What happened to the 250km/h covenant?

unkel

Did I miss something? Just spotted that the Audi R8 does a top speed of over 300km/h. What happened to the 250km/h covenant that German car manufacturers (well most of them, Porsche is an exception) were sticking to?

Next the others will drop the limiters too and then the German Autobahns will get speed limits, or am I ranting now?

Seth Brundle

http://www.autoblog.com/2005/07/14/manufacturers-may-lift-155-mph-limits/

E92

The 'gentlemans agreement' may soon be a thing of the past, as soon it may well be complusory. There is a Limeral Democrat MP in the UK who wants to ban cars which can go faster than 101 mph, yes you read that correctly 101 MPH. I'll repeat it again 101 MPH. Knowing the Eurocrats, I wouldn't put it past them to introduce such as ridiculous rule....in fact the EU have been trying to force Germany to get rid of its speed limit free Autobahns for quite some time now. Well they are 40% of the way there at the moment, its now believed that only 60 % of German Autobahn don't have a speed limit anymore, and its going down and down and down:mad:

http://www.myautocar.com/community/blog/blog.do?method=blog&sblogId=gwM

In fact the EU are making all the noises that speed limiters are on the way in the not too distant future.[sarcasm] I hope there will be no attempt to make our driving test tougher, after all 'speed kills', and with speed limiters we wont have to worry since we'll never be going fast enough for road deaths to occur, since going slowly will solve all our problems in relation to road deaths:mad: [/sarcasm]

unkel

So was Audi the first (of MB / BMW / Lexus / Audi) to break the covenant?

*Thinks for 2 seconds*

Of course it wasn't. Only considering cars with the above brand badges (and thus not taking into account Audi owned Lamborghinis etc. ) surely the MB McLaren SLR might have been the first to break it. What, that was several years ago

So why aren't the other ones following? I.e. I've no doubt BMW would sell more M5s if they did 320km/h out of the box

Esel

unkel wrote:

I've no doubt BMW would sell more M5s if they did 320km/h out of the box

To potential M5 drivers who are also out of their box!

Tony Danza

unkel wrote:

So was Audi the first (of MB / BMW / Lexus / Audi) to break the covenant?

*Thinks for 2 seconds*

Of course it wasn't. Only considering cars with the above brand badges (and thus not taking into account Audi owned Lamborghinis etc. ) surely the MB McLaren SLR might have been the first to break it. What, that was several years ago

According to wikipedia:

German automakers put a 250 km/h (155 mph) speed limit on their automobiles except sports cars.

C_Breeze

E92 wrote:

The 'gentlemans agreement' may soon be a thing of the past, as soon it may well be complusory. There is a Limeral Democrat MP in the UK who wants to ban cars which can go faster than 101 mph, yes you read that correctly 101 MPH. I'll repeat it again 101 MPH. Knowing the Eurocrats, I wouldn't put it past them to introduce such as ridiculous rule....in fact the EU have been trying to force Germany to get rid of its speed limit free Autobahns for quite some time now. Well they are 40% of the way there at the moment, its now believed that only 60 % of German Autobahn don't have a speed limit anymore, and its going down and down and down:mad:

http://www.myautocar.com/community/blog/blog.do?method=blog&sblogId=gwM

In fact the EU are making all the noises that speed limiters are on the way in the not too distant future.[sarcasm] I hope there will be no attempt to make our driving test tougher, after all 'speed kills', and with speed limiters we wont have to worry since we'll never be going fast enough for road deaths to occur, since going slowly will solve all our problems in relation to road deaths:mad: [/sarcasm]

:mad: :mad: :mad:

That boils my blood , stupid tofu munching nerdlingers. Gimps ... i hope they limit all UK sports car manufacturers aswell (Jaguar, TVR, Aston martins) to 101MPH and see how they like the drop in sales revenue and lack of high road tax etc

peasant

emmm ...

