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Tournament Players Question!

  • 12-06-2007 6:34pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,039 ✭✭✭


    Well Lads,

    I am primarily a cash game player, that is because I am terrible in tournaments ( terrible in cash too but thats not relevant right now).

    Anyway I have a question aimed at all the top tournament players here, aka LuckyLloyd, recent APAT Winner Jacques etc etc and all the consistent tournament ITM finishers.

    I'm trying to work on my tourney game as it sucks.

    Do you happily take races?

    Are you ever all in for your tournament life in a tournament?

    How often would you Semi-Bluff all in?

    Do you push on draws?

    Do you particularly seek out shorter stacks to get involved with so you have no chance of busting?



    It seems to me that I am afraid of races in tourneys, I also dislike pushing on draws. I semi-bluff quite well but never a push ( is this a weakness).
    I dont particularly seek out shorter stacks... should I?

    Thanks Lads.


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,356 ✭✭✭NeVeR


    I dont think alot of players will answer those questions,,

    I might be wrong tho.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,810 ✭✭✭✭jimmii


    It all depends on the stage of the tournament, stack/blind size, position, level of opponent etc. Hard to say yes or no to any of them overall. Except:

    Are you ever all in for your tournament life in a tournament?
    Usually happens atleast once unless I win the tournament.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,448 ✭✭✭Lazare


    There's a lot of 'it depends' in your questions.
    Do you happily take races?

    This depends on some variables, ie, how short you are, what stage of the tournament it is, will I have a chance to knock out the only threat at the table etc etc.. If it's +EV to take a race, you should never turn it down.
    Are you ever all in for your tournament life in a tournament?

    You'll find everyone bar the winner is at some stage, but I know what you mean. A perfect tournament for you would see you never committing your stack, but obviously that's not always gonna be the case. You goal should be to get all your stack in when you know your hand is good, and not be afraid of a suckout.

    How often would you Semi-Bluff all in?

    There's no answer to this question. In shallower tournaments you will be forced to do it more often than deep. It seems the 'all in' is what you have an issue with, you should lose this fear of going bust.

    Do you push on draws?

    This is a semi bluff. As above.

    Do you particularly seek out shorter stacks to get involved with so you have no chance of busting

    No. Tigten your range into shorter stacks, and loosen it calling them (<15BB).
    Put pressure on med stacks as they are less likely to get involved, but a lot depends on table dynamics.
    I like to 'seek out' bigger stacks, preferably those big enough to double me up, and play more pots in position with them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 628 ✭✭✭jacQues


    Anyway I have a question aimed at all the top tournament players here, aka LuckyLloyd, recent APAT Winner Jacques etc etc and all the consistent tournament ITM finishers.
    Whoa! :eek: I don't consider myself to be a top poker player with just one win, however nice. :D I rather see myself as a top gamer instead. :cool:
    Do you happily take races?
    Are you ever all in for your tournament life in a tournament?
    Both are not by choice. If by choice, they never happen. But the way a tournament goes it may be simply unavoidable and usually -EV to not take them. By raising/calling all-in you change the situation, whatever it is. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. Learn to see when its needed/wanted and when its silly/wreckless.
    How often would you Semi-Bluff all in?
    Do you push on draws?
    A draw is a semi-bluff, no? Semi-bluffing is something you want to use as a 'mix up'. Usually check, sometimes bet, always keeping your opponent guessing. Whether its an all-in bet or not depends on the stacks, blinds, reads, community cards and pot size. As a rough estimate, about 1:5 I'd bet and 4:5 I'd check. Note that the same (with reverse odds) may apply to made hands. Saying this doesn't change the fact that my opponents still have to guess weather I'm betting/checking paint or semi air.
    Do you particularly seek out shorter stacks to get involved with so you have no chance of busting?
    No. Pin pointing opponents is normal. Usually a big fish or someone who you can read like a book. Seeking out by stack isn't something I do. If anything, a big stack is easier to 'attack' if you can dent their stack, since in general they fold easier whereas shortstacks may get push-happy.

    jacQues
    (:cool: hamster)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,434 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    This post has been deleted.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,035 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    1. Do you happily take races?

    2. Are you ever all in for your tournament life in a tournament?

    3. How often would you Semi-Bluff all in?

    4. Do you push on draws?

    5. Do you particularly seek out shorter stacks to get involved with so you have no chance of busting?

    Very open questions really. I'm not sure if I qualify as a good tourney player but heres my take.

