MNSCI (& other) club fees?

Kramer

I didn't want to hijack the other thread but was shocked to learn of MNSCI's "new member fee" of €550 :eek: .

Last I heard it was €400 for new members & €250 p/a thereafter. That seemed fair enough.
Now, it would seem, it's €550 for new members & €265 thereafter.
So how come the annual fee increased by just 6% while the new member fee has increased by 37.5%?

Can anyone explain why it's now so expensive for new members? Surely they should keep the "joining" fee lower to encourage membership.............or am I waaaay off the mark:D ? What does a new member get above an existing member? Heaps of administration involved? Comprehensive safety training provided?
It looks more like a deterrent to me, maybe they now have enough members?

I haven't joined as, given it's a 4+ hour return journey & limited opening, I'd be lucky to get there once a month. €400/12 was €33 per visit + €35 approx. for fuel.
At €550, I'd be spending the bones of €80 per session (+ ammo) :eek: .

I know they are doing a 1000yrd range but why make new members pay sooooooo much more? Do they not realise (or care) just how far some people have to travel to get to their range? Obviously, locals get great value for their fees but those unable to get there regularly just won't bother, especially at €550!

CG, any news on your range yet?

Thankfully, there are plenty of ranges available locally which are totally free........................sometimes, even the odd rabbit or fox too .

It just pisses me off having put so much time/effort into fighting the license fee increase(s), especially the training licence, that one of the biggest clubs should now hammer new membership.
Not good for the sport IMO.

[End rant]

Vegeta

tell me about it, I handed it over last week.

When I think that for that money I would be a third of the way to a Nightforce scope or nearly bought Vinnwiew's leupold. Would have gone a bloody foreign holiday and had change left over. Its mad money alright

jaycee

I consider it fair value for money when I think what it might cost to join a decent Gym , and if you compare it to the cost of joining a Golf club , it's peanuts .

Theres a lot of work to be done on the range , and a heck of a lot has been done over the last few years. Existing members have paid for the facilitys as they stand at present. New members are benefiting from the work and financial contributions of the existing members .

The place isn't in receipt of public funds so anything that has been done or needs to be done must be paid for. The backstops , buildings , firing points and clubhouse didn't appear by magic, but by hard work and dedication.

I manage to shoot there about once a week , sometimes more often , but lets say 52 times a year , as an existing member that's 265 divided by 52 which nets out at about a fiver . I don't count the fuel or the ammo cause that really isn't connected to the membership fee , just a fact of life.
In any event , my ammunition costs are far higher than my membership cost.

It's unfortunate that you would incur such high travel costs and that the distance involved limits you to just 12 visits a year. I can see your point that it doesn't make economic sense in your case.If you really feel that strongly about the cost of joining , perhaps you shouldn't.

freddieot

Midlands is not perfect (someone still has to open a club that is perfect) and the membership costs are high. However, you do get what you pay for in this case. I've shot there for years and seen it grow and the rifle facilities are easily the best civilian setup in the country. Work on the new pistol range and facilities is still ongoing but already is one of the best and when finished will be the best.

It is still the only place on this island where as a member you can go to shoot your pistol, shotgun and rifle (50m to 600yds) , all in the same day and without really waiting about for another discipline to finish.

When backstops need repair or to be raised, when targets need replacing, when facilities need updating and improving like the new clubhouse - money is spent and the guys put in a great deal of hard work.

I also have to drive a fair distance but that's the luck of the draw. I've heard lots of talk over the years about new clubs opening up nearer to me promising everything from state of the art pistol ranges to 1,000+ rifle facilities. I'm still waiting for it actually to happen, but eventually I will accept that more good clubs will open up. I wonder how much they will cost if they are to be run to the same high standards ? Let's wait and see. Midlands have recently spent thousands just improving the pistol range backstop and progressing the new pistol clubhouse. I'm happy my membership fee this year will be spent wisely in order to ensure that I can continue to use the facilities.

Like I said Midlands is not perfect in every respect but in particular for shooters with different types of forearms and disciplines, as a total range solution, it is good value.

bullets

Yeah I was shocked when Vegeta told me what he had to pay
for the first time. I am currently waiting on a letter from midlands
to let me know when to give em the top-up to renew my membership.

I paid 470-480 initial fees at the start of this year.
as a once off fee I was initially shocked but was happy to pay it as a once off. I was stunned that the facilities were so good and wondered how they could manage to pay for the place.

I still have not got a membership card as the dude that made them messed up
and midlands ended up getting their own equipment in.

In fairness the range/setup is non-profit and all moneys go towards developing/maintaining the place. and It has one of the best set-ups in the Country. Satillite TV/Pool Table/Kitchen-ish type section/beer tap/Library???/can buy ammo and rests/patches/solvents/rangefinders at the range/plenty of distances to choose from and the availability to hire club equipment. From a safety end of things I can say that the backstops are
higher and thicker than anything I have ever seen on a military Irish range
so thats a big plus in my books.

I only get there maybe twice a month with a lad from work giving me
a lift whenever he is going up. After finding out Vegeta works in the same
company as myself and himself being good enough to give me a lift from
time to time it means I get to go there a in a nice balanced way
where it wont P*ss the girlfriend off if I am away too much.

If your into Range shooting in a big way I reckon the price hikes while maybe
not pleasent would be acceptable. If your into things other than paper punching or clays then it may be bit expensive JUST to be a member.

~B

bunny shooter

I am a member of midland for about four years now.

I've paid about plus or minus €800 over that period.......

I have seen the place improve and change ........ generally for the better.

I have 2 x pistols.....if i wasn't a member there i wouldn't have gotten the licences

New members membership is high but it is the way below the cost of most golf clubs....

And you won't get into many 'good' golf clubs for €550 !!!!!! even after the first year.

A lot of people including people i know only join to get a pistol licence and/or fullbore rifle licence/s ............. and they never go to the range .........I say hike up the new membership x 3 times to deter this carry on.


don't usually rant but come on........................

bullets

bunny shooter wrote:

A lot of people including people i know only join to get a pistol licence

One of the reasons pointed out to me as to who they wish to let
into the club....... All too often someone wants to join a range
ONLY to allow them to get a licennce for a Pistol.

From talkiing to the lads on the range they say its a big problem.
Peeps joining just to get a "handgun" when questions are asked about
the reasons for joining and wanting a handgun a lot of the answers are scarey
such and a non-Irish person joining thinking they can licence for pistol for personal protection or to sleep with one under the pillow. All it takes is for one nut-job
to make it to the press/media to give us all and the local club a bad name.

~B

rrpc

bunny shooter wrote:

New members membership is high but it is the way below the cost of most golf clubs....

And you won't get into many 'good' golf clubs for €550 !!!!!! even after the first year.

A lot of people including people i know only join to get a pistol licence and/or fullbore rifle licence/s ............. and they never go to the range .........I say hike up the new membership x 3 times to deter this carry on.

