Wife Behaviour in the Bible..

Medina

just thought it would be interesting to post some passages from the Bible which encourage a wife to be obedient to her husband, and her husband to be kind to her.... Its not very detailed research just some passages I noted over a period of time.


Genesis 3:16
To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."


1 Corinthians 11
Propriety in Worship
2I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,[a] just as I passed them on to you.
3Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved. 6If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 7A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.
11In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God. 13Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God.



Ephesians 5 Wives and Husbands
22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."[c] 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.



Colossians 3
Rules for Christian Households
18Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
19Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.




Timothy 2
9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.




Titus 2
What Must Be Taught to Various Groups
1You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine. 2Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance.
3Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.
6Similarly, encourage the young men to be self-controlled. 7In everything set them an example by doing what is good. In your teaching show integrity, seriousness 8and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned, so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us.



1 Peter 3
Wives and Husbands
1Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. 4Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. 5For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, 6like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.
7Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

BrianCalgary

Love it. Which one woul dyou like to discuss first?

What I glean form all these verses is that I have to love my wife. Raise her above all others. Care for and nurture her and make her most important.

And guess what; it works. I hear other guys moan about their marriages, yet mine is very strong because we both honour, respect and love one another.

Whereas the guys who moan about their wives are usually selfish, or their wives are too demanding of what the fellow can give.

Medina

There is no particular one , I agree with most of them completely.

I suppose the only one I question is whether you as a Christian following a Christian scripture do you think woman should not be teachers or have authority over man?

And secondly wondering why Christian women dont cover their heads in prayer then? I know they used to (in my granny's day) but not anymore....

robindch

And secondly wondering why Christian women dont cover their heads in prayer then?

Because it's gone out of fashion? Probably the same reason that people don't prostrate themselves in the church any more (as still happens in mosques), or stand for the whole service (as happens in the orthodox church), or sit divided by sex (like in mosques too), or listen to sermons denouncing "braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry", or indeed do many of the things that used to happen in the past.

Society changes and religion changes with it -- the social conventions of thousands of years ago are simply no longer thought applicable, or even useful, by most people. So religion updates itself to keep pace.

BrianCalgary

Medina wrote:

There is no particular one , I agree with most of them completely.

I suppose the only one I question is whether you as a Christian following a Christian scripture do you think woman should not be teachers or have authority over man?

And secondly wondering why Christian women dont cover their heads in prayer then? I know they used to (in my granny's day) but not anymore....

Either of those verses have a cultural context to them. In the quote from Timothy the number changes from women to woman. So Timothy is saying that he does not permit a woman to teach. The one line of thinking is that Timothy is referring to a particular woman and not all women.

Also at this time women were so uneducated that they wouldn't have the ability to teach. One of my mentors and teachers is a wonderful woman who has so much to give and to teach that I can't shut off half the population from this type of service. Especially since Paul was taught by his mother, I believe.

The part about covering the head is also cultural, althoug at the minute I can't remember the specifics behind this verse.

The gold braids is also asking women to dress modestly and also I think to not turn church into a fashion contest. At our church our ladies Christmas tea has turned into a contest to see who can make the nicest centre piece.:rolleyes: While another church has hookers come and join them. (love to see the looks on some of our ladies faces if such women appeared at our doorway).

It is important to find out the culture at the time which would lead to such statements. Then you can discover what the writer is intending to communicate.

Medina

The passage from Timothy is Paul speaking to Timothy

Also it is clear that Paul is not talking about a specific woman in general but about women as a whole. The same way I can say 'A man should be..' .its obvious because of the indefinite article no specific person is being referenced. And its also common sense in fairness Brian?

The thing is I dont understand why you pick a piece like this and say its a cultural thing . According to the Vatican the Bible is the Word of God therefore all its teachings and instruction should surely be implemented?

see in the Catholic Catechism:

104 In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, "but as what it really is, the word of God".67 "In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them."68

II. INSPIRATION AND TRUTH OF SACRED SCRIPTURE

105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69

"For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself."70

106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."71

107 The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."72


Paul himself said that his message came not from the apostles but from Revealation revealed to him directly from Jesus Christ.