To everyone outside Germany, does it make an ounce of difference whether your M5 is capable of 300 km/h or 250 km/h ?

No ...it's all academic for road use.
And if you want to buy a track car, I'm sure you can specify that when you order it.

Even on a non restricted German Autobahn the extra speed is hardly ever attainable. You'd be very hard pressed to find a stretch where you can actually reach 300 km/h, never mind maintain that speed for longer than a few seconds.

RobAMerc

peasant wrote:

Even on a non restricted German Autobahn the extra speed is hardly ever attainable. You'd be very hard pressed to find a stretch where you can actually reach 300 km/h, never mind maintain that speed for longer than a few seconds.

To be fair in your normal driving, yes this applies - but if you want to find streches where you can go all out it you will.
I managed 230kmph for about 30 mins straight in a hire car - (but they do get outta the way there)

Anan1

I'm on record as defending 200km/h on our road network given the right conditions. Above 250km/h, though, I think things are simply happening too fast for safety - even on a big, seemingly-empty Autobahn.

unkel

peasant wrote:

To everyone outside Germany, does it make an ounce of difference whether your M5 is capable of 300 km/h or 250 km/h ?

To someone considering buying one, I'd say it would make a difference. I'm not saying that is rational though

Anan1

unkel wrote:

To someone considering buying one, I'd say it would make a difference. I'm not saying that is rational though

I think it would make a lot of difference to someone buying an out-and-out sports car, probably a lot less difference to the luxury car brigade. I'd imagine at least some of the reason for the limit has to do with engineering constraints, ie downforce/tyres/suspension. Perhaps many Germans want a car with the ability to accelerate effortlessly at any reasonable speed, but don't want the compromises inherent in a car capable of, say, 280km/h?

Terrontress

Surely if the M5, SL63AMG, Phaeton, RS6 etc were to start exceeding the 155mph point, the manufacturers would have to start putting in brakes capable of stopping from 200mph, upgrade suspension, reduce virbation etc. This will increase prices and therefore reduce sales.

It is in the manufacturers' interests to keep this limit in place.

peasant

Anan1 wrote:

I think it would make a lot of difference to someone buying an out-and-out sports car, probably a lot less difference to the luxury car brigade. I'd imagine at least some of the reason for the limit has to do with engineering constraints, ie downforce/tyres/suspension. Perhaps many Germans want a car with the ability to accelerate effortlessly at any reasonable speed, but don't want the compromises inherent in a car capable of, say, 280km/h?

That's a good point, I'd say engineering parameters change significantly when you aim at 300 km/h as not just a top speed but a cruising speed.

Anan1

peasant wrote:

That's a good point, I'd say engineering parameters change significantly when you aim at 300 km/h as not just a top speed but a cruising speed.

I'd say so. And cars like ours do not look well with spoilers.;)

E92

Oddly enough I think that it is in the interests of car makers to leave the convention of most cars not exceeding 155 mph as it is. It surley makes life easier on the engines of fasst cars that there is no way possible that the engine will be asked to exceed 155 mph .
They would have to develop much better brakes,more advanced chassis, beter aerodynamics etc for a car to exceed 155 mph. It would cost them a whole lot more to develop cars that are designed to exceed 155 mph. Which is why whenever Alpina or Brabus get their hands of top of the line BMWs or Mercs not only do they change the engine and remove the limiter, but they go at the chassis, brakes, aerodynamics etc.

However having a speed limiter that is below 155 mph or one as low as 101 mph is NOT in the interests of the car manufacturers. Because practically every car can do 101 mph. And if every car can do that then there would be absolutely no point in going for a faster car which is certainly not what the car companies want. So I just simply cant see them giving into that.

Anan1

E92 wrote:

However having a speed limiter that is below 155 mph or one as low as 101 mph is NOT in the interests of the car manufacturers. Because practically every car can do 101 mph. And if every car can do that then there would be absolutely no point in going for a faster car which is certainly not what the car companies want. So I just simply cant see them giving into that.