Oh, there will be other things that will catch up with such members, though I understand that part of the hike is to discourage this kind of thing.

The 2006 firearms act has stipulated that lapsed members be reported to the Gardai by the clubs concerned, so that licences can be revoked. Authorisations are now requiring that member attendances be available for inspection by the Gardai.

That will put a stop to chequebook pistol licences.

As for the cost of joining, it's a bit unfair calling the entire €550 a joining fee, in fact it's a joining fee plus first annual sub. This is normal in all clubs, and is supposed to reflect the kind of money that founding members put into the establishment of the club out of their own pockets.

Remember that the money goes directly into the facilities that you enjoy, and in improvements. Any club that doesn't spend money this way, isn't going to last very long.

How many other things that you pay for provide the same kind of value, or transparency as to where it is going?

bunny shooter

rrpc,

all very well to be in the legislation...........

But it has been there all along.............

on the cert renewal...........declaration of membership etc...........

local gun club have notified gardai of lapsed members for years.........they still get their licences!!!!!!!!!

550 - 265 = 285 of a "joining fee"..........cheap at twice the cost

rrpc

bunny shooter wrote:

rrpc,

all very well to be in the legislation...........

But it has been there all along.............

on the cert renewal...........declaration of membership etc...........

local gun club have notified gardai of lapsed members for years.........they still get their licences!!!!!!!!!

550 - 265 = 285 of a "joining fee"..........cheap at twice the cost

But there was no law to actually back up that stipulation. It's only now that there is a requirement to be a member of a target shooting club to get a pistol licence that has changed this.

You can bet your last euro that the Gardai will be calling at peoples doors if they get such letters in the future.

And I agree, for a club of Midlands standards you get very good value for your fee. Most clubs charge the same, and I know quite a few that are much more expensive and some of them are closed to new members at the moment.

People have to bear in mind that club authorisations set membership limits on clubs, so it may well be the case that Midlands are getting close to theirs and have cranked up the fee accordingly.

bunny shooter

must admit haven't been to any other civy ranges. fermoy is supposed to be good but only for .22 ?

bullets

bunny shooter wrote:

must admit haven't been to any other civy ranges. fermoy is supposed to be good but only for .22 ?

Yeah Fermoy when I enquired last would only allow .22 and subsonic.
Dunno what their rules are with regards to Pistol.

~B

jaycee

People have to bear in mind that club authorisations set membership limits on clubs, so it may well be the case that Midlands are getting close to theirs and have cranked up the fee accordingly.

Absolutely true with regard to the membership limits imposed in the club authorisation . I don't know if this is a factor in the fee increase , but costs are rising everywhere and I suspect that insurance and safety related costs are increasing too.

Someone mentioned the fact that there are some places where rifle shooting may be carried out for free , and while this is true to some extent if one has the permission to shoot on someones land (You still need insurance which is included in the membership fee) If you want to take part in target shooting in a club , I don't know of any club with free membership .

Free club membership is also highly unlikely as under current legislation a registered club is liable for a 1000 euro fee . Add to that the costs involved in getting the safety standards in place to merit a range authorisation.

If you got 50 people together , count the cost of leasing land , building backstops , building firing points, paying for materials and hiring heavy equipment and operators to put it in place .... It would be far far cheaper for them each to pay a membership of €5000... yes five thousand euros to a club and just enjoy the facilities on offer ...

If you enjoy your sport and are committed to it and have an appreciation of the work done with you membership dues .. then €265 looks very small.
Anyone who cannot contemplate such a small level of personal investment , (and that is surely a better phrase.... "personal investment")....., in their sport really should seek another hobby.

Kramer

jaycee wrote:

If you enjoy your sport and are committed to it and have an appreciation of the work done with you membership dues .. then €265 looks very small.

100% agree. I have no problem with the annual fee & €265 is indeed very reasonable for the facilities available at MNSCI. €285 I'd have no problem. €300, I'd have no problem.

jaycee wrote:

Anyone who cannot contemplate such a small level of personal investment , (and that is surely a better phrase.... "personal investment")....., in their sport really should seek another hobby.

Obviously a personal dig but leaving that aside :

My question was why such a big increase in the "joining fee"? Two reasons have been given: (a) to prevent those joining just for licence purposes, especially pistol licences & (b) because (possibly), they are nearing their member quota.

(a) solution is easy enough.
(b) not so easy. Compulsary redundancy of existing members?

Does anyone actually see my point? Increasing the initial joining fee is going to deter new membership. If that's the intention, then fair enough. I'm not referring to those airheads solely after pistols but young interested individuals. EVERY sport needs an injection of youth to keep it going & indeed progress it, shooting more than any other IMO. Dublin is reasonably well served with clubs/universities for young shooters but the rest of the country isn't so lucky.

What's also interesting is those justifying the fees are already members & not subject to the new member increase. Some, also, are local to the club & get to visit with great regularity . Typical enough in Ireland though: "I'm alright Jack" & all that .

Someone mentioned that the initial fee also includes the first year's membership. Well, that was also the case when it was €400. Actually, doing the maths, the joining fee has increased to €285 from €150, or 90% :eek: .

I dunno, maybe it's just me but I think large increases in joining fees aren't the way to go to facilitate the entrance of young blood into a sport that needs it.

On a side note, I've realised that if I wait long enough, I can actually shoot two rabbits with just one bullet, thereby saving 30c. Just wait till they line up "nose to tail". It can take a while (up to four hours from experience) but a penny saved is a penny earned & all that. Look after the pennies & the pounds will look after themselves lads .

jaycee

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
Anyone who cannot contemplate such a small level of personal investment , (and that is surely a better phrase.... "personal investment")....., in their sport really should seek another hobby.

Obviously a personal dig but leaving that aside :

Just to clarify... :

That wasn't a personal dig at anyone , just an opinion, but I am puzzled because you seem to feel so strongly about the increases yet have no intention of joining .

The figures you presented re your personal costings are based on last years membership fee and sub. This year they are predictably increased so it's even more of a financial obstacle , so presumably if they were too high last year , then this year is out of the question . That being the case I don't see the point of further discussion as it obviously won't effect you anyway.

The irony is , that if you had joined last year ... you would be looking at a fee of a mere €265 ..this year.

My question was why such a big increase in the "joining fee"? Two reasons have been given: (a) to prevent those joining just for licence purposes, especially pistol licences & (b) because (possibly), they are nearing their member quota.

Actually there have been more than two reasons given... in addition to the ones quoted above ..people have pointed out the following...

a: Rising costs generally ..a fact of life
b: Insurance and safety upgrades .
c: New work that has been carried out on the range
d: Planned improvements
e: New fees that have been imposed by the finance act.
f: Increases in the "Sub" that reflect the additional facilities on offer.

