I am not a lawyer.... but:

DeVore

Please note, these links do NOT refer to private members clubs, that is covered by a different act.


http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1956/en/act/pub/0002/sec0004.html#zza2y1956s4

Quoting the part which primaraily concerns poker tournaments:

Unlawful gaming. 4.—(1) No person shall promote or assist in promoting or provide facilities for any kind of gaming—

( a ) in which by reason of the nature of the game, the chances of all the players, including the banker, are not equal, or

( b ) in which any portion of the stakes is retained by the promoter or is retained by the banker otherwise than as winnings on the result of the play, or

( c ) by means of any slot-machine not prohibited by section 10.

(2) Such gaming is in this Act referred to as unlawful gaming.

(3) Gaming shall not be unlawful if no stake is hazarded by the players with the promoter or banker other than a charge for the right to take part in the game, provided that—

( a ) only one such charge is made in respect of the day on which the game is played, and

( b ) the charge is of the same amount for all the players, and

( c ) the promoter derives no personal profit from the promotion of the game.

There is an "english" guide to most of that act and its amendments here:

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/GamingLotteriesActs.pdf/Files/GamingLotteriesActs.pdf

DeV.

White Knight

In my interpretation below, I think freezeouts would be fine but rebuy tournaments would not :rolleyes: ....

DeVore wrote:

Quoting the part which primaraily concerns poker tournaments:

Unlawful gaming. 4.—(1) No person shall promote or assist in promoting or provide facilities for any kind of gaming—

( a ) in which by reason of the nature of the game, the chances of all the players, including the banker, are not equal, or freezeout - everyone has the same starting stack (i.e. at start of game all equal?)

( b ) in which any portion of the stakes is retained by the promoter or is retained by the banker otherwise than as winnings on the result of the play, or (100% prizepool needs to be paid out)

( c ) by means of any slot-machine not prohibited by section 10. (N/A)

(2) Such gaming is in this Act referred to as unlawful gaming.

(3) Gaming shall not be unlawful if no stake is hazarded by the players with the promoter or banker other than a charge for the right to take part in the game, provided that—

( a ) only one such charge is made in respect of the day on which the game is played, and (registration fee)

( b ) the charge is of the same amount for all the players, and (in a freezeout it would be)

( c ) the promoter derives no personal profit from the promotion of the game(this one is open for debate imo?)

DeVore

My interpretation of the last point is that promoters are not allowed to derive personal profit from the promotion of the game but a company would be allowed to charge a management fee for running it.

DeV.

bohsman

From talking to a few people that have looked into this promoters are allowed to take a reasonable wage, not sure what the definition of a reasonable wage is though.

hotspur

We have done this many times before here. The tournament organisers could easily be arrested for operating unlawful gaming by the Gardai if they so wished, and it would come to the judge. The point would then be arguing that the fees retained by the organisers were for the costs of running the tournament, including payments to those working to run it.

But judges aren't stupid and the reality, as we all know, is that these tournaments are run for profit and are not legal under this legislation. If the will existed to prosecute then the organiser would be convicted by any judge in my opinion if the full facts were before them.

But if one were ever to be prosecuted what they should do is just plead guilty and take the €150 fine (there's no real chance of being sent to prison for 3 months). That's why casinos operate in this country, they are 100% illegal in their actual activities of having a "house", but the penalties are such a joke under the current legislation that there's no point in prosecuting them.

We'll have new legislation pretty soon.

Samba

That's the nail on the head WK. Having worked with a tournament organiser briefly, I know that he sought legal advice and was advised by the Gardai that so long as the event was a freeze out with a fixed fee, it was within the current legal requirements.

CelticPhantom

What about tournament held in local pubs, etc? Are these all strictly illegal?

[nicK]

hotspur wrote:

We'll have new legislation pretty soon.

what do you suppose it might do? bigger penaltys or dumb down the current legislation?
am i right in thinking all cardrooms/private members clubs and casinos are illegal in ireland with the current legislation?

Ace2007

card rooms are not illegal, as far as i'm aware, its the blackjack and other games on the floor,

hotspur

If a cardroom takes rake then it is acting illegally. Yes Nick all of these cardrooms and "private member" casinos are illegal under the current legislation. Pub tournaments run for profit are not legally provided for under the legislation either. Thankfully we're looking at new legislation which will regulate the area as opposed to the ridiculous system we currently have with which the government has just abnegated responsibility.

I anticipate that casinos will be made legal by the end of this year. Our licensing conditions and codes of conduct should mirror jurisdicitons like Britain's. This will result in a smaller number of casinos than currently exist here because the number of licenses will be restricted, and open overt competition with advertising would in all likelihood result in them being unable to compete in major cities anyway.

I don't know what will happen about poker tournaments and card clubs. If it is addressed then cardclubs will probably explicitly need a casino license which they probably won't be able to afford. Also it is almost inconceivable that poker in pubs would be legalised. WON'T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN...who are in there drinking underage.

bohsman

CelticPhantom wrote:

What about tournament held in local pubs, etc? Are these all strictly illegal?

Yea, theres no argument for allowing gambling and sale of alcohol in same venue.

DeVore

Yeah, anything with booze in it... big no no.

DeV.

jimmii

I've played in events where Gardai have even been playing! Don't most of the pub tournament organisers ask for a registration of some sort so that it is technically a members only game?

Lplated

hotspur wrote:

If a cardroom takes rake then it is acting illegally. Yes Nick all of these cardrooms and "private member" casinos are illegal under the current legislation.

Its not clear that private members clubs are acting illegally under the legislation. There is at least an argument that, once a private members club has fully complied with the private members legislation, it can thereafter not fall foul of the Gambling law.

