

Prepare for the meeting with your boss by creating a list of your strengths, what you have achieved in recent months and the benefit that you bring the firm.

Perform some research and determine what is the going rate in the market for people in your position, with your skills and experience.

Armed with this information, make your case for a pay rise.

Jumpy

Darragh29 wrote:

OK, I know you feel you are working harder than others you work with and that you are getting the raw deal, but firstly you need to accept home truth number one:

NOBODY is indespensible and everyone is REPLACEABLE. It's very easy to look at what is going on around you and think that the place would go t*its up if you didn't come into work next week, but trust me, EVERYONE is replaceable with the absolute minimum of disruption when it comes down to it. This is not something I use as a philosophy or a way of doing things, it's something I've learned when I was in past employments. I've also seen other friends making the same mistake, thinking they are indispensible and then finding themselves being handed a P45 someday and spending the next 2 years coming to terms with it, such was the shock that they were actually replaceable.

Your boss could replace you in the morning if he or she had to, this is a fact.

As for my telling someone to get the fu*k out the door if someone challenges me with respect to business decisions and payroll decisions, you can't use a mistake that your boss has made to try to leverage better terms from the boss. If I was your boss and you came to me and said you got this e-mail by accident and you were now a bit wiser and wanted to discuss improved terms for yourself, I'd give you a P45, because I can't turn around and agree with you when you start saying, "Look, Johnny the Junior there is a useless waste of space and we're on the same money and Jack the Sales guy there is on twice what I'm on AND he has a bonus and he's a muppet".

If I had to agree with you when you said that your co-workers were incompetent, the only conclusion that could be drawn would be that I as their manager is even more incompetent for allowing such a situation to develop.

If on the other hand, I was your boss and you handed in your notice and I asked you why and you said that you had received this e-mail in error and you felt sick at what you saw, that those who were not pulling their weight were getting better paid than you, who is working hard and dilligently, and you wanted to leave over it, the chances are that you'd get offered more than anyone else to stay, because you'd be seen to be acting on principle rather than taking advantage of a mistake that I might have made.

If you really have the courage of your convictions with regard to you being indespensible in your current workplace, I put it to you that you would have no fear of handing in your notice to maximise your bargaining position, because you would be comfortable in the knowledge that your employer not just would not, but could not accept it and you would have forced their hand...

Trolls are not welcome here.
Your lack of knowledge of the business environment is extremely obvious.
The only sensible comment you have made is the bowl of water one, and that was a common office plaque in the 90's, it is far from original.
If you would hand someone a P45 for a discussion about salary while they were holding an exceptional piece of leverage (that you provided), then praytell, extend onto us your wise knowledge by providing us all with a step by step explanation of how you would do this without facing legal action.
We eagerly anticipate your response Director sir.

I fully agree that you should show all due respect to your fellow colleagues when discussing such a matter, but under no circumstances provide your resignation letter unless terms cannot be agreed.

chump

dudara wrote:

I wouldn't let it be known that you had received that email at all.

I agree completely.

A few things I would do,
Not raise the issue at hand for at least a week or two, let the email blow over
(you never saw it)
In good time, look around for another job, see what the prospects are - make a few inquirer's (sp?). Ultimately you have to find what your alternative is.
Knowing your alternative approach the boss and ask for a raise that will satisfy you.


Now I would like to comment and say how strange I find it that you had no idea where you stood in salary terms in the office place - maybe it's like that in some places of employment, but never any I've come across.

Rgds

pow wow

Jumpy wrote:

Trolls are not welcome here.
Your lack of knowledge of the business environment is extremely obvious.
The only sensible comment you have made is the bowl of water one, and that was a common office plaque in the 90's, it is far from original.
If you would hand someone a P45 for a discussion about salary while they were holding an exceptional piece of leverage (that you provided), then praytell, extend onto us your wise knowledge by providing us all with a step by step explanation of how you would do this without facing legal action.
We eagerly anticipate your response Director sir.

I fully agree that you should show all due respect to your fellow colleagues when discussing such a matter, but under no circumstances provide your resignation letter unless terms cannot be agreed.

