FG/FF Supporters

Elmo

I just don't get FG/FF supporters.

I was reading somewhere that one FF supporter would like Mary Harney to be in their party, if you support Mary Harney then surely you could give up the old party ties (civil war ties) and vote PD, if that's what you want.

Are FG/FF supporters brainwashed?

Really what I want to know (from FG/FF supporters) is why do you vote for FG over FF and visa-versa?

Also to avoid confussion could people who are supporters answer this question rather then others giving opinions on why they vote the way they vote.

Chakar

I don't get why you don't vote for Fianna Fáil.

Raiser

The only way I can rationalise a vote for Fianna Fail right now would be in the case of someone in the legal profession who might well be planning on future property investments, yacht purchases and personal jets, all paid for with funds taken from the taxpayers pocket via the inevitable tribunals we have both now and in the near future.......

meanmachine3

My main reason for not voting F.F. is broken promises, plus they go into goven with a party that gets the lowest votes, so therefore the votes that the other parties like, greens, fine gael, labour etc get mean absolute f..k all.
pus as a voter bertie cannot be trusted. if the whole truth about bertie came out before the election would the out come be different.

Elmo

I don't get why you don't vote for Fianna Fáil.

So convince me to vote FF over anyother party, in particular FG.

Show me the difference between these parties. Show me why you vote FF.

Breezer

I'm not tied to either, though admittedly I would lean much more strongly towards Fine Gael. I voted Fine Gael over Fianna Fáil in this election because:

1) Public services. Fianna Fáil seems to be of the opinion that managing the country's economy is equivalent to managing the country itself. As far as I'm concerned, it's not. I can't see the point in a strong economy if it doesn't translate into public services that benefit society. For example, it provides jobs, but how far do people have to commute to get to those jobs?

2) Honest politics. I have no faith in the integrity of Bertie Ahern or the rest of Fianna Fáil. Whatever else Fine Gael might be, they are honest (I admit that Lowry was the exception, but it's one exception as opposed to many examples of corruption in Fianna Fáil, e.g. Haughey, Burke, Padgraig Flynn, Beverly Flynn, Lawlor).

3) Arrogance and complacency. Fianna Fáil, from what I can see, are beginning to take being in government for granted. I hate to think what they will be like at the end of another 5 year term. For Bertie Ahern to go on national television and state that the Health Service is not in crisis and that his government should be congratulated for managing it so well is a joke. This is a first world country, and people should not have to run the risk of becoming more ill in hospital than they were when they went in due to a lack of hygiene.

4) The party leader. I realize that I am going against the grain here but I have far more respect for Enda Kenny than for Bertie Ahern. Bertie has built up an apparently convincing public persona of being a common man when in fact he is anything but. In addition, his 'all things to all people' approach, while admittedly instrumental in dealing with the various groups in the North, has seen him buckle time and time again when pressurized by interest groups in this state.

During the debate, Bertie attacked Enda's rollout of free GP visits to children under 5, repeatedly stating that 'no child born today will benefit from this service.' What Enda in fact said was that the service would be rolled out on a phased basis. If it were to be rolled out initially to children two years of age or less, for example, then all children less than two years old now would benefit from the service immediately. Enda did not go into specifics of how it would be done, but the fact remains that Bertie's logic is flawed. And yet common belief seems to be that Bertie is shrewd and Enda is an idiot.

5) Other issues I disagree with FF on. These would include the routing of the M3, refusal to inspect US planes landing at Shannon, the continued storage of electronic voting machines at a cost to the tax payer, the fact that some of their election proposals were nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction to Fine Gael's, the insistence on calling the election on a Thursday, alienating many students (a group who, by pure coincidence I'm sure, have a lower support for Fianna Fáil), and broken promises that leave me, quite frankly, unable to believe a word of what they're promising now.

6) The PDs. I object to a party with such a low support rate effectively running the country, and reckoned a vote for the alliance for change would help put an end to that. The current situation where the PDs appear likely to not only get back into government regardless of whether it's led by FF or FG, but to be guaranteed the Health Ministry again if they do, worries me.