    Alot of what you do in tourneys is based on what you know about your opponents. For example you are more likely to semi-bluff all-in against players that you are fairly certain will fold TP or a marginal hand and so on. Thats why simple answers to questions like these are not really possible.

    1. You won't find me all-in on the first hand of a tournament without a premium hand in good deep stack tourneys. You might see a hand early in a tourney where a player raises for example, another one re-raises and the original player re-re-raises and they get it all-in eventually. Depending on the hand I'm more likely to stop the action by just calling rather then pushing a re-raise. Again it's very dependent to the circumstances. An hour or two in and you could well seeing me racing yet again depending on the circumstances (you asked). Also if it's early then how can you know you will be racing? This topic is debated very often here and there are a range of views on it.

    2. Goes without saying I think. What exactly are you asking? I suppose it's possible to avoid this if you take a chip lead early and keep it but it's a given you'll have all your chips in more than once surely.

    3. Player dependent. Alot of this kind of play is wasted on donkeys so identify them early. Having said that a semi-bluff means you have outs so there will be times you don't mind being called and any kind of chance the opponent will fold is a bonus.

    4. This is pretty much the same as 3. Make an educated decision on the value of pushing the draw in the circumstances you find yourself in. Are you last to act? Maybe take a free card if you think hitting your draw might give someone else a decent second best hand. Maniac on your left who will bet if you check. Check-raise him to win an extra bet you would have lost had everyone folded to your push. Etc. etc. And so on.

    5. There are good times to attack shorties. Good opportunities like when they are the BB, you are the Button with an above average hand that stands to beat his random hand if he pushes to your raise in desperation. Bad times like stealing with 72o with a shortie in the blinds etc. In general though I've seen it mentioned before and it's generally good practice to go after the mid-stacks who are comfortable enough to fold in the blinds or when they have limped with marginal holdings. If they re-raise you they are probably strong etc. wheras a big stack may re-raise you with more marginal hands because he can afford to.

    I think you need to hit 2+2's tourney threads (I need to spend more time there myself). Anyway maybe the experts will come in and give some better answers. I'm still learning myself 4 years on.

    *Edit I see some of our luminaries have answered while I typed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,039 ✭✭✭Theresalwaysone


    I realise this is situation dependent and I prob should have stated this in my OP but lets say all these questios are asked at:

    50BB
    30BB
    20BB

    How different are the answers then?

    "Learn to see when its needed/wanted and when its silly/wreckless."

    Can you give me examples of these? i.e. when its silly or when its needed?

    Oh and sorry that question about the draws was meant to be

    Do you ever semi bluff for all your stack?

    Thanks Lads


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,434 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,810 ✭✭✭✭jimmii


    The main thing you want to do in tournaments is just keep building your stack in as low risk a fashion as possible. Target players you find that are weak (there are some at every table in every tournament unless you are very unlucky or playing above your level) and try take as many chips as you can from them. As long as you stay above 35BB then just worry about who's blinds you are stealing next not if you should push with a draw. When you get down to 20bb then you need change it up and try get that stack back up or else you can quickly find yourself too low and doubling up means your stack is still not too healthy.


  • Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    Depends on what the "semi" is in "semi bluffing". The other questions are too situational to give definite answers to.

    DeV.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 628 ✭✭✭jacQues


    "Learn to see when its needed/wanted and when its silly/wreckless."
    Can you give me examples of these? i.e. when its silly or when its needed?
    That depends on your own unique playing style as well as the playing styles of your opponent. It is impossible to write out a chart where you can read what to do in what situation. Personally, I work a lot with feeling and reads. I can do all the maths in the world but start talking implied odds and other expert poker maths it quickly becomes very complicated. Poker isn't just maths, since you're dealing with players. To my personal experience, the most chips you'll collect in any tournament is because your opponents make mistakes (or get unlucky). Those mistakes are made because the applied poker maths aren't easy. If everyone played perfect poker and nobody made mistakes then it would be left to the run of cards to decide who wins.

    So in short - try out a few different approaches towards this 'problem' and see which one works best for you. Although for game situations the number of BBs matters a lot, philosophically speaking, for the underlying matter it doesn't matter at all. Explaining all those strategies you want to know in detail would take very long, as in book-size. Maybe read a good poker book first and then come back for more specific questions? No disrespect intended. General answers and very specific answers are easier to give and have more value than approximate answers, which is the best I can do for the questions at hand.

    jacQues


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 900 ✭✭✭CaptainNemo


    Do you happily take races?