On the subject of introducing young shooters and training them , once they are of legal age to do so .. for a small fee they can come and learn to shoot under supervision with one of the club .22 rifles . They don't need to be members to do that or even own a gun.
The only restriction is that they can't shoot full bore rifles without membership , but then , if they are just starting out they usually wouldn't have one. They do have the opportunity to learn from more experienced members about the different types of shooting and what the requirements are. I think thats a fair start into the sport of shooting..


None of the above is intended as a personal "Dig" merely answers to questions and should be taken as such .. It is unfortunate if you feel that you can't justify or afford the fees .. but then again there are many things in life that I would like to do ... world cruises , powerboat racing .... etc .. I just can't afford them , such is life.

Clare gunner

There is one other thing no one has considerd here ...monopoly and profit!

Lets face it.Midlands is the ONLY range[yet] for most of us west of the Shannon and the Limerick ,Clare,Nth Tipp reigons,that is more or less within a three hour ,200 mile round trip for a decent range or club that allows you to use your pistol,or big calibre stuff.
Hate to say it ,but that is a monoply situation!!And it is a situation that midland could use to their advantage.Not insuniating that they do ,but looking at this a from a busisness perspective,and surely also a club must be run as such to make a profit as well.It is a situation MANY busisness people would give their left eyes for.
So,whats to stop them upping the annual fees up to 900 quid next year,1200,the year after? Absolutely Nothing! Havent shown up on the range for a year..ah you must be a potential nutter...so we are telling the Gaurds on you! Unless you fork up again another membership of 900 Euros,or whatever.
[That alone would turn me off joining].
Checkbook liscenses how are ya!
Folks,please understand..I have no grudge with midland,and wish them well.But I feel I have to point out the possible lack of clothing on the emperor here.
This is only going to change as more ranges get opened.But there is the rub,where,when ,by whom??? It is a Catch 22 situation.

Bullets
BTW our foreign guests wouldnt need to join clubs to aquire firearms here.It is easier and cheaper for them to aquire somthing in their home countries and bring it back here in a car if they so needed it.It is only us poor mugs that are doing this the ligit way that are being told to bend over:mad: From the Govt,Gardai and possibly our own.
Kramer
Workin on it.I have to get that guy out with all his junk in a diplomatic fashion,otherwise he can claim traders rights etc.Once I have that barn empty...we start the paperwork pretty soon as well.

bunny shooter

jaycee,

bravo !

bunny shooter

Another bonus of membership is ........ 90% of the lads, and there are mostly lads there, not being sexist, all the women I know who shoot are better shots than me and most men too, are genuine, decent guys. I have seen new shooters come to the range. If they look for help and/or advice it is freely given in a non condescending fashion (we were all there once !!!!), nothing is too much trouble, there is never a bad time, lads will give up their shooting time to help others etc. Whether explaining/demonstrating something, advice, etc. If someone want to see if a rifle, scope, ammo etc. suits them and/or their combo, you are given a couple of shots or given a few rounds etc. COMRADARIE IS THERE TOO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And that is lacking in most sports/places in this materialistic world nowadays !!!!!!!!!!!!! What price can you put on this ? I have made some great friends there and I know that if I need help someone there will know the answer ! I have had lads help me with problems stripping parts on rifles e.g. firing pins etc. I have helped and been helped ! Very few (and only the stupid) are too proud to ask for help and fewer there are too selfish to give it !!!!!!

Vegeta

Hey don't get me wrong i love the facilities but whatever way you look at it 550 euro is not chump change. To some this can be justified, to others it cannot.

The only fault I have with the place is that I don't live closer or there isn't a similar set-up in Clare/Limerick. Hardly their fault now is it

I do side with Kramer on this though. I am a young stupid professional (who lives with my parents might i add) spending lots of money on my hobby. Lord knows if i was a student or had a mortage and young family that sort of price would be out of the question on my current salary.

bunny shooter

vegeta,


c'est la vie !

Vegeta

if I win the euro millions lads i'll build a super range and you are all honorary members

newby.204

thanks veg

bunny shooter

Vegeta wrote:

if I win the euro millions lads i'll build a super range and you are all honorary members

we will hold you to that !:D

bunny shooter

'Newby .204' where did name come from ?

rrpc

Kramer wrote:

Someone mentioned that the initial fee also includes the first year's membership. Well, that was also the case when it was €400. Actually, doing the maths, the joining fee has increased to €285 from €150, or 90% :eek: .

Presumably the membership fee was also lower when the €400 was being asked. So you are attributing the entire hike to the joining fee.

rrpc

Clare gunner wrote:

There is one other thing no one has considerd here ...monopoly and profit!

Lets face it.Midlands is the ONLY range[yet] for most of us west of the Shannon and the Limerick ,Clare,Nth Tipp reigons,that is more or less within a three hour ,200 mile round trip for a decent range or club that allows you to use your pistol,or big calibre stuff.
Hate to say it ,but that is a monoply situation!! And it is a situation that midland could use to their advantage.....So,whats to stop them upping the annual fees up to 900 quid next year,1200,the year after?...

Thats a stupid proposition because no-one would join if the price went that high, and the club would close. Or someone would get off their ass and actually open another range if there was that kind of money to be made.

And it's not a monopoly because there are many other ranges in the country and most of them charge about the same amount.

Bottom line. If you had 50 members, you'd be earning just €13250 at €265 annual sub. Joining fees are once off, so you would have a windfall of about fourteen grand in the first year.

So with €27000 in your pocket, how good a range do you think you could build?

Clare Gunner wrote:

Not insuniating that they do ,but looking at this a from a busisness perspective,and surely also a club must be run as such to make a profit as well.It is a situation MANY busisness people would give their left eyes for.

Clubs only make profits in order to invest in their facilities.

Clare Gunner wrote:

Havent shown up on the range for a year..ah you must be a potential nutter...so we are telling the Gaurds on you! Unless you fork up again another membership of 900 Euros,or whatever.

That's irresponsible talk CG. If someone joins a club for the sole purposes of getting a licence, then they should be turfed out immediately. There should be no equivocation here, it's not about nutters, it's about us being in control of our sport and making sure that the 100% accident free record is kept.

And it's the law!

Clare Gunner wrote:

This is only going to change as more ranges get opened.But there is the rub,where,when ,by whom??? It is a Catch 22 situation.

It's not a Catch 22, anyone can start a club, there's nothing stopping them but inertia.

bullets

Someone mentioned in passing that the range in Mallow was over 400 Euro
to Join and whoever was running the place was looking for that EVERY YEAR.
Anyone know if thats all lies and bull or is there any truth in the matter.

Was at Midlands today with Vegeta and another workmate.
Veg seems happy out with .223 at 300m although it was
difficult to see where the shots landed at that range and also
the heat mirage was severe.

I mounted and zerored my new Leupold VXIII 6.5-20 Long Range
lovely bit of kit but did not improve my accuracy as I shot pure
Poo today. It was a joy to look through though.

