Pokertracker Question for those with large data sets

Hectorjelly

Over 70k hands at all levels Ive made:

.73 bb per hand with AQo

.48 bb per hand with AKq


1.9 bb perhand with AQs

1.2 bb per hand with AKs


What are other peoples stats for these hands? Why am I doing better with AQ than AK!


edit to add, they are all in PTBB, so the real bb figure is double

DeVore

Could it be that you are more aggresive with AK then AQ and hence lose a larger sum to dominating hands? I'm sure you are more careful when playing AQ as we are all aware that it can be a bogey hand.

I just ran AK straight into a short stack's Aces (just now) where I might have been less confident with AQ and gotten away from it. (not sure I would have been right to get away from it but there you go, I'm playing like a moron at the moment anyway).

Just a hypothesis, dont have any personal data to back it up with.

DeV.

opr

I was gonna start a thread in relation to how i am playing AK. As i feel i am being way to hyper aggressive with it.

I remember seeing something you posted a while back HJ in relation to not 3 betting AK as apart from Meta game and giving a larger range of hands that you 3-bet its of little value.

Some thoughts

3bet

In general i fold out all A's that i dominate - This is really bad.

If some 4bets me i am usually crushed.

If someone calls and i miss 1010,JJ and QQ can usally get to show down as i am unwilling to spew more chips after CB.

When an A or K does fall on the flop this is usually all the chips i get as they are huge scare cards for the range of hands that call a 3 bet

They still usually have implied odds to call for a set and i get stacked.

I HATE THIS HAND.

Does anyone know of some good 2+2 threads or past ones on boards that with some good discussion on the hand.

Opr

Vamos

My new db has ~65k hands.

AKs 1.67
AKo 1.49

AQs 1.03
AQo 0.61

One or two 400BB pots win/lose over this sample would have a big effect on figures I'd say so I wouldn't be too worried about it, though what Devore said also makes sense.

The only other thing of note is since the new db I've been pretty happy to get it AIPF for 100BB against unknowns/idiots with AK a lot more than I used to.

opr

Vamos wrote:

The only other thing of note is since the new db I've been pretty happy to get it AIPF for 100BB against unknowns/idiots with AK a lot more than I used to.

Yeah i remember seeing Robin post something i think he saw on 2+2 that the general consensus was that getting in ALL in for a 100bb pot with AK is never going to be wrong in the long run.

I just don't see this. Surely when we are getting it all in with AK for these kind of pots preflop we race most of the time and the other we are against KK or AA which makes it -EV
I know alot of the time we have fold equity but i don't see that this makes up for the number of time we loose HUGE pots by running AK in AA or KK.

My main point is that if your getting it in with AK for 100bb pots does that mean that you are 3 betting AK almost always ?

Trying to find out if i should be just flat calling with AK alot more.

Opr

phantom_lord

i've been playing ak alot more aggressively that before, 3/4/5betting as standard against any reasonably aggressive opponent with generally good results. and as an added benifit it widens your range so you get more action on aa/kk.

I just don't see this. Surely when we are getting it all in with AK for these kind of pots preflop we race most of the time and the other we are against KK or AA which makes it -EV
I know alot of the time we have fold equity but i don't see that this makes up for the number of time we loose HUGE pots by running AK in AA or KK.

if you're playing it aggressively by the time he shoves over your 4bet you're getting such a good price against the range of qq+ ak+ you have to call.

Vamos

opr wrote:

Trying to find out if i should be just flat calling with AK alot more.

Opr

I'd guess I reraise about 85% of the time with AK, the other 15% is if the raiser is <10% pfr.
Against a constant 3-bettor, 30+/20+ players, shortstacks and bad players I like getting it all in. Giving them a generous enough range below you'll see your favourite.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 54.118% 42.45% 11.66% 26897424 7388947.50 { AsKs }
Hand 1: 45.882% 34.22% 11.66% 21679929 7388947.50 { AcAd, AcAh, KcKh, KdKh, QQ-JJ, AQs+, AQo+ }

Edit: You also sometimes fold out JJ/QQ

pok3rplaya

If you mean 70k hands total then i your sample size is pretty meaningless imo.

opr

phantom_lord wrote:

as an added benifit it widens your range so you get more action on aa/kk.

This a huge part of why i do 3bet with AK.

phantom_lord wrote:

if you're playing it aggressively by the time he shoves over your 4bet you're getting such a good price against the range of qq+ ak+ you have to call.

I just think that when he shoves over his range is much more weighted towards AA or KK so i am not sure that the price is that good. Obviously we can never fold given the price.

Vamos wrote:

I'd guess I reraise about 85% of the time with AK, the other 15% is if the raiser is <10% pfr.
Against a constant 3-bettor, 30+/20+ players, shortstacks and bad players I like getting it all in. Giving them a generous enough range below you'll see your favourite.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 54.118% 42.45% 11.66% 26897424 7388947.50 { AsKs }
Hand 1: 45.882% 34.22% 11.66% 21679929 7388947.50 { AcAd, AcAh, KcKh, KdKh, QQ-JJ, AQs+, AQo+ }

Edit: You also sometimes fold out JJ/QQ

So we end up getting involved in huge pots preflop where we are in essence flipping coins for large amounts. Yes you also have the added value that they may fold JJ or QQ but i think to include AQ with the same weighting as the other hands in villians range is wrong and i think overall we still end up flipping coins

Added to this all the value we lose from all the worse hands you fold out preflop. All the dominated A's and k's fold so we make no more money from these.
Surely the value lost from these hands folding is substantial.

Opr

Vamos

opr wrote:

but i think to include AQ with the same weighting as the hands in villians range is wrong

Against the players I mentioned, I think AQ is definitely part of their range.

opr

Vamos wrote:

Against the players I mentioned, I think AQ is definitely part of their range.

Oh i agree , I am not saying that it is not "part" of their range i am just saying that is does not have the same weighting in that range as the others.

Opr

Vamos

opr wrote:

Oh i agree , I am not saying that it is not "part" of their range i am just saying that is does not have the same weighting in that range as the others.

Opr

Fair enough, you may be right, I took out half the possible AQ combos in pokerstove and it's definitely more of a closer flip, but then, I do like those coin flips

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 51.708% 39.56% 12.15% 23706191 7282754.00 { AsKs }
Hand 1: 48.292% 36.14% 12.15% 21658941 7282754.00 { AcAd, AcAh, KcKd, KcKh, KdKh, QQ-JJ, AcKc, AdKd, AhKh, AQs, AcKd, AcKh, AdKc, AdKh, AhKc, AhKd, AcQd, AcQh, AcQs, AdQh, AdQs, AhQs }

ianmc38

Over roughly the same number of hands:

AQo - 1.21
AQs - 2.88
AKo - 1.26
AKs - 2.57

ocallagh

pt BB

AQo - 1.78
AQs - 0.63
AKo - 166
AKs - 1.01

robinlacey

i think that thing about getting it all in preflop with AK for 100bbs being fine was referring to 5/10 and up,and since it was a twoplustwo player the ranges he was basing it on were probably for full tilt or stars games,on more passive networks it might not be the case.

cardshark202

70k hands is not very much, especially across different levels.