    It depends if I need to double up or not. If I'm comfortable in chips then I will avoid calling off all my chips for a possible race situation. However that doesn't mean I won't push, knowing that if I get called I'm probably in a race. Pushing is much, much better - when you add folding equity to your race possibility then it's a very +EV move.

    I'll only call for a race (e.g. if the SB pushes into my BB when I have 22/33/44) if I really need the chips - e.g. if it's the final table and I'm one of the shortest stacks. After all, he could have 66. You can never be absolutely sure that you're in a race.


    Are you ever all in for your tournament life in a tournament?

    Every single tournament.

    How often would you Semi-Bluff all in?

    I will only do this if I think there's a good chance that I can take the pot down without a showdown. There's no point in doing this if you know your opponent won't fold his hand.

    Do you push on draws?

    Isn't this the same question as above? Anyway, yes, sometimes.

    Do you particularly seek out shorter stacks to get involved with so you have no chance of busting?

    From the tone of your questions I'm guessing that maybe you suck at tournaments because you're too afraid of busting out and too concerned with avoiding all-in situations? This may be a good policy if you're Phil Hellmuth but I think for most people the most important quality in NL tournament play is fearlessness. If you try to avoid races and all-in situations then people will just start pushing at your blinds and bluffing at you more often. Sometimes one dodgy call in the BB, even if you lose the hand, can make you more chips in the long run because people become afraid to push at you without a real hand. A "bad" move in any specific hand can do good things for you in many other hands later on. I think I've moved beyond the scope of your questions anyway :-) I'm still learning about tournament play myself so nothing I've said should be taken as gospel in any way, these are just opinions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,846 ✭✭✭Moneymaker


    Q: Do you happily take races?

    A: Unless its totally unavoidable, no. No poker player should be happy calling off his chips on a 50-50.

    Q: Are you ever all in for your tournament life in a tournament?

    A: If I have the best hand, i'll gladly go all-in!

    Q: How often would you Semi-Bluff all in?

    A: Depends on the player and whether or not I can get him off his hand.

    Q: Do you push on draws?

    A: See above.

    Q: Do you particularly seek out shorter stacks to get involved with so you have no chance of busting?

    A: I go after players who are weak and who I know I can out-play and have an edge on. Their stack is irrelevant.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,615 ✭✭✭Mr.Plough


    I'm still learning about tournament play myself so nothing I've said should be taken as gospel in any way, these are just opinions.


    everything you said sounds spot on to me anyway


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,434 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,434 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭careca


    musician wrote:
    Also if it's early then how can you know you will be racing?
    Just typed up a long reply about this being very important and it got deleted. I was hopeful I might have got post of the year with it. Ah well.

    Synopsis.

    Can only put player on range of hands not exact hand to know we are racing (preflop anyway).
    Finding out when the cards are flipped that you are racing is a different story.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,083 ✭✭✭RoundTower


    Well Lads,

    I am primarily a cash game player, that is because I am terrible in tournaments ( terrible in cash too but thats not relevant right now).

    If you become good at cash games you will be profitable in any tourney in the world.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,537 ✭✭✭Ste05


    Do you happily take races?
    If it's +EV to do so, you need to win your 50/50's to win a tournament, it's almost impossible to win one without flipping a couple of times. Usually the value of a double up will make the flip worth taking.
    Are you ever all in for your tournament life in a tournament?
    If you're not AI for your tournament Life from time to time either you've somehow luckboxed your way into a huge stack, have been hit in the head by the deck or you're not playing properly, if a situation requires you put your stack in, either by calling or pushing, it should be done. Unless you are interested in just creeping into or up the money ladder. In which case, without a great run of cards you won't win the tournament. You'll wait for AA while your stack dwindles down and then get dogged by QQ, or just pick up the blinds. Neither is really that appealing.
    How often would you Semi-Bluff all in?
    Depends.... I certainly would if it's +EV to do so.
    Do you push on draws?
    Not always... it depends.
    Do you particularly seek out shorter stacks to get involved with so you have no chance of busting?
    No, they are the worst stacks to try and rob from, seek out people who have similar stacks to yourself, or people you can do damage to, although I would have a much wider range for calling a shorty's AI because their range would be wider.
    It seems to me that I am afraid of races in tourneys, I also dislike pushing on draws. I semi-bluff quite well but never a push ( is this a weakness).
    As Lloyd says MTT's are savagely variance intensive, you might play perfect poker in every MTT you play and never win one, you might play terribly in a satellite and luck box your way into the WSOP, then get hit with the deck again for 7 days and become the "Best player in the World".