I don't think his (her?) comments are totally out of the way. He is correct that everyone is replaceable, no matter how much one thinks or is told that the workplace would fall down without them. I have to say if I were a director I would be none too impressed with an employee using an administrative error meaning they had access to highly sensitive information they KNOW is not meant for their eyes as leverage over me. I doubt the OP would get a P45, but I doubt the response would be entirely positive.

To the OP, what happened is unfortunate and it sucks. I know. I've been there (I found out by being given the wrong payslip that a new starter who was incidentally later sacked for theft and was thoroughly incompetent by everyones standards while she was working with us was earning a few grand more than me) but what you do from now on is what is important. You came by the information due to a mistake, and to blatantly use it (i.e. go to your boss and say "I know for a fact that sack of potatoes in the corner earns more than I do!!") would be highly unprofessional and wouldn't win you any supporters.

If I were you I would say nothing for now. Try and bit your tongue. Do a little bit of research on the going rate for your job and in a month or so make an appointment with your boss to discuss your pay. Be armed with proof of all you've done for the company as others have said, along with examples if needed of how much other companies offer for your position. Make absolutely no mention of the fact you know how much everyone is earning.

Then, if you don't get the required result, leave.

Out of interest, are you doing any more than your position literally requires? I ask because if you were hired at one level and have consistently gone above and beyond that, the pay issue could be related to the job you were actually hired to do, not how much you've outperformed it.

Try and stay calm. Good luck!

Huggles

chump wrote:

I agree completely.

Now I would like to comment and say how strange I find it that you had no idea where you stood in salary terms in the office place - maybe it's like that in some places of employment, but never any I've come across.

Rgds

No I had a fair IDEA of the salary scales.....just bloody surprised that I was waaaaaaaaaay off :mad:

Huggles

ellscurr wrote:

I don't think his (her?) comments are totally out of the way. He is correct that everyone is replaceable, no matter how much one thinks or is told that the workplace would fall down without them. I have to say if I were a director I would be none too impressed with an employee using an administrative error meaning they had access to highly sensitive information they KNOW is not meant for their eyes as leverage over me. I doubt the OP would get a P45, but I doubt the response would be entirely positive.

Yes I agree and the subject of the email will not come up.

ellscurr wrote:

To the OP, what happened is unfortunate and it sucks. I know. I've been there (I found out by being given the wrong payslip that a new starter who was incidentally later sacked for theft and was thoroughly incompetent by everyones standards while she was working with us was earning a few grand more than me) but what you do from now on is what is important. You came by the information due to a mistake, and to blatantly use it (i.e. go to your boss and say "I know for a fact that sack of potatoes in the corner earns more than I do!!") would be highly unprofessional and wouldn't win you any supporters.

Agreed,

ellscurr wrote:

If I were you I would say nothing for now. Try and bit your tongue. Do a little bit of research on the going rate for your job and in a month or so make an appointment with your boss to discuss your pay. Be armed with proof of all you've done for the company as others have said, along with examples if needed of how much other companies offer for your position. Make absolutely no mention of the fact you know how much everyone is earning.

Then, if you don't get the required result, leave.

Yes that is what I have settled on. Going to gather up everything for the next month and then approach him about a raise.

ellscurr wrote:

Out of interest, are you doing any more than your position literally requires? I ask because if you were hired at one level and have consistently gone above and beyond that, the pay issue could be related to the job you were actually hired to do, not how much you've outperformed it.

Try and stay calm. Good luck!

Generally I do outperform. I have always been that way but I come from a background where you work bloody hard to get ahead and up until yesterday morning I was quite happy to break my neck hoping my next increase would reflect that. Now I see that the guy in same job, less experience and DOES NOT go above and beyond, is on more money. I really don't think I am being irrational.

marktsang

start applying for another job now, get your portfolio together and start looking,
when you find something hand in your notice and tell your boss you were made a better offer, if you are as good as you say he will be jumping out of his seat to make a counter offer

Darragh29

Jumpy wrote:

Trolls are not welcome here.
Your lack of knowledge of the business environment is extremely obvious.
The only sensible comment you have made is the bowl of water one, and that was a common office plaque in the 90's, it is far from original.
If you would hand someone a P45 for a discussion about salary while they were holding an exceptional piece of leverage (that you provided), then praytell, extend onto us your wise knowledge by providing us all with a step by step explanation of how you would do this without facing legal action.
We eagerly anticipate your response Director sir.

