speeding ?

dubtom

After paying a speeding fine and accepting graciously my two points, a mate tells me that those handheld speedy things that the guards use are not legal in court if they don't issue the offender with a print out.Is this true? Personally I don't believe it and am pissed that he didn't tell me before I paid the fine, but I should get clarifacation just incase. I'd probably have paid the fine anyway, I'm a chicken.

Bluetonic

One quick question, were you speeding?

Gary ITR

dubtom wrote:

After paying a speeding fine and accepting graciously my two points, a mate tells me that those handheld speedy things that the guards use are not legal in court if they don't issue the offender with a print out.Is this true? Personally I don't believe it and am pissed that he didn't tell me before I paid the fine, but I should get clarifacation just incase. I'd probably have paid the fine anyway, I'm a chicken.

I'd like to know this too but don't think an answer will be given here as you can see the PC brigade will be out in force

jhegarty

Bluetonic wrote:

One quick question, were you speeding?

Whats that got to do with anyones legal rights ?

BrandonBlock

Bluetonic wrote:

One quick question, were you speeding?

Here come the PC brigade.. look out OP!!!

I'd also be interested in this, and has anyone ever lost a court case where the ticket was issued with a handheld device. To be honest I don't think they (the gardai) would bother with the summons unless they believed they could have you prosecuted.

tenchi-fan

jhegarty wrote:

Whats that got to do with anyones legal rights ?

I was about to say the same thing! It's obvious that the OP was speeding given that he was stopped by a guard using a speeding (camera?) device, issue with a speeding fine, and he then paid the fine. What the OP seems to be asking is could he use a legal technicality to get out of paying the fine. yet it seems some one in the thread (who'll remain nameless!) is gearing up for a "you should have to pay the fine. you're making the roads dangerous. Take some responsibility. Which would you prefer, to pay a small fine or end up killing some one. etc etc"-style argument!

I posted another thread which was essentially a question about how the whole insurance process works when some one wants to make a claim off some ones insurance for an accident that happens on private land. I didn't actually get an answer to that question, I just ended up explaining myself to some unhelpful idiot who said it serves me right if I lose my no claims bonus and the police should get involved!

Of course any issue is open to general discussion, for example I don't know whether "those handheld speedy things that the guards use are not legal in court if they don't issue the offender with a print out", but I might point out that to challenge the decision in court would require a solicitor and could work out quite expensive. But there's nothing less helpful than going way off topic with a thread and making things personal when the question is actually about a more general issue.

maidhc

The handheld thingees are indeed legal in court. They don't give a printout, but they are not required to do so. Not an ideal situation, but it is the situation nonetheless.

I share other posters disdain for Bluetonic's childish comment.

Pherekydes

maidhc wrote:

I share other posters disdain for Bluetonic's childish comment.

What was childish about it? It was a simple question.

maidhc

Slow coach wrote:

What was childish about it? It was a simple question.

It was unhelpful irrelevant, and as PC as Greenpeace press conference.

markpb

dubtom wrote:

After paying a speeding fine and accepting graciously my two points, a mate tells me that those handheld speedy things that the guards use are not legal in court if they don't issue the offender with a print out.Is this true? Personally I don't believe it and am pissed that he didn't tell me before I paid the fine, but I should get clarifacation just incase. I'd probably have paid the fine anyway, I'm a chicken.

IIRC the machines couldn't (or didn't) initally print a copy of the exact speed and those cases were thrown out. I think they were changed after that to become complint with the law.

maidhc

markpb wrote:

IIRC the machines couldn't (or didn't) initally print a copy of the exact speed and those cases were thrown out. I think they were changed after that to become complint with the law.

No, they don't print out anything. The garda has eyes, notes the speed and stops the vehicle if he sees fit. If a person appeals notice of the appeal must be served on the garda, and he can give evidence in court. If he doesn't turn up then the case will most likely be thrown out, but he will probably show, and the OP will get double the points.

the 2004 RTA provides that the following may be used for measuring speed:

(b) electronic or other apparatus (including a radar gun) which is not capable of producing a permanent record. It is not necessary to prove that the electronic or other apparatus was accurate or in good working order.’’,

Our man in Havana

It is not necessary to prove that the electronic or other apparatus was accurate or in good working order.

It is a wonder that no rich person has challenged this in a court.

maidhc

Bond-007 wrote:

It is a wonder that no rich person has challenged this in a court.

It isn't really. Bringing a constitutional action in order to avoid two penalty points is not a particularly efficient or cost effective thing to do.

axer

I remember the case(s) down in cork whereby someone challenged that there was no print out which meant there was no proof or something like that. They won the case but then the government changed the law and declared that a print out was not needed.

@OP: they no longer need a printout so you couldn't have gotten away with it.

Does anyone know whether it still takes about 4/5 months to apply the points?

BrandonBlock

So if theres no printout, and you receive a letter but your registration is wrong (the gardai took it down wrong or whatever) would you need a solicitor to challenge that in court? Do the judges not even give normal people a say?

maidhc

BrandonBlock wrote:

So if theres no printout, and you receive a letter but your registration is wrong (the gardai took it down wrong or whatever) would you need a solicitor to challenge that in court? Do the judges not even give normal people a say?

Of course a solicitor is not needed, but there is some sense in the saying that "a person who represents himself has a fool for a client..." The judge will be more than happy to listen though. If there is a problem like the registration being wrong it really depends on the judge as to what the outcome will be.