    It's just Variance...


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,035 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    LuckyLloyd wrote:
    This line of thinking is badly flawed.

    This line of responding is overused and nicked from HJ. :)
    LuckyLloyd wrote:
    Folks - all of you saying that you don't think you should call off on a coinflip in the early stages of a tournament; or you should be fearful of shoving draws...etc.

    Such thought processes are, with the greatest of respect, utter bullsh!t. Tournaments are variance heavy - embrace it. And most people (including myself definately) way overestimate their edge in no - limit tournaments.

    So early in a tournament you will have enough information on a player to perfectly identify that pushing will give you positive expectation? Fair enough if so.

    It's rather weak play imo to find yourself with all your chips in the middle early in a tournament without good reason. If you have some kind of psychic ability and know Mr. XYZ is pushing with a small pair against your AKs then off you go but in the real world I don't think you can know. You can't even put him on a range of hands. If you know the player before the tournament even starts then fine but lets concentrate on the more likely scenario considering the amount of loolas (?) you meet at the felt these days.

    Most posts have suggested you might want some FE and you might want to know your enemy and you might want to be pretty sure it's +EV before donking them in.

    It's very player dependent and it's not about fear of getting your chips all-in. I really don't think people have that fear. It's a way of explaining conservative play but even the most conservative player moves them in when they have to. There are of course a minority of players that let themselves get blinded away but they are rare if you ask me.

    So it's not about overcoming some mysterious fear that I would suggest doesn't really exist. It's about doing it at the right time. About learning to know the right time. Getting the confidence to believe in your reads so you can put them in without any doubts. I just think we need to move on from constantly berating people who talk about caution before committing all your chips. We need to discuss how we can know when it's the right time.

    Say we argued over whether we should put all our chips in if we are 51% to win the hand. Whats wrong with that kind of discussion? How the hell do we know to that acccuracy that we have a 1% edge especially in the first few hands of a tournament.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,537 ✭✭✭Ste05


    musician wrote:
    So early in a tournament you will have enough information on a player to perfectly identify that pushing will give you positive expectation? Fair enough if so.
    In those situations I would just use the "standard player" for the tournament I'm playing in to assign ranges to assess the situation. For me, reads are just a way of knowing how a player varies from the "Standard" if it's way off, so be it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,846 ✭✭✭Moneymaker


    LuckyLloyd wrote:
    This is wrong.

    It's wrong to think tossing a coin for your whole stack is wrong. Right......


    LuckyLloyd wrote:
    This line of thinking is badly flawed.

    It's wrong to want to play pots with players you know you have an edge on? That makes sense........:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,894 ✭✭✭✭phantom_lord


    1. yeah it is wrong! for reasons others can explain better... basically your chance of cashing/winning more than double. if for example you took a coin flip at the start of every tourny you play, your results should be better than if you just player normally. anyway, coin flips are normally +ev in their own right cause of dead money, blinds + antes and what not.

    2. that's not what he meant, "Their stack is irrelevant." this is flawed thinking! other players stack sizes are really relevent to what range of hands you can raise/play, ignoring stack sizes is really bad.


  • Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    A lot of players in tournies I have covered have said things like "I was playing great, I didnt have all my chips in and called once".
    I would also say something along those lines.

    Thats not to say I wont move my stack when its called for, I certainly will. But from my own experience I've found that the tournies I do best in are the tournies were I build and steal, build and steal.... by the time anyone figures out what I'm up to and makes a stand, I can afford to either back down or go over the top of them with a racing hand (hopefully!).

    Sometimes you have to make a stand with a hand and if you are unwilling to get involved in big pots then all I have to do is make a pot big to win it against you. That said, I dont actively seek out such coinflips as I prefer to steal lots of 10bb pots then go for the motherlode in a coinflip.

    I havent explained myself clearly here, but I hope the jist of my point gets accross.

    DeV.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,448 ✭✭✭Lazare


    Moneymaker wrote:

    It's wrong to want to play pots with players you know you have an edge on? That makes sense........:rolleyes:
    A: I go after players who are weak and who I know I can out-play and have an edge on. Their stack is irrelevant.