I fully agree that you should show all due respect to your fellow colleagues when discussing such a matter, but under no circumstances provide your resignation letter unless terms cannot be agreed.

No question of trolling mate, if your not happy in your employment, you leave, it doesn't get simpler than that. An employer can dismiss an employee for any reason or indeed for no reason at all. I would not tolerate any employee using a mistake I might have made to bully me into a pay increase. I'd have more respect for someone who had the courage of their convictions and was prepared to leave a job over a form of treatment than someone who thought they had an angle on me and tried to call my hand. I wouldn't be in this situation, because I wouldn't have a situation in my business where lazy people get paid more than hard working people. I spent too many years in workplaces when I wasn't happy with my terms, wasn't happy with so many things, extremely poor management, underhand managerial practices, I decided I could do it better and started up my own business, and I've never looked back. If I had have done things differently, I'd still be back there in a bad situation, bad salary, depressed in my job, giving out about my circumstances. If your not happy in your job for ANY reason, it's up to you to extradite yourself from your situation.

For clarity, I would not dismiss someone for discussing a salary issue on its own merits, but if I thought someone was using information that they should not have, regardless of how they came to have that information, to bully me into a corner, I'd fire them, especially if they had a notion that they were indespensible.

Jumpy

Darragh29 wrote:

No question of trolling mate, if your not happy in your employment, you leave, it doesn't get simpler than that. An employer can dismiss an employee for any reason or indeed for no reason at all. I would not tolerate any employee using a mistake I might have made to bully me into a pay increase. I'd have more respect for someone who had the courage of their convictions and was prepared to leave a job over a form of treatment than someone who thought they had an angle on me and tried to call my hand. I wouldn't be in this situation, because I wouldn't have a situation in my business where lazy people get paid more than hard working people. I spent too many years in workplaces when I wasn't happy with my terms, wasn't happy with so many things, extremely poor management, underhand managerial practices, I decided I could do it better and started up my own business, and I've never looked back. If I had have done things differently, I'd still be back there in a bad situation, bad salary, depressed in my job, giving out about my circumstances. If your not happy in your job for ANY reason, it's up to you to extradite yourself from your situation.

For clarity, I would not dismiss someone for discussing a salary issue on its own merits, but if I thought someone was using information that they should not have, regardless of how they came to have that information, to bully me into a corner, I'd fire them, especially if they had a notion that they were indespensible.

You cannot fire someone for no reason at all. This is not the eighties anymore. You can make them redundant, then you cannot re-fill their position.
Do you know how hard it is to fire someone these days?
You require a minimum of at least two notices unless it is gross misconduct. Otherwise you leave yourself open for unfair dismissal, and unless you are at the top of the chain it is unlikely that your job would survive a winning case.
If it came to light that the case was started by an almighty ****up such as exposing an entire departments salary, then it would be out the door with you.

Darragh29

Jumpy wrote:

You cannot fire someone for no reason at all. This is not the eighties anymore. You can make them redundant, then you cannot re-fill their position.
Do you know how hard it is to fire someone these days?
You require a minimum of at least two notices unless it is gross misconduct. Otherwise you leave yourself open for unfair dismissal, and unless you are at the top of the chain it is unlikely that your job would survive a winning case.
If it came to light that the case was started by an almighty ****up such as exposing an entire departments salary, then it would be out the door with you.

It would not be unfair to fire someone who tried to basically tried to blackmail you.

Chinafoot

Darragh29 wrote:

An employer can dismiss an employee for any reason or indeed for no reason at all.

Eh.....what?

As for your blackmail comment....if the employer, however unwittingly, allowed the employee access to information that showed how her male counterpart with less experience was on more money than her, it's safe to say the employee has a very valid case for a raise. If her employer tried to fire her for bringing this to her attention she could bring an unfair dismissals case against hime, an dyou know what...I reckon she'd win. She may even have grounds for gender discrimination.

LundiMardi

Darragh29 wrote:

It would not be unfair to fire someone who tried to basically tried to blackmail you.