You see from my point of view, current practices which do not match are excused as cultural differences. Christ broke cultural norms in relation to women and elevated religion above culture.

JimiTime

Medina wrote:

I suppose the only one I question is whether you as a Christian following a Christian scripture do you think woman should not be teachers or have authority over man?

All people are teachers when they share the good news. All people are teachers when they are an example of goodness. As for authority, the scripture says woman came from man but all came from God. In this way, woman, in a spiritual sense, cannot hold authority over man, just as man cannot have authority over God. Notice, that even in the passage in Peter, where the woman is wife to a non-believing husband, she is still respectful to his authority, even though he is a non-believer, so that she can in fact teach him by example the Good news.

And secondly wondering why Christian women dont cover their heads in prayer then? I know they used to (in my granny's day) but not anymore....

Oh but they do.

Doth not even nature itself teach you that if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her, for her hair is given her for a covering.

BrianCalgary

Medina wrote:

The passage from Timothy is Paul speaking to Timothy .

Yes I know. When we say 'from Timothy' it is understood that it is the Book of Timothy.

Medina wrote:

Also it is clear that Paul is not talking about a specific woman in general but about women as a whole. The same way I can say 'A man should be..' .its obvious because of the indefinite article no specific person is being referenced. And its also common sense in fairness Brian? .

Not neccesarily. I have read a number of commentaries that indicate that the switch from plural to singular in the passage means that Paul is now referencing a particular woman that both he and timothy would know.

Medina wrote:

The thing is I dont understand why you pick a piece like this and say its a cultural thing . According to the Vatican the Bible is the Word of God therefore all its teachings and instruction should surely be implemented?.

Yes we should follow the teachings of God's word. However in determining those teachings we have to undersatnd what the author is saying. In order to determine it we have to ascertain who teh author is, who are they writing to and are their any historical and cultural facts that need to be known to better understand the passage.

Medina wrote:

see in the Catholic Catechism:

104 In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, "but as what it really is, the word of God".67 "In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them."68

II. INSPIRATION AND TRUTH OF SACRED SCRIPTURE

105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69

"For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself."70

106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."71

107 The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."72


Paul himself said that his message came not from the apostles but from Revealation revealed to him directly from Jesus Christ.

You see from my point of view, current practices which do not match are excused as cultural differences. Christ broke cultural norms in relation to women and elevated religion above culture.

Yes Christ did break the cultural norms and elevated women to a higher status within society. But it does not take away the necessity of proper hermeneutics to understand what I stated above.

Medina

JimiTime wrote:

All people are teachers when they share the good news. All people are teachers when they are an example of goodness. As for authority, the scripture says woman came from man but all came from God. In this way, woman, in a spiritual sense, cannot hold authority over man, just as man cannot have authority over God. Notice, that even in the passage in Peter, where the woman is wife to a non-believing husband, she is still respectful to his authority, even though he is a non-believer, so that she can in fact teach him by example the Good news.

100% agree with you here...however what type of teacher is it then that Paul is instructing women not to be?

JimiTime wrote:

Oh but they do.

Doth not even nature itself teach you that if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her, for her hair is given her for a covering.

5And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved. 6If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off;

I think this verse indicates that the covering he is talking about is not her hair.

But if we work with backwards with your reasoning that hair is a covering then the line 4Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. indicates that men should pray with bald heads?

So which should it be? Covered /uncovered (not meaning hair) or covered / uncovered meaning hair?

Medina

BrianCalgary wrote:

Not neccesarily. I have read a number of commentaries that indicate that the switch from plural to singular in the passage means that Paul is now referencing a particular woman that both he and timothy would know.

I think your argument is based on semantics and very weak. But we will let this one drop

BrianCalgary wrote:

Yes we should follow the teachings of God's word. However in determining those teachings we have to undersatnd what the author is saying. In order to determine it we have to ascertain who teh author is, who are they writing to and are their any historical and cultural facts that need to be known to better understand the passage.