Keep seeing two guys that shoot 22LR with the Olympic style
kit. Jackets and stuff. Wondering if they are board members as one lad
keeps looking at me as if he knows me but I dont know him!
If ye know who ye are next time we must make introductions

Heard today Midlands is expanding their Club house.
Also there are plans for a Club full bore rifle! Yummy!
and a Military display in Sept sometime.

~B

rrpc

bullets wrote:

Keep seeing two guys that shoot 22LR with the Olympic style
kit. Jackets and stuff. Wondering if they are board members as one lad
keeps looking at me as if he knows me but I dont know him!
If ye know who ye are next time we must make introductions
~B

We'll be all down there on the 23rd/24th for the National Championships, so you can introduce yourself then. I don't know who the lads were, but I'm sure all will be revealed

I'll be the one running around connecting computers and cables and generally looking harrassed

jaycee

Originally Posted by Clare Gunner
Havent shown up on the range for a year..ah you must be a potential nutter...so we are telling the Gaurds on you! Unless you fork up again another membership of 900 Euros,or whatever

Sounds like a scheme with a great potential for a form of blackmail doesn't it ..?
Except that if you examine the facts it falls apart.

a: It would be far more logical for a club trying to do that , to be happy to just take the members money and hope to never see them. To suggest that they would be reported for non attendance kinda contradicts that.

b: A club will in fact be required to keep records of attendance which can and will be inspected at any time. It will be the Gardaí who be keeping tabs and come calling on those seeking to use club membership as a flag of convenience

c: I don't have a problem with that system if it keeps the nutters in check.

Clare gunner

[

QUOTE=rrpc]Thats a stupid proposition because no-one would join if the price went that high, and the club would close. Or someone would get off their ass and actually open another range if there was that kind of money to be made.

Reallly???? Whats the choice around the areas that I have mentioned??It's an either /or situation.And it is pretty facetious to say that anyone can open a club.You know as well as I do it is only possible with specific areas,mindsets,blessings of the Gardai ,planning permission as well.

And it's not a monopoly because there are many other ranges in the country and most of them charge about the same amount.

Yes in the Dublin/East coast area.Kerry is full and Mallow I dunno what they are charging.You are still stuck INMHO opinion with a hobinsons choice.
And I am saying it is a monopoly,I am saying it is a potential local monopoly

So with €27000 in your pocket, how good a range do you think you could build?

Excluding purchasing /leasing the property /buildings,and you are talking about with being able to set somthing up.Ok not a beautiful grand set up ,but somthing that will get shooting going.

Clubs only make profits in order to invest in their facilities

.
Sorry. I'll take THAT with a very large pinch of salt,if you dont mind. It's coming to a point that people are expecting to get paid for their time these days,and lets not forget the costs of insurance is starting to override most everything we do nowadays.Call me cynical,but I dont belive much more in Human altuism

That's irresponsible talk CG. If someone joins a club for the sole purposes of getting a licence, then they should be turfed out immediately. There should be no equivocation here, it's not about nutters, it's about us being in control of our sport and making sure that the 100% accident free record is kept

.

No it is realistic.There is NO SUCH THING AS A 100% saftey record in anything mankind does.Be it shooting or nuke power plants.
So we are now making a dictatorial decision that if you dont show up every week,month,two months,six months ,year .You are now up to somthing no good??? Sorry, but I just cant accept that there isnt somwhere the usual Irish slant on things of somone somwhere trying to make a quick buck on the backs of his fellow irish men


May I remind everyone Mr Hamilton was a model club member,before he went off to Dunblane primary school.If you think that just everyone showing up is gong to sort the illegal firearms issue,you are mistaken. It is now easier for nutters/criminals to aquire illegal firearms than going the legal route.

And it's the law!

As of when and where??Please quote the revelant act of current law that says you must be a club member.??

It's not a Catch 22, anyone can start a club, there's nothing stopping them but inertia.

See my above reply

Jaycee
a] it could be done like the "late " car tax renewal.You get a letter from your tax office saying that if you dont renew the car tax within 14 days .We inform the Gaurds.One of my cars hasnt had tax for 6 months now,and the Gaurds still havent been down to see me.
There is alot of "law"out there it is for the Gardai to enforce it.if they have the time or inclination anymore.Unless somthing drastic occurs ,they wont be too intrested in checking range attendance books.How many timesare ammo dealer records checked?The Gaurds themselves admit it would be nice if politicos and the GP would consult them first about wether all this extra paperwork /tasking is chucked on them,and wether it is feasible to do.

b] What does this exactly prove???I go down to the club,fire ten rounds,drink a coke,BS with people for an hour ,go home.Repeat procedure,every month,week,whatever.
Gardai come down,see ah yeah CG has been in the club every stipulated time,grand so.Law obeyed,everyone happy.
Now if I am a chequebook liscense holder,you have me obeying the "law" and still nothing changes.
Now unless we are going to be totally anal about things and lay down EXACTLY what a member MUST do ven He atteds der range.How many rounds shot ,etc etc.Then you will be discouraging people from the shooting sports community and your club.We go shooting to chill out,not to be orderd around,or to achive a certain pre required goal.

jaycee

Jaycee
a] it could be done like the "late " car tax renewal.You get a letter from your tax office saying that if you dont renew the car tax within 14 days .We inform the Gaurds.One of my cars hasnt had tax for 6 months now,and the Gaurds still havent been down to see me.

Quite possibly .. but then again if you are driving it on the public road , you have to be "Lucky" every time to avoid detection , the Gardaí only need to be lucky once and since it's over 2 months without tax they have the power to confiscate it on the spot ... that theory also depends on the club being a party to helping one to avoid detection and using that power to force members to both attend and extort money from them.

I don't believe a reputable club would do that or put themselves and their reputation at risk by doing so . If you are suggesting that they would thats a pretty serious accusation .

There is alot of "law"out there it is for the Gardai to enforce it.if they have the time or inclination anymore.Unless somthing drastic occurs ,they wont be too intrested in checking range attendance books.How many timesare ammo dealer records checked?The Gaurds themselves admit it would be nice if politicos and the GP would consult them first about wether all this extra paperwork /tasking is chucked on them,and wether it is feasible to do.

b] What does this exactly prove???I go down to the club,fire ten rounds,drink a coke,BS with people for an hour ,go home.Repeat procedure,every month,week,whatever.
Gardai come down,see ah yeah CG has been in the club every stipulated time,grand so.Law obeyed,everyone happy.
Now if I am a chequebook liscense holder,you have me obeying the "law" and still nothing changes.

I agree that no system is without it's loopholes and cracks , but we didn't write the law , were just trying to operate within it and the new position of "range inspector" will have very few authorised ranges to police and you can bet they will be checking up on stuff.