For something like challenging a speeding ticket a solicitor won't exactly charge huge fees though and most will normally tell you exactly your chances and the cost at the outset.

tallaghtoutlaws

axer wrote:

I remember the case(s) down in cork whereby someone challenged that there was no print out which meant there was no proof or something like that. They won the case but then the government changed the law and declared that a print out was not needed.

@OP: they no longer need a printout so you couldn't have gotten away with it.

Does anyone know whether it still takes about 4/5 months to apply the points?

Points get put on within 14 days. I got 4 in the space of 3 weeks paid both the same time got the letter 14 days after paying fine telling me points added to licence. Lesson learned slow down kids

peepsbates

tallaghtoutlaws wrote:

Points get put on within 14 days. I got 4 in the space of 3 weeks paid both the same time got the letter 14 days after paying fine telling me points added to licence. Lesson learned slow down kids

not always, i waited 3 mths before my 2 points were applied

Mezcita

maidhc wrote:

Of course a solicitor is not needed, but there is some sense in the saying that "a person who represents himself has a fool for a client..." The judge will be more than happy to listen though. If there is a problem like the registration being wrong it really depends on the judge as to what the outcome will be.

For something like challenging a speeding ticket a solicitor won't exactly charge huge fees though and most will normally tell you exactly your chances and the cost at the outset.

More or less correct. Its entirely up to the judge whether he decides to listen to you if you decide not to be represented by a solicitor.

That said, this business about a print out showing your speed is no longer required.

milltown

peepsbates wrote:

not always, i waited 3 mths before my 2 points were applied

Further OT, I know, but how long between the offence and receiving notification?

I passed a Gatso van on the N4 a few weeks ago at about 95kph in an 80 zone and I'm wondering if I'm snared or if they had the camera set for a higher speed. No defending it, I just wasn't paying attention.

Another point. I thought they were supposed to level the playing field and make these traps more visible, to emphasise the safety aspect and silence the "fish in a barrel" critics. When I first saw this van I thought it had crashed, it was buried so far into the bushes.

axer

peepsbates wrote:

not always, i waited 3 mths before my 2 points were applied

I had to wait 4 months. It was when the points first came out. I got my points in april 3 years ago but they won't be taken off until August.

Seth Brundle

milltown wrote:

Another point. I thought they were supposed to level the playing field and make these traps more visible, to emphasise the safety aspect and silence the "fish in a barrel" critics. When I first saw this van I thought it had crashed, it was buried so far into the bushes.

You thought wrong! In fact whilst some traps may become more visible, more and more newer ones will become more covert hidden in unmarked cars, busses, motorbikes, etc.

Our man in Havana

busses

Your joking?

Seth Brundle

From what I hear, the likes of the double decker parked along the N4 in the mornings contains one happy snapper!
I have not had the opportunity to drive past one to see if the legend is true but I have no reason to doubt it!

Skatedude

i've seen that bus many,many times while driving to work, never seen any1 in it looking like they were trying to snare speeders though.

Marcus.Aurelius

The handheld devices don't print, thats true. If you dispute your speed with the attending Garda, he will show you the speed laser gun which has your speed saved from the last time he pulled the trigger. Just ask, stop this legal/illegal nonsense. These guys are just in a job.

colly10

milltown wrote:

I passed a Gatso van on the N4 a few weeks ago at about 95kph in an 80 zone and I'm wondering if I'm snared or if they had the camera set for a higher speed. No defending it, I just wasn't paying attention.

I can't see ye getting away with that tbh

dubtom

It seems this is a touchy subject with many. Yes, I was speeding at the end of the M1, 72 in a 50 zone, paid the fine, accept the penalty. I have no issues with that. Actually the cop did show me the gun with 72 kmp on it but the fine said 84, which is one of the reasons the subject of legality came up with my mate.I've gone down the 'defend myself' road many years ago and ended up with a endorsment that just wouldn't go away, and 3 times the fine that everyone else who just said sorry got on the day, so I learned my lesson. and yes, I also learned the lesson of speeding, don't get caught, no no I mean dont it.;)
maoleary The handheld devices don't print, thats true. If you dispute your speed with the attending Garda, he will show you the speed laser gun which has your speed saved from the last time he pulled the trigger. Just ask, stop this legal/illegal nonsense. These guys are just in a job.
I thought I just did that.

MrPudding

maoleary wrote:

The handheld devices don't print, thats true. If you dispute your speed with the attending Garda, he will show you the speed laser gun which has your speed saved from the last time he pulled the trigger. Just ask, stop this legal/illegal nonsense. These guys are just in a job.

Does the fact that there is no obligation on the part of the state to prove that the devices used to prosecute you do not have to be proven to be accurate or indeed even in working order not worry you in the slightest?

2004 RTA wrote:

(b) electronic or other apparatus (including a radar gun) which is not capable of producing a permanent record. It is not necessary to prove that the electronic or other apparatus was accurate or in good working order.’’,

I know some people have a bit of a bee in their bonnets over speeding but am I the only one that thinks that it is insane that a device used by the state, which has the potential to change a persons life, does not have to be proven to be in working order?

Forget about speeders trying to get off, what about non speeders being presecuted in error?

Fcuking typical irish loads of balls.

MrP

Our man in Havana

It is only a matter of time someone brings a case to the high court.

Alun

MrPudding wrote:

I know some people have a bit of a bee in their bonnets over speeding but am I the only one that thinks that it is insane that a device used by the state, which has the potential to change a persons life, does not have to be proven to be in working order?

No you're not. In any other country it wouldn't be tolerated, I'm sure, but then ...

Our man in Havana

Would there be any merit in a constitutional challenge to this piece of law?