1) Do you understand what the author is saying?
2) Do you know who the author is?
3) Do you know who he is writing to?
4) What historical and cultural facts do you need to know that you currently dont know that would enable your understanding further ?

BrianCalgary wrote:

Yes Christ did break the cultural norms and elevated women to a higher status within society. But it does not take away the necessity of proper hermeneutics to understand what I stated above.

niiiiice word Brian
Hope i can learn it and use in the right context...

Definitions of HERMENEUTICS on the Web:

The pursuit of meaning following specified principles of interpretation. Originally hermeneutics referred to the process of interpreting religious writings. However, much literary criticism amounts to a secular hermeneutics. Notably exceptions include most structuralist and post-structuralist criticism. These non-hermeneutic approaches focus not on discovering what a text means but rather on how meaning is deployed or subverted.
www2.cumberlandcollege.edu/acad/english/litcritweb/glossary.htm

The science of interpreting the written word, to find what the text actually meant. What God originally meant it to say. Eliminating what it never could have meant. This includes the whole field of interpretation. The use of tools such as a different bibles (word for word translations and paraphrase), bible dictionaries, interlinear, Greek word pictures and tenses, Concordance, etc.
www.calvarychapel.com/redbarn/terms.htm


If that passage requires hermeneutics...then you are saying it requires interpretation...how else can it be interpreted other than as it says?

waiting for your suggestions on possible interpretations.....

BrianCalgary

Medina wrote:

I think your argument is based on semantics and very weak. But we will let this one drop




1) Do you understand what the author is saying?
2) Do you know who the author is?
3) Do you know who he is writing to?
4) What historical and cultural facts do you need to know that you currently dont know that would enable your understanding further ?




niiiiice word Brian
Hope i can learn it and use in the right context...

Definitions of HERMENEUTICS on the Web:

The pursuit of meaning following specified principles of interpretation. Originally hermeneutics referred to the process of interpreting religious writings. However, much literary criticism amounts to a secular hermeneutics. Notably exceptions include most structuralist and post-structuralist criticism. These non-hermeneutic approaches focus not on discovering what a text means but rather on how meaning is deployed or subverted.
www2.cumberlandcollege.edu/acad/english/litcritweb/glossary.htm

The science of interpreting the written word, to find what the text actually meant. What God originally meant it to say. Eliminating what it never could have meant. This includes the whole field of interpretation. The use of tools such as a different bibles (word for word translations and paraphrase), bible dictionaries, interlinear, Greek word pictures and tenses, Concordance, etc.
www.calvarychapel.com/redbarn/terms.htm


If that passage requires hermeneutics...then you are saying it requires interpretation...how else can it be interpreted other than as it says?

waiting for your suggestions on possible interpretations.....

Which passage would you like to do a study on?

We'll begin a new thread.

Medina

This one :

1 Corinthians 11
Propriety in Worship
2I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,[a] just as I passed them on to you.
3Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved. 6If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 7A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.
11In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God. 13Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God.

PDN

Medina wrote:

And secondly wondering why Christian women dont cover their heads in prayer then? I know they used to (in my granny's day) but not anymore....

Are you in Dublin? If so then pop into Abbey Presbyterian Church on Parnell Square any Sunday evening. You will see about 800 Romanian Pentecostal Christians worshipping, and all their women wear headcoverings. The same practice is very common among Christians in a number of cultures.

JimiTime

Medina wrote:

100% agree with you here...however what type of teacher is it then that Paul is instructing women not to be?

To me it points towards a position as a congregational teacher. Though, the passage in Peter about the non-believing husband, suggests that even in this case do not win him over by words but rather example, so it maybe reaches further.

5And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved. 6If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off;

I think this verse indicates that the covering he is talking about is not her hair.

But if we work with backwards with your reasoning that hair is a covering then the line 4Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. indicates that men should pray with bald heads?

So which should it be? Covered /uncovered (not meaning hair) or covered / uncovered meaning hair?

