Migration & Ghettoisation-Has it gone wrong already?

gurramok

New stats released today by the CSO show certain urban districts with majority non-Irish nationality and a lot of others with a thumping majority of Irish nationality not far away.

From http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0614/migrants.html?rss and detailed stats at http://beyond2020.cso.ie/Census/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=1985,
it shows that certain areas of the Dublin north inner city and parts of the Greater Blanchardstown area are becoming clustered with fast growing ethnic minorities.

For example, North City/Mountjoy/North City quays districts have a hugely significant chunk of people of non-Irish nationality.

The anti-racism bodies like 'National Consultation Committee on Racism and Interculturalism' are certainly displeased at the stats.

As this clustering has happened in many countries previously with some disastrous results for integration, is it a future trend here to get worse?

A Dub in Glasgo

Immigrants tend to stick to their own when they emigrate to another country. Look at the massive clusters of Irish, Indian & Pakistani people in various parts of Glasgow.

How much of the non-Irish in a particular area is down to the council policies?

Zebra3

gurramok wrote:

New stats released today by the CSO show certain urban districts with majority non-Irish nationality and a lot of others with a thumping majority of Irish nationality not far away.

From http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0614/migrants.html?rss and detailed stats at http://beyond2020.cso.ie/Census/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=1985,
it shows that certain areas of the Dublin north inner city and parts of the Greater Blanchardstown area are becoming clustered with fast growing ethnic minorities.

For example, North City/Mountjoy/North City quays districts have a hugely significant chunk of people of non-Irish nationality.

The anti-racism bodies like 'National Consultation Committee on Racism and Interculturalism' are certainly displeased at the stats.

As this clustering has happened in many countries previously with some disastrous results for integration, is it a future trend here to get worse?

Why is somewhere a ghetto because foreigners live there?

I always thought a ghetto was a dump of an area and there's plenty of them around full of Irish people.

Scally07

When Irish People live there its a dump no one cares about.
Move in some Nigerians and its a dis advantaged Ghetto that needs urgent attention.

"National Consultation Comittee on Racism and Interculturalism"

Sounds a bit like Comittee for Public Enlightenment to me.

Karl Hungus

The same has happened in any European city where there is large scale immigration. Why would anyone have thought Ireland would be different?

Unpossible

Would a lot of these houses not simply be rented out ? I mean from what I see on boards a lot of landlords have a few houses and are just trying to rent them to anyone. How many houses in these areas are council owned? How many are privately owned and rented out?

I can imagine a situation where an estate was privately built and most of the houses bought there would be bought by people seeing it as an investment and because of the nature of the market the most demand for renting happens to come from non-Irish. Is this anywhere close to whats happening?

Zebra3

Imagine if private property owners put a limit on the amount of non-nationals they wanted living in their houses.... :rolleyes:

stovelid

Zebra3 wrote:

I always thought a ghetto was a dump of an area and there's plenty of them around full of Irish people.

I think technically its a place that is (negatively) separated or distinct from the rest of the city, whether by dint of race, poverty or whatever, ie Ghettoized.

I guess a ghetto will always end up being a dump for that exact reason.

Most areas that see a big migrant population increase are probably cheaper to rent and are largely non-middle class. Can you really see the resident committees of posh areas agreeing to a mass influx of migrants and refugees.?

magick

When Irish People live there its a dump no one cares about.
Move in some Nigerians and its a dis advantaged Ghetto that needs urgent attention.

no thats Tallaght,by default

MontgomeryClift

We need inner city ghettoes. It puts the finishing touches on a modern metropolis. I can't wait for the race riots. They will make for great television.

Moriarty

I think there might be reasons other than a simple "I'll stick with who I know" mindset going on here.

Look at the areas that have a large percentage of foreign nationals and you'll notice that almost all of them have had large high density apartment complexes built there in the past ten years. I think its fair to say that more of these apartments would be in the letting market as compared to "established" properties elsewhere around the country due to the property investment boom. So we have an imbalance in the provision of rentable property to begin with, clustered in high density areas in and around the city centre where planning permission has been granted for these developments.

Add to this a couple of other factors. Public transport is centered on the city centre. From my experience immigrant workers may be far more mobile in their choice of jobs than Irish people. They may have two or three jobs on the go at once, and seem to be happier to leave one job for another. That means that they'll need mobility and the ability to get to many parts of the city from wherever they choose to live.

I also think its fair to say that, as a proportion, immigrants are using public transport a lot more than Irish people when you consider that a lot of them are young to begin with and they generally come here to work hard and save money to go home with, so a car may be out of their financial reach. Rent is generally a tad cheaper in the north of the city too.