    In fairness this statement is nonsense. Of course your opponents stack is relevant. The OP's question was reffering to short stacks in particular, you don't 'out-play' someone with 12BB, and you rarely ever have an edge.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,035 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    Ste05 wrote:
    In those situations I would just use the "standard player" for the tournament I'm playing in to assign ranges to assess the situation. For me, reads are just a way of knowing how a player varies from the "Standard" if it's way off, so be it.

    Well AK is probably a favorite over most standard ranges? First hand in a tournament. Don't know the player from Adam. He pushes pre-flop. I fold. Surely as a tournament goes on your edge increases if your ability to put players on more specific ranges rises? I take Lloyd's point about variance in tourneys but I think you contribute to this variance by making risky plays early. I'm not saying don't be agressive. By all means study your table, time your attacks, control the pots but get your chips in on the first hand with what a standard range dictates could be a race at best?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,434 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    This post has been deleted.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,035 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    Blimey can we get past the "if it's +EV" statements and start talking about how we know it's +EV. Is it a given that your small pair or AK is +EV to an all-in in the first hand of the WSOP so you call? I'm sure I'm wrong in my reasoning that I can't know if it's +EV in the first hand of a tournament against Andy Anon but somebody tell me why. At least we can get away from the "if you are a favorite then call" stuff.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,434 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    This post has been deleted.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,035 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    O.k. maybe we should drag up some old threads on it point in their general direction. Interesting what Robin said about the calculated ranges v AK but I wonder if perhaps we might assign a smaller/tighter range to an unknown depending on the circumstances that would make it more unlikely to be a coin flip.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,894 ✭✭✭✭phantom_lord


    you can flip post flop too!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,039 ✭✭✭Theresalwaysone


    OK so I know people will probably Flame all over this but:

    What do people think of a strategy where you try your hardest at a comfortable number of BB's (say 22BB's+, I realise 30BB is seen as a comfortable number but I'm using 22 for this example because it has an added pressure factor) to not get in a race against a stack that is larger than you?

    My line of thinking here is that you are racing and getting a +EV( provided there is dead money and/or Blinds already in the pot) but you do not run the risk of busting out? I understand that shortstack play is exempt from this.

    This is not a strategy that I use just one I have been thinking about lately.

    And Lloyd I agree that "tournament life" should never be a factor in general tourney play, but do you not think it factors coming to the bubble? or big prize money jump?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 628 ✭✭✭jacQues


    And Lloyd I agree that "tournament life" should never be a factor in general tourney play, but do you not think it factors coming to the bubble? or big prize money jump?
    If I know that the player to my left has this tournament life syndrome then I would abuse this by raising limped pots if I'm close to the right side of the button.

    In other words; tournament life should not be a factor regardless, because if you do you have an exploitable weakness. The only exception is when you are playing for tickets instead of a steadily increasing sum of money.

    jacQues


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 683 ✭✭✭The Snapper


    Some pokerstove EV's

    AKo V Top 15% hands

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 38.644% 35.05% 03.59% 95431063 9780629.50 { 77+, A7s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QJo }
    Hand 1: 61.356% 57.76% 03.59% 157264014 9780629.50 { AcKd }
    :D

    AKo V Top 10% hands

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 42.216% 37.07% 05.15% 64106569 8902267.50 { 88+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo }
    Hand 1: 57.784% 52.64% 05.15% 91031600 8902267.50 { AcKd }
    :)

    AKo V Top 5% hands


    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 53.491% 44.06% 09.43% 36209658 7754682.00 { 99+, AJs+, KQs, AKo }
    Hand 1: 46.509% 37.07% 09.43% 30471570 7754682.00 { AcKd }
    :p

    very suprised at those numbers :)

    Great thread and thanks LL for those great 2+2 links


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Hectorjelly


    i would very rarely take a neutral EV spot for all my chips in a tournament


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  • Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    Who the hell is pushing with A7+ in the first set of numbers? A9+ and KTs+ in the second??

    In any sort of decent tournie how exactly are the chips getting in the middle? Are you pushing or calling? How do you know its a coinflip and how sure are you? Do you have any FE? How well do you play a big stack?

    Saying you should never take "tournament life" into consideration is also a dumb statement. I presume you mean you should never be *overly* concerned about it to the point where you play timidly. If you dont care about tournament life, then shove with 23o. Shove every hand in fact.

    I kinda agree with Muso that we havent looked at HOW we know its EV-neutral and I think this is a hypothetical question that doesnt illuminate much, similar to the AA in the first hand of the WSOP etc.