Ah, but there would. I rarely exceed 160km/h, and almost never exceed 200. The nice thing about driving a car that if deristricted could attain huge speeds is that it can do most things without breaking a sweat. Power is still power, even with a speed limiter.

unkel

Good points, but I'm not convinced a car like an M5 is not ready to run @300km/h as is. Obviously there are diminishing returns at some point as the Veyron engineers found out

Anan1 wrote:

cars like ours do not look well with spoilers.;)

There's that of course

JHMEG

Throwing the cat amongst the pigeons here, but is this maybe an advanced response to the Japanese manufacturers deciding to drop (albeit slowly) the 280bhp self-imposed power limit.

How embarrassing would it to be toddling along at 155 in your swanky new BMW only to be blown into the weeds by a 500bhp V10 powered Honda*!:D

galwaytt

JHMEG wrote:

Throwing the cat amongst the pigeons here, but is this maybe an advanced response to the Japanese manufacturers deciding to drop (albeit slowly) the 280bhp self-imposed power limit.

How embarrassing would it to be toddling along at 155 in your swanky new BMW only to be blown into the weeds by a 500bhp V10 powered Honda*!:D

or modified 2.0l 4-cylinder S2000, more like................

unkel

JHMEG wrote:

How embarrassing would it to be toddling along at 155 in your swanky new BMW only to be blown into the weeds by a 500bhp V10 powered Honda

I'd say there are many modified Japanese cars around, that can go faster than 250km/h. Why would an M5 owner be embarrassed to be overtaken by one? An M5 also has a V10 engine and it's more powerful than that out of the box BTW

JHMEG

unkel wrote:

I'd say there are many modified Japanese cars around, that can go faster than 250km/h. Why would an M5 owner be embarrassed to be overtaken by one? An M5 also has a V10 engine and it's more powerful than that out of the box BTW

My comment was tonque-in-cheek!

Any standard NSX will pass an M5. As will many standard Skylines, Supras, GT3000s etc.

(The new 5.0L V10 NSX has been confirmed, but the power hasn't. Some rumours put it at 800bhp, but we know it'll be a minimum of 500bhp.)

unkel

JHMEG wrote:

Any standard NSX will pass an M5

Eh, yeah. On a straight line only. And only because the M5 has a speed limiter!

A humble small family hatch (also handicapped because of a limiter) like a BMW 130 will beat that NSX in a race as I recently showed you

That new NSX is fugly by the way. Senna would turn in his grave if he could see that although I'm sure he would have liked to play with 800BHP in a road car

JHMEG

unkel wrote:

Eh, yeah. On a straight line only. And only because the M5 has a speed limiter!

A humble small family hatch (also handicapped because of a limiter) like a BMW 130 will beat that NSX in a race as I recently showed you

That new NSX is fugly by the way. Senna would turn in his grave if he could see that although I'm sure he would have liked to play with 800BHP in a road car

Worth watching. I like the slogan at the end:
http://www.vbox7.com/play:d3431a26

Funnily enough M5 owners reckon the NSX blows away the M5 on the track: "Don't forget, the NSX-R laps the ring in 7:56, pretty damn good for a chassis that is 17 years old. It would easily destroy an M5/6 on the track."
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1066420

Best time on the ring I can find for the E60 M5 is 8:13 (this page has the NSX-R doing it in 8:09)
http://wheeltalk.fancal.net/?p=476

Beauty, eye, beholder, and all that. A worthy successor IMHO.

unkel

Wow, the Veyron has made it around the Ring. I wasn't aware of that. And it was damn fast even though it's very heavy. I've been vindicated!

JHMEG wrote:

Any standard NSX will pass an M5

JHMEG wrote:

this page has the NSX-R

*coughs*

BTW neither clip plays for me in either IE7 or Opera 9.21. Any idea?