A cardroom that was not a private member club (if such exists) would be in a different category.

RoundTower

Bottom line is nobody really knows, and anyone who pretends to is talking out of their arse. There is a huge grey area.

Lots of people seem to think something like "freezeouts are legal and rebuy tourneys are not" by some convoluted perversion of the law. Anyone who thinks this, what is your opinion on whether underage players can enter such tournaments? Provide something to back it up because I can't see why not.

Samba

All i can go on RT is what i heard from a pub tourney organiser and the advice he received, he changed the format of his tourneys based on this advice.



You are right though, it's a grey area. providing you are not running cash games the cops generally don't bust any balls.

Btw love the trolling!

RoundTower

yes I've heard this from a few different people, what I have deduced is that the Gardai don't know the law any better than the Boards punters.

hotspur

It's not a grey area, it really isn't. Lplated it is 100% clear that a private members' club which has a house is acting illegally. The deal with private members' clubs is that wagering may be allowed between private members who all have an equal chance. Since the house has a guaranteed % advantage and other members cannot act as the house it is 100% illegal and has been stated as so by the authorities. Not too long ago undercover gardai were sent to these places to ascertain that this is what actually takes place there The "grey area" mantra by the casinos is just propaganda.

People need to understand that gaming is not automatically legal just because it takes place under the guise of a private members' club.

RT some of the legislation and situations are quite clear and can be stated unambigiously.

Generally speaking asking a random garda sergeant would be as helpful as asking a random dog in the street, they may tell you what they will or will not do but not whether "a freezeout NL tournament in a pub / hotel with registration and joining a club is legal or not".

The freezout aspect takes no account of the fact that if the operator makes a profit it is illegal gaming, it only complies with the "only 1 charge is made" condition.

Regarding gambling and the sale of alcohol, gaming in pubs is illegal *but* it doesn't apply if that gaming fulfills the 3 criteria which preclude gaming from being classified as illegal gaming, as Dev pasted they are:

This section does not apply to the playing of a game where no stake is hazarded by the players other than a charge for the right to take part in the game, provided that
( a ) only one such charge is made in respect of the day on which the game is played, and
( b ) the charge is of the same amount for all the players, and
( c ) the promoter (if any) derives no personal profit from the promotion of the game.

So if you are claiming that freezout poker tournaments are legal in a hall somewhere then they are also legal in licensed premises.

bohsman

You are allowed to be the house in places, its not well advertised and Im sure theyll want you to provide a massive br but the option is there.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

As has been kinda stated earlier; "Profit" is not a straightforward term indicating income minus obvious costs.

There are a lot of intangible items that can be added before calculating profit (e.g. depreciation) for the purposes of the revenue commissioners. Also, the promotors reasonable wage can be deducted before calculating revenue commissioner profits for tax purposes.

On a further note, if this is the only issue that the gardai are going to shut-down a club for, they would have to get an accountant to compile the warrant necessary for raiding the club, surely? Seems like a bit too much hassle for them.

If gardai were keen to shut down the club, they would probably go with the profit angle to get the warrant, but without thinking about it in sufficient detail, and then the case could be thrown out of court for using an improperly compiled warrant to raid the club.

Although, to use Dev's words, i'm no lawyer...

Goodluck2me

bohsman wrote:

You are allowed to be the house in places, its not well advertised and Im sure theyll want you to provide a massive br but the option is there.

where?

also whats up with your sig?

DeVore

1. The "gaming" in a licensed premises is covered in different legislature. It is a lot more complex and pretty much says "no".

2. You can't murder people in a private members club, some things are simply illegal regardless of where it happens.

3. Hotsput says: Since the house has a guaranteed % advantage and other members cannot act as the house it is 100% illegal and has been stated as so by the authorities.

This is incorrect, the Fitz offers (communicated by means of poster) the opportunity to act as "banker" on any of their "pit games". This is a recent development.

I'll research the other legislature for points 1,2 if I get the time.

DeV.

bohsman

DeVore wrote:

3. Hotsput says: Since the house has a guaranteed % advantage and other members cannot act as the house it is 100% illegal and has been stated as so by the authorities.

This is incorrect, the Fitz offers (communicated by means of poster) the opportunity to act as "banker" on any of their "pit games". This is a recent development.

I'll research the other legislature for points 1,2 if I get the time.

DeV.

The only part that is a recent development is the poster. The option has always been there.

RoundTower

hotspur wrote:

It's not a grey area, it really isn't. Lplated it is 100% clear that a private members' club which has a house is acting illegally. The deal with private members' clubs is that wagering may be allowed between private members who all have an equal chance. Since the house has a guaranteed % advantage and other members cannot act as the house it is 100% illegal and has been stated as so by the authorities.

Hotspur -
Let's say we are having dinner in my house together. After dinner we are bored and I offer to flip coins with you giving you 5/4 on your money. Is this legal?

What if there are 3 of us at the dinner? Or 20?

What if we have the dinner in a restaurant instead of in my house?

What if I own the restaurant? What if there is nobody in the restaurant except us? What if you own the restaurant?

What if it's not a restaurant, but a football club? A bridge club? A pool club? A poker club?

Where do you draw the line here? There is absolutely definitely a grey area unless you say that even the first possibility is illegal under the current law.

You seem to know a lot about the ins and outs of gambling regulations, or think you do. I don't know what you do but it sounds like you have some kind of vested interest in the matter, I don't know if you have ever explained this on boards. I think it would be nice if you could answer the above questions before you continue to give legal advice on the matter, and I think the same should apply to anyone who tries to teach us gambling law.