Now unless we are going to be totally anal about things and lay down EXACTLY what a member MUST do ven He atteds der range.How many rounds shot ,etc etc.Then you will be discouraging people from the shooting sports community and your club.We go shooting to chill out,not to be orderd around,or to achive a certain pre required goal.

I don't think it's quite that bad , or ever will be.
CG , I respect your opinion as someone I would consider to be a "Safe " shooter , and I have no wish for unnecessary restrictions on our enjoyment of our sport anymore than you have. But you seem to think that these are rules imposed and dreamed up by the MNSCI ...they aren't.

May I remind everyone Mr Hamilton was a model club member,before he went off to Dunblane primary school

.

I cringe at the mention of that person and reluctantly refer to him in a discussion relating to our sport , but it is fair to point out that he had been reported to the Police for "Strange and threatening behavior" and nobody acted on it. The system broke down and we as sportsmen and women , not just in the MNSCI , but in shooting everywhere need to take whatever steps we can to have checks and balances in the system and work with the Gardaí
to ensure safety for all.

If you think that just everyone showing up is gong to sort the illegal firearms issue,you are mistaken. It is now easier for nutters/criminals to aquire illegal firearms than going the legal route.

I never set out to solve the illegal firearms issue , that's a matter for the Gardaí . I am only concerned with legally licensed shooters.
I don't think either the club rules or the law are beyond improvement and welcome suggestions from anyone , member or not , as to how systems and security can be improved .

For the moment , I think that if you meet a guy on the range fairly regularly and get to know him and talk to him , watch how he behaves , it gives you a far better chance of spotting a potential problem than a situation where "chequebook member" ..never turns up and nobody knows anything.
Isn't that at the heart of the idea of encouraging a minimum level of attendance ....?

If anyone has fresh ideas on how to ensure that everyone who ever gets a licence is 100% suitable above and beyond the checks that we trust the Gardaí are doing ... Let's hear them..

rrpc

Clare gunner wrote:

Reallly???? Whats the choice around the areas that I have mentioned??It's an either /or situation.And it is pretty facetious to say that anyone can open a club.You know as well as I do it is only possible with specific areas,mindsets,blessings of the Gardai ,planning permission as well.

All things that others have managed to do, and are still managing to do. But hey throw up your hands and say it's impossible if you like.

Clare Gunner wrote:

Yes in the Dublin/East coast area.Kerry is full and Mallow I dunno what they are charging.

And Fermoy.

Clare Gunner wrote:

Excluding purchasing /leasing the property /buildings,and you are talking about with being able to set somthing up.Ok not a beautiful grand set up ,but somthing that will get shooting going.

Now you're contradicting yourself.

Clare Gunner wrote:

Sorry. I'll take THAT with a very large pinch of salt,if you dont mind. It's coming to a point that people are expecting to get paid for their time these days,and lets not forget the costs of insurance is starting to override most everything we do nowadays.Call me cynical,but I dont belive much more in Human altuism

Believe what you want CG, I don't know any club that doesn't plough all it's income back into the sport. At the very least, anything else would require that taxes be paid and all the red tape that goes with a commercial venture.

Clare Gunner wrote:

No it is realistic.There is NO SUCH THING AS A 100% saftey record in anything mankind does.Be it shooting or nuke power plants.

Can't speak for power plants, but the safety record in target shooting is 100% since 1840.

Clare Gunner wrote:

So we are now making a dictatorial decision that if you dont show up every week,month,two months,six months ,year .You are now up to somthing no good??? Sorry, but I just cant accept that there isnt somwhere the usual Irish slant on things of somone somwhere trying to make a quick buck on the backs of his fellow irish men

As of when and where??Please quote the revelant act of current law that says you must be a club member.??

Firearms Act 2006 (7) Any person who holds a firearm certificate and who is found to no longer fulfil the conditions under section 4 (1)(d) or section 4(3) above shall be guilty of an offence.

Section 4 (1)
(d) has provided secure accommodation for the firearm concerned at the
address where it is to be kept, and
(e) where the firearm is to be used for target shooting, is a member of an
authorised rifle and pistol club."

You don't show up, you're guilty of an offence. It's nothing to do with 'making a quick buck'.

And furthermore:

Any member of An Garda Síochána authorised in that behalf by the
Commissioner, or a person designated in that behalf by the Commissioner, may on producing his authority if required to do so - enter any premises occupied or used by a rifle or pistol club or rifle and pistol shooting range; and inspect the premises and anything on them, for the purpose of ascertaining whether the conditions of any authorisation granted under subsection (2) are being complied with.

Clare gunner

that theory also depends on the club being a party to helping one to avoid detection and using that power to force members to both attend and extort money from them.

And what sort of a better situation could you ask for?You MUST attend[what you do while attending is irrevelant to us],and you MU&ST pay us as there is no other club within 200 miles for you to fulfil your lawful obligations.
sounds good to me:rolleyes:

I don't believe a reputable club would do that or put themselves and their reputation at risk by doing so . If you are suggesting that they would thats a pretty serious accusation .

I'm suggesting it is a possibility.And reputability means nothing if somone wants to make profit.

I agree that no system is without it's loopholes and cracks , but we didn't write the law , were just trying to operate within it and the new position of "range inspector" will have very few authorised ranges to police and you can bet they will be checking up on stuff.

Again another "law" without any means of backing it up ..yet.:rolleyes:
Until this is actually enforced or enforceable,it is just so much air.And again lets face it ,it is the same as the office of smoke inspector.They all went around the pubs,all complying with no smoking bans.After the strangers are gone,out come the water glasses filled with water for the known locals,and those that do light up.After closing time!!What I am saying is;just because a law exists,it doesnt mean that everyone is obeying it in the letter and spirt,we make a pretence that it is obeyed in everyday life and continue as before,because we know that it is stupid,unenforceable,etc etc.

But you seem to think that these are rules imposed and dreamed up by the MNSCI ...they aren't.

I dont, and I am not accusing MNSCI of anything.I am stating that if there is a single club in a large catchment area that it is unecnomical for a shooter to travel over 200 miles to go somwhere else,if they could get into the other clubs that is.And you have to fulfil these conditions of ownership,and a club knows this,you are pretty much at that clubs mercy wouldnt you say???
That is called a monopoly situation.

.

I cringe at the mention of that person and reluctantly refer to him in a discussion relating to our sport , but it is fair to point out that he had been reported to the Police for "Strange and threatening behavior" and nobody acted on it. The system broke down and we as sportsmen and women , not just in the MNSCI , but in shooting everywhere need to take whatever steps we can to have checks and balances in the system and work with the Gardaí
to ensure safety for all.

You said a mouthful there.And I agrre with you 100%.BUT what happens if those that are higher up fail to act???It is totally irrevelant then what checks and balances are in place as then we get scape goated collectively.Did many police officers resign after Dunblane and say they screwed up??One I think?

