Calling 3-bets with pocket pairs?

phantom_lord

100bbs effective stacks. oop. hu pot.

If I make it 4 with 22-99, should I call a re-raise to 12/14/16?

From someone who doesn't 3bet lightly. say qq-aa range.
someone with an aq+ qq+ type of range.
what-about some who 3bets regularly, with a lot of thrash in his range.

I know the normal requirements are 15x, but in a 3-bet, it should be easier to stack someone plus they have a smaller range of hands that they're likely to get stacked with, so it should be less?

I'm assuming it would be incorrect to fold in a multi-way pot?

Moneymaker

I think set mining is fine there. Shut down if you don't spike the set of course.

Chucky the tree

What if your pocket pair is higher then the boards? 9's on a 7 high flop for example. Obviously against qq-AA range you c/f but againt someone who does it with AQ, AK what should you do?

c/c, lead flop, take a stab at c/r?

semibluff

very interested to see the answers of robin and hector et al

with 100 bb plus i find myself check folding any flop that i dont hit, depending on villain, but folding to a bet 80-90% of the time. i think surely this is a leak in my play???

against AA/QQ i think it could be profitable,(obv presuming you hit the set) because you wont get merely one bet out of them as you would do IMO if they held AK/AQ. so is this the deciding factor - the villains range?

gerry87

7.5/1 to flop a set. If you're facing a raise of 13BB's and the person has 100BB's you have to be positive you'll get their entire stack every time you hit, alot of the time you won't, eg QQ/KK 3 betting and a K or an A flops.

opr

I kinda stick to the 5/10 rule on this P_L and i don't think your doing much wrong if you do.

I know a huge amount of other factors determine calling or folding these and they do come into my decision but as a rule of thumb i don't think its a bad guideline.

It makes sense that you should be more inclinded to call a higher % of your stack against someone that does not 3 bet lightly as you will stack them more often. After all it is the OP vs the set that makes them so profitable.

If someone is 3 betting with trash your implied odds surely go way down as your not gonna stack them nearly as often and should be calling a lower % of your stack. The flip side of this coin is that often you might be ahead on the flop but getting to a showdown is going to be very difficult.

Opr

Ste05

I actually prefer to call when they have a really tight range, and if there's 8 or 9:1 implied odds, it's much more likely to get paid off then if they have a wider range.

So if he raises to 14 and has about 86 left it's perfect, even 16 is about OK

ianmc38

Mostly fold.

Raise size, position and history are all crucial factors.

semibluff

can u explain why ian ?

the general conscensus "so far" is the opposite.

agreed ste that the tighter range will pay you off most of the time as said in my previous post

phantom_lord

everytime I call with a pair pf it feels like a leak.

opr

I don't think most people have said its a call.

As Ian said its a fold most of the time. The reraise is more than 10% of my stack which means that we don't have the implied odds to call and also being OOP makes its worse.

5/10 rule : Its if less than 5% its an auto call between 5% and 10% its a judgement thing based mostly on the other factors and over 10% its generally a fold. This is just a guideline and is not always correct as with all these type of things

Opr

opr

phantom_lord wrote:

everytime I call with a pair pf it feels like a leak.

Even when you have just stacked AA ?

Opr

con_leche

I understand the concept of implied odds, but in general I don't like to call a bet if I am behind.

You only hit the set about 1 time in 8 [afaik]. You need to felt a standard opponent practically every time you hit for this play to become profitable, assuming 100 BB stacks. I.e. you call 13% of you stack to felt 1 time in 8.

It may be profitable in dollar terms against weaker opponents in 3-bet pots, and in the multi-way 3-bet pots, but generally the 3-bet pot is against stronger players. I fold a small pp here every time.

As IanM stressed, the importance of position cannot be negated.

Has anyone got the maths on whether it is more favourable to call the re-raise with say J10s as oppossed to 66? I presume 66 plays better?

con_leche

I understand the concept of implied odds, but in general I don't like to call a bet if I am behind.

You only hit the set about 1 time in 8 [afaik]. You need to felt a standard opponent practically every time you hit for this play to become profitable, assuming 100 BB stacks. I.e. you call 13% of you stack to felt 1 time in 8.

It may be profitable in dollar terms against weaker opponents in 3-bet pots, and in the multi-way 3-bet pots, but generally the 3-bet pot is against stronger players. I fold a small pp here every time.

As IanM stressed, the importance of position cannot be negated.

Has anyone got the maths on whether it is more favourable to call the re-raise with say J10s as oppossed to 66? I presume 66 plays better?

Tar.Aldarion

If I have 7.5/1 I call.
Mostly throw away pocket pairs that are small, or else raise and fold to reraise.

BobSloane

con_leche wrote:

As IanM stressed, the importance of position cannot be negated.

Definetly. All the stack sizes/pot odds or 7.5-1 stuff makes the assumption that you're going to showdown against a bigger pair. For example AK will generally re-raise. You have 77.
Flop comes 6 9 10. He continuation bets. You call. Turn is a 3. He checks. You bet- you win. Or you check behind. River is blank- check check, you win. No 7 or straight required. OOP this gets very messy.

Mr.Plough

maybe its just me but is it wrong to ignore the 5/10 rule in cash game play? i usually only apply this to tournaments.

AmarilloFats

In the the case when you are looking to flop a set or fold to a flop bet position doesn't matters that much at all
Sets are eay to play 100bb deep

But if you are getting 3 bet alot then you will often be correct to call cont bets with 66 -99 on a multitude of flops - now position matters.

BobSloane

AmarilloFats wrote:

I don't think position matters that much at all in this situation...
Sets are eay to play 100bb deep
when 100bb deep at .50/1 If you make it $4 and villain makes it $16..I think you should fold.

What if he makes it 14? What if you raise to 3 and he makes it 11?

AmarilloFats

BobSloane wrote:

What if he makes it 14? What if you raise to 3 and he makes it 11?

@100bb
1. villain has tight rage prob AK AA KK QQ - If you have implied odds for set call - Considerations:will he stack often enough
2. if villain has a wider range and and you can call alot of flop bets without flopping a set -Considerations: relative position, does he fire more than 1 barrell often etc.

peeko

opr wrote:

5/10 rule : Its if less than 5% its an auto call between 5% and 10% its a judgement thing based mostly on the other factors and over 10% its generally a fold. This is just a guideline and is not always correct as with all these type of things

Opr

Sorry Opr, can you explain this with a little bit more detail?

If the call you have to make is less than 5% of his remaining stack? Is that what you are saying?

Mr.Plough

your own stack

phantom_lord

Mr.Plough wrote:

maybe its just me but is it wrong to ignore the 5/10 rule in cash game play? i usually only apply this to tournaments.

it's actually 15x. and yeah it's a big mistake to ignore it.

opr

peeko wrote:

Sorry Opr, can you explain this with a little bit more detail?

If the call you have to make is less than 5% of his remaining stack? Is that what you are saying?

It means when you consider calling a raise with a PP if its 5% or less of your stack its an auto call like if your playing 100 and he makes it 4 to go thats 4% of your stack so allowing that he has the same or more it an auto call as your implied odds are really good here.

Following on from this betwen 5% and 10% is a judgement thing and you should start looking at other things such as position , does he 3 bet lightly etc etc.

As said its not a harden rule or anything but it is a good guideline.

Opr

peeko

yeah it is a good guideline, can see how it would come into tourney play more, as I think most cash players here would always play with 100BB at most times. Thanks for clearing it up.