I think you misunderstand the meaning of blackmail. Nothing that has been mentioned so far comes close to being 'blackmail'.

Newaglish

Darragh29 wrote:

It would not be unfair to fire someone who tried to basically tried to blackmail you.

I don't think she was exactly planning on blackmail...?

Also:

As for my telling someone to get the fu*k out the door if someone challenges me with respect to business decisions and payroll decisions, you can't use a mistake that your boss has made to try to leverage better terms from the boss. If I was your boss and you came to me and said you got this e-mail by accident and you were now a bit wiser and wanted to discuss improved terms for yourself, I'd give you a P45, because I can't turn around and agree with you when you start saying, "Look, Johnny the Junior there is a useless waste of space and we're on the same money and Jack the Sales guy there is on twice what I'm on AND he has a bonus and he's a muppet".

If on the other hand, I was your boss and you handed in your notice and I asked you why and you said that you had received this e-mail in error and you felt sick at what you saw, that those who were not pulling their weight were getting better paid than you, who is working hard and dilligently, and you wanted to leave over it, the chances are that you'd get offered more than anyone else to stay, because you'd be seen to be acting on principle rather than taking advantage of a mistake that I might have made.

I atcually don't get the difference between your two approaches here? You're basically saying the same thing.

Incidentally, do you work in a management capacity?

Jumpy

He does, but it is self emplyment or own business. Not a corporate.
Things have changed a lot on the corporate side.

Its not blackmail by the way, it is professional leverage, very big difference.

cyrusdvirus

got bored with reading, decided to post.

first and foremost, in my opinion you HAVE to let the boss know about the mail. If your company is using any of the standard email programs, all he needs to do is have a quick look-see in the sent items. If you are the person who you describe yourself as being, then you going into him demanding more money is gonna make your boss wonder where this came from. He sees a mail he inadvertandly sent to you and he's going to go gaga, cos THAT could be seen as being a little bit underhand, despite it being his fault.

Secondly, you cannot go around badmouthing your co-workers. that'll just get up the bosses wick and same result.

Thirdly, be willing to accept what he has to say on the matter. I'm with my employers 13 years, and I'm here on a sunday working away, and I regard myself as a good, loyal, productive worker. However i know that there are people in this company, in slightly different fields, who are new in the door, who are on more than me, despite being slightly junior to me. I have to accept this because of the economics of the thing.
People coming into a job will always get more than the people who are there already. When I've had proof about this I've gone to the higher ups and been given my payrises.
You have the proof, just be careful about comparing an accountant to a creative chappie. Bosses tend to look at € signs, and accountants are better at talking in that language than other types

the_syco

Chinafoot wrote:

Eh.....what?

From working in a cinema, pub/nightclub, and a restaurant, I've seen people that can rack up warnings very quickly, as management start to notice certain things, instead of letting them slide as per usual, if that person has pissed off someone up top. It's the legal way of firing someone for being a prat.

Chardee MacDennis

darragh29 is so full of crap it is unbelievable - i hope for his sake he isnt in a management capacity and if he is, i feel sorry for anyone wokring under him.

You must tell your boss you received this email, he will know when the intended reciepient does not receive it and notifies your boss, if not some other way.

simple as tell him you have seen this email, tell him you feel your contributions to the company justify a salary in line with the your peers and while you enjoy working in the company you will not hesitate to see if your expectation can be meet farther afield.

The worst that can happen is he says no, you start looking for a new job with at least some intelligence of what your market value is. The best is your requests are meet.

Btw even if you dont request this raise, you should still make your boss aware you have recieved this informaton and deleted it. It would be mush worse if you didn't say anything and he found out later. Plus you never know he may have the 'return reciept' option on it which means he'll know tomorrow morning when he opens his mail.

oh and you cannot be fired for receiving this email, and if you were suddenly fired after 4.5 years for 'another reason' i think you would have a very strong wrongful dismissal case on your hands.

good luck

Afuera

Call_me_al wrote:

You must tell your boss you received this email, he will know when the intended reciepient does not receive it and notifies your boss, if not some other way.

I agree with this fully. Depending on the rapport you have with him you could say it in a jokingly way "Ooops, I think you sent this to the wrong person. I've deleted it from my account but maybe we need to discuss where I fit into this scale?" Then leave it up to him to resolve the issue.