For the moment , I think that if you meet a guy on the range fairly regularly and get to know him and talk to him , watch how he behaves , it gives you a far better chance of spotting a potential problem than a situation where "chequebook member" ..never turns up and nobody knows anything.
Isn't that at the heart of the idea of encouraging a minimum level of attendance ....?

Do you REALLY get to know anyone in this life that well,until you are up close and personal with them?Street angel and house divil saying springs to mind.
You can have the nicest face on in the club,be the greatest salt of the earth,and be a compleate B%%%%rd back home in private. It happens.

If anyone has fresh ideas on how to ensure that everyone who ever gets a licence is 100% suitable above and beyond the checks that we trust the Gardaí are doing ... Let's hear them..

you cant grauntee a 100% in anything.But to belive that if somone shows up regularly at a range,and does all the prescribed niceities,that you will spot a problem on legs,well maybe if you have a trained psycologist as a member of the club, fine.The system is fine enough as it is,adding on more silly IMO restrictions wont improve it at all.

Clare gunner

[

QUOTE=rrpc]All things that others have managed to do, and are still managing to do. But hey throw up your hands and say it's impossible if you like.

Well RRPC if you can speed this up for me within 6/12 months ,[if this is what you are implying] .I'm hiring you!.If you think that this can be done really easy and quick this whole discussion will be academic as there will be a range near enough in every 3rd parish.:rolleyes:

How am I contradicting myself??

Believe what you want CG, I don't know any club that doesn't plough all it's income back into the sport.

I could name you three of them,I was involved in [not shooting] that were there to make money,and to Hell with members.:(

At the very least, anything else would require that taxes be paid and all the red tape that goes with a commercial venture.

Which is somthing I would rather see,a commerical range,run on busisness lines as a busisness.It is then in the busisness intrest to attract customers,and therefore you will see better if not exellent facilities.

Can't speak for power plants, but the safety record in target shooting is 100% since 1840.

I was talking about shooting in general,not picking a specific branch.

You don't show up, you're guilty of an offence. It's nothing to do with 'making a quick buck'.

And I would like to see a Super making a case stick on it.It is so generalised that it is useless. It says NOTHING about attendance!!! It says membership of a authorised rifle and pistol club. Nothing about for how many days per year,month or whatever.Or what you must do when you show up or anything,or wether you must even shoot!! You could walk in once a week,month whatever, sign in have a cup of coffee,walk out.Condition in the laws eyes fulfilled.End of story!!

And???
He can inspect away.You fullfilled your side of the contract by being a member of the club!Wether you availed of the clubs facilities is as that law is written is irrevelant!

This brings me back to the point that you wont get rid of the chequebook member.This is a common situation all over Europe as well.Germans have it all the time,everyone did their 6mth probie time,did the course for their sport liscense,is a club member,pays their dues every year,not seen from one end of the year to the next.Can they do anything about it ??No!Only difference is;the German police dont worry or want to be seen prying into individuals lives as to how many times somone went shooting.As far as the laws is concerned you fulfilled the requirements to own firearms,all else is your beer.
Granted,being part of a club is our requirement...But our law does not specify what you must do further,or how many times you must attend or what not.Anything that a club does further like saying a minimum attendance is required is illegal and leaving them open to a lawsuit from a member,or reporting that person to the Gardai for non attendance is outside the club remit.


This is where the attendance thing looks stupid,and to my eyes as a money spinner for the club,combined as a big stick.You dont attend regularly,are a bit reserved,dont want to progress further in grades etc.All things where a club can make more bobs from the members./Therefore the club can brand you undesireable and get more money out of you by saying "Do this,attend more...or we will sic the Gardai on you"

Look,I am not saying that this is the way things are or will be or whatever.But all I am pointing out is that such a situation could develop,and realistically we are NOT going to have a huge amount of ranges in Ireland where we are all going to be able to pick and chose where we go,with a realistic travel distance.Knowing human nature,and the chance to make money from their brethern ,especially here,I wouldnt belive it wont or cant happen.Or that because somone doesnt fit the normal pattern of the other club charlies that an innocent is branded and deprived of their liscense,because of jumping to conclusions by the mis informed.

rrpc

Clare gunner wrote:

How am I contradicting myself??

By saying on the one hand..

And it is pretty facetious to say that anyone can open a club.You know as well as I do it is only possible with specific areas,mindsets,blessings of the Gardai ,planning permission as well.

And on the other

Excluding purchasing /leasing the property /buildings,and you are talking about with being able to set somthing up.Ok not a beautiful grand set up ,but somthing that will get shooting going.

I could name you three of them,I was involved in [not shooting] that were there to make money,and to Hell with members.

Not shooting.......

Which is somthing I would rather see,a commerical range,run on busisness lines as a busisness.It is then in the busisness intrest to attract customers,and therefore you will see better if not exellent facilities.

And something I'd prefer not to see. Because the end result is a complete dictatorship with everyone kow-towing to one individual, and having to take their way or the highway. A club is democratic, everyone can have their say.

Another contradiction by the way, because if the original point of this thread was a complaint about MNSCI's fees, and it's accepted that everything goes back into it's facilities, then a business venture's primary motive would be to make money first and worry about facilities second. Accepted by the way that a certain minimum standard would be required to make it a going concern, but there's no incentive to add facilities if the cost/benefit didn't work out.

If MNSCI was a profit making organisation, then there would be no full-bore range because of the cost involved for a very small population of shooters.

Clare Gunner wrote:

I was talking about shooting in general,not picking a specific branch.

And in general the accident record for shooting is well down on any other sport that's run in this country. (Bar tiddly-winks).

Clare Gunner wrote:

And I would like to see a Super making a case stick on it.It is so generalised that it is useless. It says NOTHING about attendance!!! It says membership of a authorised rifle and pistol club.

And have you read the authorisations?
They require that all attendance records be available for the Gardai to inspect. They also require that the membership list be sent to them annually. Do you really think that they are going to just file them in a drawer without checking them?

Clare Gunner wrote:

And???
He can inspect away.You fullfilled your side of the contract by being a member of the club!Wether you availed of the clubs facilities is as that law is written is irrevelant!

It's not irrelevant. If you acquired the licence for a firearm by virtue of being a member of a target shooting club, and for the purposes of target-shooting, and haven't used it for that purpose, then you no longer have fulfilled the requiremnets for your licence. End of.

Clare Gunner wrote:

]Granted,being part of a club is our requirement...But our law does not specify what you must do further,or how many times you must attend or what not.Anything that a club does further like saying a minimum attendance is required is illegal

How is it illegal for a club to specify minimum attendance? Point me to the law that says that.

Clare Gunner wrote:

This is where the attendance thing looks stupid,and to my eyes as a money spinner for the club,combined as a big stick.You dont attend regularly,are a bit reserved,dont want to progress further in grades etc.All things where a club can make more bobs from the members.