    DeV.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 306 ✭✭PiperT


    DeVore wrote:
    Who the hell is pushing with A7+ in the first set of numbers? A9+ and KTs+ in the second??

    In any sort of decent tournie how exactly are the chips getting in the middle? Are you pushing or calling? How do you know its a coinflip and how sure are you? Do you have any FE? How well do you play a big stack?

    Saying you should never take "tournament life" into consideration is also a dumb statement. I presume you mean you should never be *overly* concerned about it to the point where you play timidly. If you dont care about tournament life, then shove with 23o. Shove every hand in fact.

    I kinda agree with Muso that we havent looked at HOW we know its EV-neutral and I think this is a hypothetical question that doesnt illuminate much, similar to the AA in the first hand of the WSOP etc.

    DeV.

    Absolutely agree with this. How do you know you are racing in the first place whether pushing or calling lol ?

    Calling range for a "race" is totally different to pushing range and even at that you can only guess what your opponent is holding. What if you're wrong ? ( which a lot of the time we are..)

    Its one thing pushing or calling with JJ and hoping to run into AK/AQ, but the fact is you never know if you're racing until after you have made the decision to play. (assuming we all interpret a race to be as close to a coinflip as possible)


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,035 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    DeVore wrote:
    I kinda agree with Muso that we havent looked at HOW we know its EV-neutral and I think this is a hypothetical question that doesnt illuminate much, similar to the AA in the first hand of the WSOP etc.

    What I'm trying to get at in my usual crap way is that the longer the tournament goes on the more acurately you can identify a situation as +EV or -EV and therefore the better decisions you can make and of course the field is dimiinishing at the same time. I think it's arguable this gives you as much of an extra edge as doubling-up on a coin-flip in the first hand.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,434 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,434 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    This post has been deleted.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 259 ✭✭con_leche


    On coinflipping from Moneymaker:

    "Q: Do you happily take races?

    A: Unless its totally unavoidable, no. No poker player should be happy calling off his chips on a 50-50."


    1. As stated in numerous threads, by Roundtower, LL, etc., with the blinds and antes, a coin-flip can become ++EV.

    2. The escallating payout structure and quality of field must be considered. Is it not correct to play coin-flip pre-flop poker if you are on a table with world class players? Since they know they have a huge post flop advantage, is it not hugely +EV to leverage fold equity here - i.e. they can make the big laydowns hoping to use their edge post flop. Why give them the chance?

    3. A good player, should have assigned a tight hand range to his opponent, so a true 50/50 rarely occurs, more like a 55/45, or 60/40, or 33/66, or 30/70so the term coinflip rarely if ever actually applies. Each situation is different.

    4. Proven tournie winners like Roland Der Wolfe actively seek out every opportunity to solicit chips. If you shy away from every race, where does your edge come from in a huge field - getting dealt more bullets [or Kings]than the next man?

    5. You need to give yourself the chance to get lucky - e.g. Chris Ferguson's WSOP win, especially if you have some chips. You lose one race, you can always get lucky later on.

    Ideally you play the small pots, and never go all in, and have the tank to play pre-flop poker late on in the tournie and take the blinds down by bullying. But where does the tank come from? Therein lies the question. LOL.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 218 ✭✭CelticPhantom


    LuckyLloyd wrote:
    I'll write more in response to the various points raised tomorrow.
    How do you know what various points will be raised tomorrow ??? :confused:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,039 ✭✭✭Theresalwaysone


    How do you know what various points will be raised tomorrow ??? :confused:

    Lmfao
    Did no one tell you? Lloyd is psychic.......


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,434 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 223 ✭✭Four-Too


    Question 1: Only when I am short-stacked I am happy to take races to try and get a double up, and if I am way ahead of a short stack I will always take a race just to knock them out.

    Question 2: I go all-in regular enough, not expecting to be called. 70% of the time I am sure I'm ahead, the rest of the time I may have 9 high!

    Question 3: Once or twice in a tournament I semi-bluff all-in, I only do this on the flop, it is rare. Sometimes I don't know where I stand and I go all-in on the flop with AdQd , on a flop such as 2d-4c-9d. I never want a caller but if I get one, at least a flush can save me. This is where you're heart races!

    Question 4: No! Good players will pick up on this and call you. It is a bit crazy.

    Question 5: No! Short stacks generally only play big hands, you only let them back into the game if you gamble with them , and soon enough they come back , and bite!


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