If there is no word from him on this subject for a week or two then you need to approach him with a good case for why you should be paid more. Refer to industry figures from recruitment websites or other market research, describe the different roles that you are covering but do not mention anything about the report he mistakingly sent you. As darragh29's post highlighted, some managers can be extreemly insecure and any attention brought to their own failings is seen as a challenge to their authority. These make terrible managers as they are unable to learn from their own mistakes (which they can go to great lengths to ignore) but they can usually be easily played when their ego is flattered (so it's important that they at least FEEL like their in the driving seat).

Darragh29

Call_me_al wrote:

darragh29 is so full of crap it is unbelievable - i hope for his sake he isnt in a management capacity and if he is, i feel sorry for anyone wokring under him.

There's absolutely no need for you to feel sorry for anyone who works in my business. Nobody who works with me would ever have grounds to come on here and complain about their employment circumstances, terms or conditions. Yes I am working in a management capacity. I chose to start up my own business after spending years working under what could only be called psychopathic "management" figures in the "corporate" world as another poster has described it here. When it comes to sly workplace practices, devious, sly and underhand managers who set you up for failure, the promotion of the lazy over the hard working, jobs for the boys, the workplace clique looking after each other when promtions came about, I can definitely say that I've seen it all.

You need to bear in mind that this situation that has arisen in respect of the OP's original complaint, this would not happen in my workplace, and if it ever did, I'd go off and do another management course because I'd be of the view that I as a manager was an absolute fu*king failure.

If the OP thinks he has all the answers, he should go throw his notice on the table and go off and work for himself and get paid more that way, because experience has taught me (the hard way) that this is the only way to rid yourself of arseholes who take advantage of you and screw you hard in the workplace. Ireland is riddled with what can only be called inept, dysfunctional and in a nutshell, fu*king useless people in management, and nowhere is it more obvious than in the "corporate" workplace. Some poster above seems to be making a point of saying that I only worked for myself and wasn't a "corporate" manager. Thank fu*k I'm not, because I've seen the kind of pond scum that usually ends up being a manager in the "corporate" world.

Jumpy

Call_me_al wrote:

darragh29 is so full of crap it is unbelievable - i hope for his sake he isnt in a management capacity and if he is, i feel sorry for anyone wokring under him.

Personal attacks are bad mmmkay.

Chardee MacDennis

Darragh29 wrote:

Thank fu*k I'm not, because I've seen the kind of pond scum that usually ends up being a manager in the "corporate" world.

shows how much you know that you can sum up hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people worldwide, with one sentance.

obviously you are magnificent. take a bow...

also if you ever sent an email to the wrong person you would be a complete failure? jesus I hope your business never goes under or you may end up topping yourself if you look at everything that way.

Darragh29

Call_me_al wrote:

shows how much you know that you can sum up hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people worldwide, with one sentance.

obviously you are magnificent. take a bow...

also if you ever sent an email to the wrong person you would be a complete failure? jesus I hope your business never goes under or you may end up topping yourself if you look at everything that way.

I'm talking from my own experience. My experience of management in Ireland is that the standard of people management in Ireland is nothing short of an absolute fu*king disgrace. I've never had a manager who had a professional qualification in management, despite me having worked for many years in a large US multinational company. I never said that I was magnificent, but I went to the bother of doing a professional management qualification that helped me build a working environment that is based on mutual trust and respect between management and employees. I thank Christ that I don't have to resort to the pathethic games that I've seen management resort to in the past, games that the OP has highlighted on here, because I took time out to learn a better and more positive way of doing things.

The issue here is not an e-mail sent by mistake. The problem here is that in the OP's workplace, management are inept, the place has an obvious morale problem, if this isn't management failure, I don't know what is.

Chardee MacDennis

Jumpy wrote:

Personal attacks are bad mmmkay.

while they maybe - i feel strongly about giving people advise this poor when it comes to a persons career.

BostonB

If it were me, I say I got the email, opened it by accident, and as a result are very unhappy with your own salary. Should ask him to bring your salary up to decent level, or should you set a figure? Either way you have to be prepared to walk if he refuses to. He obviously has little respect for you.