And what's wrong with that? You really have it in for clubs CG, because I can't see what's wrong with a club trying to make money in order to improve it's facilities. A club is run for the members benefit, if all the members pull together to get facilities, and then see people signing up and not putting their shoulder to the wheel to improve things, well no club wants members like that.

Whats the point of them joining?

It appears CG, that you have a bee in your bonnet about clubs. You seem to think that a commercial range is a good thing because it makes money and a club is a bad thing because it might want to make money.

Square that circle for me.

Clare gunner

rrpc wrote:

By saying on the one hand.. And on the other

How is that a contradiction ??You are saying it is a piece of p%%s to open a club.Then you give us a figure of 27K to work with.I said BAR buying the property.27 K would get somthing pretty well basic ly set up.Of course if you are expecting steam rooms,leather chesterfield seats , cocktail bar etc.That is somthing different. Do you want to shoot in the dry on concerete with automatic returning target holders.With a pretty basic club house??Or squelch thru the mud,downing your pistol every five mins losing your concentration to retrive your paper,and have a lovely comfy clubhouse??

And something I'd prefer not to see. Because the end result is a complete dictatorship with everyone kow-towing to one individual, and having to take their way or the highway. A club is democratic, everyone can have their say.

Well I would..For the very simple reason that while clubs might seem democratic .You are forgetting the cabals,cliques and general human BS that is added into the matter. Plus there is a thing called majority say.
Plus I would bet you that if somone is running it as a busisness their intrest will be to get more people into using their facilities than playing at politics.Hey I want to shoot,when I want to ,not have to travel a stupid distance,and go home again,not get into club politics and camerderie and intrigues , etc. Been there done it,not impressed.Hence my reason for "having a bee in my bonnet" about clubs.

Another contradiction by the way, because if the original point of this thread was a complaint about MNSCI's fees, and it's accepted that everything goes back into it's facilities

,

And if thats a contradiction...???I am pointing out that MNSCI is in the uniuque position of having the possibility of running a monoply on a quite large area of Ireland.As would any club in the same situation,now or in the future.That is speculation.

then a business venture's primary motive would be to make money first and worry about facilities second. Accepted by the way that a certain minimum standard would be required to make it a going concern, but there's no incentive to add facilities if the cost/benefit didn't work out.

Errr NO! if you are running a busisness[at least in the rest of the world] you want people in your door to use your facilities and to not re invest money into your busisness is fool hardy and sure of a quick death.Why would you want to screw your customer,when he could go off and join a club somwhere else.You want them back,again again,and again.So you have to offer somthing better than your competition.IE better facilities,cheaper prices,the burrocratic BS kept to a minimum,near a pouplation centre,open most nights,etc etc.

If MNSCI was a profit making organisation, then there would be no full-bore range because of the cost involved for a very small population of shooters.

Didnt say they were,but the way the fees get hiked it would give a prospective newcomer the feeling that they were .

And in general the accident record for shooting is well down on any other sport that's run in this country. (Bar tiddly-winks).

Oh now its shooting in general???Last time it was target shooting! Agreed we do have a safe record overall .But you cant have a 100% saftey record in anything to do with human fallability.

And have you read the authorisations?
They require that all attendance records be available for the Gardai to inspect. They also require that the membership list be sent to them annually. Do you really think that they are going to just file them in a drawer without checking them?

Fine!And?? CG was six times of 12 months in the club.OK give him his liscense!
The law says he must be a member of a pistol club,he is a current member.Nothing else.
Hate to say it but yes,thats exactly what they will do on a check.Called lack of police manpower.They have to tick boxes as well.All yours correctly ticked...Fine...Next.

It's not irrelevant. If you acquired the licence for a firearm by virtue of being a member of a target shooting club, and for the purposes of target-shooting, and haven't used it for that purpose, then you no longer have fulfilled the requiremnets for your licence. End of.

Point out to me where the law says you must do anything other than be a member??The law says you must be a member.Nothing about training,useage,how often you must attend,how many shots you must fire,etc etc.?You come on the range once a week,month, whatever,fire 5 shots,go home.You still fulfill your lawful obligations.THE END.

How is it illegal for a club to specify minimum attendance? Point me to the law that says that.

Fact is you wont have many members or very happy ones either ,if you are forcing them to show up and are pushing them to do extra courses,etc.Nothing illegal about it,but not a very happy enviroment or very conclusive to enjoyment either methinks.

And what's wrong with that? You really have it in for clubs CG, because I can't see what's wrong with a club trying to make money in order to improve it's facilities. A club is run for the members benefit, if all the members pull together to get facilities, and then see people signing up and not putting their shoulder to the wheel to improve things, well no club wants members like that.

Whats the point of them joining?

You are immediately ASSuming that anyone who joins and isnt immediately in the get along gang is up to somthing shifty!!What is it to the club?You got their money.There ARE people out there who dont LIKE being involved in the social aspect of clubs. They might just want to shoot,fish,or fly and be left alone.Their only way out of this is joining an expensive club because it is the only one in their area,where they have no choice but to pay up and obey the rules.
If they leave,and it was an unfriendly parting.What is there to stop some sod on the comittie from screwing them with the Gardai.And dont say it doesnt or wont happen.
The unfortunate thing here is everything is geared towards ranges being operated by clubs.
There are some of us who would rather have ranges where you can go shooting,and not have to aquire a new circle of friends to do so.
Fine,I still have to be in a "club"so the Gardai can keep us all nicely piegon holed,but damn if I am going to be up there every week or whatever to be in a situation where I feel I am not enjoying myself and am subetly being pressurised to get more involved or being judged?You will find anyone doing then the bare minimum of membership.Or you will have the other type saying.Well I PAID ALOT for somone to do that.Why should I put my spare time into building,or helping out?? Cant have your cake and eat it as well.

bullets

Out of interest re:safety record since 1840
is that nobody died or nobody got injured? And what happened
in 1840 that was a recorded? or is it target shooting
only officially started then.

Dont want to get in between the argument on this thread (too much)
as I am seeing valid points on both sides of the fence.

I am presuming CG is an existing member of a club someplaces
or else they would not have given him the licence for the glock.
So as a person with having his own land and licence holder for a pistol and rifle and shotgun and.....I could go on. Enough to say he is a seasoned shooter.
It does not make practical sense for him to need or Have to travel a great distance to shoot and pay huge amounts of cash when he can simply go out on his own land and shoot without endagering or bothering anyone else.
After meeting CG he has been around guns his whole life and where
he lives would make an excellent range So it would be madness for him
to have to travel for hours.

From his point of view legally he can fire his own guns on his own land.
So he may not even have an interest in being in a rifle/pistol/gun club.
If he needs to be a member of a gunclub in order to fire his pistol it means
he has to pay 4-500 Euro initial fees and then fees every year after
for facilities that he does not need in order to safely fire his pistol.