You've given me real food for thought there. It does seem to indicate that the covering is not hair. However, The prophets had bald heads as part of their, for want of a better term, uniform. Could it also mean therefore, that indeed, a man should be shorn? The following from the KJV.

5But every woman who prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoreth her head, for that is one and the same as if she were shaven.

6For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

On first glance, I thought this was a punishment, but it seems to be saying that if woman is uncovered, let her be as the men, but if this is a shame to her(having a shorn head) let her be covered. However, Paul goes on to say the following:

Judge for yourselves: Is it comely that a woman should pray unto God uncovered? 14 Doth not even nature itself teach you that if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her, for her hair is given her for a covering.
16But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

So this seems to indicate, that there is no customs that allow a woman to be shorn, so just remain covered.

I'm probably overcomplicating a simple point, I definately concede, that it does seem to indicate a womans head should be covered. Elaborating though, does it indicate a man should be shorn?


And just to throw in a spanner, any ideas what the following means

10For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head, because of the angels.

What does the 'because of the angels' line mean?

Medina

I assume you've taken that from the KJV of the Bible?

In the International version here is the verse in context:

7A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.

Thats quite a difference ...power/authority

and no idea what it means as earlier a womans hair was referred to as her 'glory'...and here as a 'sign of authority'. If indeed the sign of authority is her hair or or hair-covering....

well if i was to guess..i'd say her hair-covering is a sign of the man's or God's authority on her....still no idea where the angels come into it though

or else in reference to power..maybe what is meant is obedience...

depending on the translation you choose to follow you could have two very different hermeneutics (>>Did i use it right Brian? )

PDN

Medina wrote:

still no idea where the angels come into it though

It may well be a reference to Isaiah Chapter 6. There we see that the seraphs who surrounded the throne of God covered their faces and feet because of the majesty of God's presence. Paul may be saying, "If the angels do this, then how much more should you."

JimiTime

PDN wrote:

It may well be a reference to Isaiah Chapter 6. There we see that the seraphs who surrounded the throne of God covered their faces and feet because of the majesty of God's presence. Paul may be saying, "If the angels do this, then how much more should you."

Now there's insight!:) Thanks PDN.

neuro-praxis

I don't have the time, energy or inclincation to deal in depth with all of these so I will go with the easiest one.

Medina wrote:

Genesis 3:16
To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."

This is a curse, not an order. It is written in the indicative, not the imperative. What this means is that God is outlining what is going to happen, not what women ought to do.

I think thousands of years of patriarchal rule confirm that God's predictions were true.

Thankfully we had Jesus come and upend this system and treated women with unparallelled respect (as did, Paul actually).

JimiTime

neuro-praxis wrote:

I don't have the time, energy or inclincation to deal in depth with all of these so I will go with the easiest one.



This is a curse, not an order. It is written in the indicative, not the imperative. What this means is that God is outlining what is going to happen, not what women ought to do.

I think thousands of years of patriarchal rule confirm that God's predictions were true.

Thankfully we had Jesus come and upend this system and treated women with unparallelled respect (as did, Paul actually).

I think thats the bit that gets contentious is man being over woman. Thus Paul saying that a woman must cover her head in prayer as a sign of mans authority over her. In todays christian society, I'd have to say, this is not really dealt with. Would anyone know why most christian women in western society don't cover their heads in prayer? Until this thread I wasn't even aware of the instruction, but in reading the corinthians account, I don't see a way round it. Any thoughts?

robindch

JimiTime wrote:

Would anyone know why most christian women in western society don't cover their heads in prayer? Until this thread I wasn't even aware of the instruction [...]

See this previous post:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=53411872&postcount=4

JimiTime wrote:

...but in reading the corinthians account, I don't see a way round it. Any thoughts?

But if somebody believes that it's an straightforward rule, then is it reasonable to seek a way around it in the first place? Surely the point of a simple, unalterable and infallible rule is that it should be followed without asking questions or trying to get around it?