Once you take these factors into consideration, the city centre begins to look very appealing to someone moving to this country for the first time.

Judt

So err, what should we do exactly? State that every estate needs to be sold 50% to Irish nationals and 50% to other nationals?

It seems the committee for pissing and moaning is getting irate over something you couldn't possibly have control over.

is_that_so

IMO the numbers show us a few things

How much Ireland has changed in the last 10-12 years.
Identification of the concentrations of non-national groups and by extension the types of services they may need.
Immigration policy or the lack thereof.
An absence of any integration policy or planning.

I don't think it is necessarily alarming and I don't expect to see it coming to a TV near you any time soon. As posted it is perfectly natural for immigrants to gravitate towards their own language/ethnic groups.

At the very least it is a reminder that this government needs to address and develop integration policies and not just for inner-city Dublin.

Victor

Is it a ghetto if several hundred thousand people use the area every day? Is it a ghetto if many of the foreigners counted are tourists staying in Jury's, The Gresham, Royal Dublin or any number of hostels on Gardiner Street?

http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&q=hotel+%22dublin+1%22&btnG=Google+Search&meta=cr%3DcountryIE

gurramok wrote:

North City/Mountjoy/North City

Why do you mention North City ED twice?

Of note, of the population of:
054 Barr Rúscaí
068 Nealstown
055 Roscomroe
058 Tulla
110 Cloontra
078 Bishopstown (part)
076 Knocknascrow
077 Scregg
072 Keeldra

Total population 1,326 only 8 foreigners are counted, but several of them are probably people ticking the wrong box.

Mayor25

Victor wrote:

Is it a ghetto if many of the foreigners counted are tourists staying in Jury's, The Gresham, Royal Dublin or any number of hostels on Gardiner Street?

I find it very hard to believe that the CSO would have counted tourists or people staying in hotels as being part of the non-national population. If you look at the heading of that CSO report linked to above, it says 'Usually resident population by nationality'.

Do you have any evidence to suggest that tourists were counted though?

Total population 1,326 only 8 foreigners are counted

And your point is? That there are fewer non-nationals in some parts of the country than others?

but several of them are probably people ticking the wrong box.

And likewise, some of the people counted as Irish were probably foreigners who ticked the wrong box.

Victor

Mayor25 wrote:

I find it very hard to believe that the CSO would have counted tourists or people staying in hotels as being part of the non-national population. If you look at the heading of that CSO report linked to above, it says 'Usually resident population by nationality'. Do you have any evidence to suggest that tourists were counted though?

This isn't a CSO report, these are fisgures manipulated by a user, that while likely to be reasonably accurate, have not been confirmed as such.

Fratton Fred

I've watched this happen, asian family move in, then their friends move there as well. One of the neighbours puts their house on the market, because they don't want to live near the Asians, no one wants to but it, except Asians and so it goes on until you have an area dominated by Muslims/Indians etc.

Before I moved over, my local primary school had such poor results it was classed as an underachieving school. The reason for this was that 80% of the children who started there did not have English as a first language. Because of the high number of Pakistani kids that went there, the English people in the local, sent their kids to other schools because they did not want their kids learning Erdu so you ended up with a defacto Muslim school.

The area was not a ghetto, or a slum, it just had, in some parts, a near total Pakistani/Bangledeshi community. Because of this, it became an obvious choice for people moving over from Pakistan/Bangledesh and so on.

I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing, it's just the way it happens. Look at Kilburn in the 60s and 70s.

gurramok

Victor wrote:

This isn't a CSO report, these are fisgures manipulated by a user, that while likely to be reasonably accurate, have not been confirmed as such.

I don't get this sentence unles you are saying the CSO and RTE are just 'users'

They are a breakdown of CSO stats from the census if you bothered to have a look at the link posted.

PS- I had said 'North City/Mountjoy/North City quays districts' whereby North City is a ward in the report and 'North City quays' would consist of other wards around the north quays, understand?

Anyway, it is not a good thing to have high concentrations in one area of foreign nationals, they should be spread out amongst the general population to promote goodwill between native and non-native alike for integration.

Having exclusively separate communities is a bad thing, just look from Fratton Fred's experience in UK.

Even the PC brigade agree on this point.

Judt

Anyway, it is not a good thing to have high concentrations in one area of foreign nationals, they should be spread out amongst the general population to promote goodwill between native and non-native alike for integration.

You forgot to enlighten us as to how you would make this work.

lostexpectation

the poorest people living in the most run down areas shocker!!!!