For the likes of myself living in an estate with about 200 Houses that
are semi-detached I cant go out my back garden. I am quite happy to
pay the fees to have excellent facilities and meet other shooters that
I can chat to and hopefully learn a few things from. The Initial fee
is a BIG shock to the system especially for younger shooters
maybe still in school/college or people that are just getting into
the property ladder after buying their own home. It was very
off putting for me at first but the urge to shoot was stonger
and it was only a once off payment.

With regards to Midlands the yearly rate for existing members in only
going up by 15 Euros for the year. (At lead that what I was told Sunday)

With the amount of times I have gone out and bought something
stupid or something I did not need and stuck it on the credit card
far outways a meesly fee that is under 300 Euros. After all
you can use the facilities for Free all year round as often as you like.

Bearing in Mind they are expanding the club house (dunno why as its fine)
they are getting all new Clay stuff in (I heard a trench with 15 Traps! Olympic style) and also if they do get that Club F-Class Rifle it means it will give
people like myself that would not have the cash for another few years the
chance to play with kit and decide is the price worth it.

With Midlands I often wondered where the heck all the money was
coming from to have such great facilities. Even the road
which is a back road to the range is perfectly surfaced!!! They must
have friends in the counsil as its better than a main road!
The Land itself is on a long lease? and there is loads of it
They must have someone working in Bord na Móna to get that
kind of deal. I even hear one of the members built his house
next to or near the range theres dedication for ya!!

~B

Clare gunner

I am presuming CG is an existing member of a club someplaces
or else they would not have given him the licence for the glock

.

I do practical pistol.

[

So as a person with having his own land and licence holder for a pistol and rifle and shotgun and.....I could go on. Enough to say he is a seasoned shooter.
]It does not make practical sense for him to need or Have to travel a great distance to shoot and pay huge amounts of cash when he can simply go out on his own land and shoot without endagering or bothering anyone else.
After meeting CG he has been around guns his whole life and where
he lives would make an excellent range So it would be madness for him
to have to travel for hours.

Ever hear the expression the law is an Ass? It doesnt take that into consideration. Yet I am sure there other folks like me that have perfectly safe areas to shoot in as well.Why do you think I am looking seriously into getting this set up?:D I have no problems with folks joining clubs,if that is your thing or only option.It just isnt mine and quite a few other people I know.

From his point of view legally he can fire his own guns on his own land.

Well,according to the new laws to be enacted, that will be a very naughty thing to do,so I must be piegon holed,stamped,categorised,analyised,numberd and join a club like a good little sheep!:mad:
So maybe it is better to be the shepard and own the fold??

For the likes of myself living in an estate with about 200 Houses that
are semi-detached I cant go out my back garden. I am quite happy to
pay the fees to have excellent facilities and meet other shooters that
I can chat to and hopefully learn a few things from. The Initial fee
is a BIG shock to the system especially for younger shooters
maybe still in school/college or people that are just getting into
the property ladder after buying their own home. It was very
off putting for me at first but the urge to shoot was stonger
and it was only a once off payment.

And I feel very much for the majority of you shooters that are not in my very privilidged situation.It is just that I would hate to see somone or body taking advantage of anyone further by having a situation where they are running a club for making extra money out of folk that have no other choice. I am just too cynical and world weary to belive that everyone is doing somthing for the benefit of others without trying to make money somwhere.

With the amount of times I have gone out and bought something
stupid or something I did not need and stuck it on the credit card
far outways a meesly fee that is under 300 Euros. After all
you can use the facilities for Free all year round as often as you like.

Ah you young whipper snappers!!When I was a lad I had to make every penney count,thats old money to you,etc etc.:D True ,but when you throw in your fuel for your car,200 odd miles,etc,even cadging lifts and paying somones gas.It will still add up.300 Euros is a lotta.17 ammo.

bullets

One of the days CG, the temptation to open your own privite or semi-privite
range is gonna take over!!!!!

And myself, Kramer and Vegeta will be there to encourage you to do so at any chance we get!!!!. If only a few of us were well off and
could help chip in with a cold hard cash injection it could be fun.

~B

newby.204

bunny shooter wrote:

'Newby .204' where did name come from ?

i was new to the forum and i was going to start off with .204 as a caliber, now im not new and i dont have .204 but thems are the breaks!!!

bunny shooter

newby.204 wrote:

i was new to the forum and i was going to start off with .204 as a caliber, now im not new and i dont have .204 but thems are the breaks!!!

like your logic.

newby.204

bunny shooter wrote:

like your logic.

Dunno whether your slagging or complimenting but meh ill take it as a compliment im just tooooo lazy to change it and everyone knows me now anyway so!!

bullets

Yeah did not know if that was a slagging or not.
Since you have been posting I have to admire your sig though

~B

bunny shooter

newby.204 wrote:

Dunno whether your slagging or complimenting but meh ill take it as a compliment im just tooooo lazy to change it and everyone knows me now anyway so!!

compliment !

bunny shooter

bullets wrote:

Since you have been posting I have to admire your sig though

compliment for ???????

bullets

bunny shooter wrote:

compliment for ???????

That nice sweet little image on your .sig file that has your username
across it.

~B

bunny shooter

bullets wrote:

That nice sweet little image on your .sig file that has your username
across it.

~B

You have me now, new to this please explain ?

bullets

bunny shooter wrote:

You have me now, new to this please explain ?

your signature file! ie every time you post you have a couple of lines
after the last piece you type which displays
a bit of text or a link or an image.

In your case after everytime you post an image of a round
appears along with your username.


~B

bunny shooter

bullets wrote:

your signature file! ie every time you post you have a couple of lines
after the last piece you type which displays
a bit of text or a link or an image.

In your case after everytime you post an image of a round
appears along with your username.


~B

i don't see it ! didn't do it, i think

Sparks

bullets wrote:

Out of interest re:safety record since 1840
is that nobody died or nobody got injured?

Both, for target shooting, so far as we've been able to determine.

And what happened
in 1840 that was a recorded? or is it target shooting
only officially started then.

The earliest record I could find of a target shooting match in Ireland took place in 1841 in front square in Trinity College Dublin. Shot using muskets, standing, at something like 50 yards. I must get my original notes and scan them in some day, the number of similarities between the record (a letter written about the match by the winner to a friend of his in england) and the kind of postmortem we give matches today is downright funny, right down to plotting group patterns. First prize, by the way, was a musket, so in today's money, you'd be talking about somewhere between 1000 and 2500 euro depending on your take on how closely a musket in 1841 resembles a modern match rifle

jaycee

He's referring to the picture of the bullet under "Newby 204's" posts ..
The little gold one with Newby 204 written on it.

This....:



Where the "Sig" ..he's talking about is and abbreviation of the word "Signature" and is the little comment that appears at the end of each of his posts.

This ....:

my friends think its weird that i say i go shooting "bunny rabbits"