I should probably clarify that I gave my number one vote to Labour on this occasion, and number two to Fine Gael. However, that was heavily due to the Fine Gael candidates in my area being somewhat below par, especially when compared to the Labour candidates, and the pre-election pact between the two parties. I know that the only parties that will ever lead a government in this country are Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael, and would much rather the latter.

K-9

On Health, FF & PD's have the quickest way of getting 1,000 private beds out of public hospitals and putting them into private hospitals where they should be, thus freeing up beds for public patients.

That appeared to have been the only significant policy that differentiated FG/Lab/Greens/SF etc. etc. from the rest. Pump more money to be swallowed up by vested interests to try and create 2,000 beds or actually try and change the system.

It showed how poor FG/Lab policies where that Harney/Lenihan/Bertie actually won any debates on Health.

The only innovative policy on taxation was FF proposals on PRSI i.e. to make people on over €48,000 pay the same as everybody else.

jjbrien

Breezer wrote:

I'm not tied to either, though admittedly I would lean much more strongly towards Fine Gael. I voted Fine Gael over Fianna Fáil in this election because:

1) Public services. Fianna Fáil seems to be of the opinion that managing the country's economy is equivalent to managing the country itself. As far as I'm concerned, it's not. I can't see the point in a strong economy if it doesn't translate into public services that benefit society. For example, it provides jobs, but how far do people have to commute to get to those jobs?

2) Honest politics. I have no faith in the integrity of Bertie Ahern or the rest of Fianna Fáil. Whatever else Fine Gael might be, they are honest (I admit that Lowry was the exception, but it's one exception as opposed to many examples of corruption in Fianna Fáil, e.g. Haughey, Burke, Padgraig Flynn, Beverly Flynn, Lawlor).

3) Arrogance and complacency. Fianna Fáil, from what I can see, are beginning to take being in government for granted. I hate to think what they will be like at the end of another 5 year term. For Bertie Ahern to go on national television and state that the Health Service is not in crisis and that his government should be congratulated for managing it so well is a joke. This is a first world country, and people should not have to run the risk of becoming more ill in hospital than they were when they went in due to a lack of hygiene.

4) The party leader. I realize that I am going against the grain here but I have far more respect for Enda Kenny than for Bertie Ahern. Bertie has built up an apparently convincing public persona of being a common man when in fact he is anything but. In addition, his 'all things to all people' approach, while admittedly instrumental in dealing with the various groups in the North, has seen him buckle time and time again when pressurized by interest groups in this state.

During the debate, Bertie attacked Enda's rollout of free GP visits to children under 5, repeatedly stating that 'no child born today will benefit from this service.' What Enda in fact said was that the service would be rolled out on a phased basis. If it were to be rolled out initially to children two years of age or less, for example, then all children less than two years old now would benefit from the service immediately. Enda did not go into specifics of how it would be done, but the fact remains that Bertie's logic is flawed. And yet common belief seems to be that Bertie is shrewd and Enda is an idiot.

5) Other issues I disagree with FF on. These would include the routing of the M3, refusal to inspect US planes landing at Shannon, the continued storage of electronic voting machines at a cost to the tax payer, the fact that some of their election proposals were nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction to Fine Gael's, the insistence on calling the election on a Thursday, alienating many students (a group who, by pure coincidence I'm sure, have a lower support for Fianna Fáil), and broken promises that leave me, quite frankly, unable to believe a word of what they're promising now.

All very true and very accurate. You just have to look at BIFFO to see why I choose to support FG over FF any day. He comes accross now as a peroson who could not give a sh*t about the common person and would does not listen to other peoples opinions not matter how wrong he is.

FF bought this election thats how they won it. Dont you think that I was a too much of a coincidence that most SSIA's matured just before the election. :rolleyes: FG does not belive in this sort of thing. FG would rather keep the economy going and make life better for everyone in Ireland and not just the rich as FF seem to favor the rich.

Chakar

Elmo wrote:

So convince me to vote FF over anyother party, in particular FG.

Show me the difference between these parties. Show me why you vote FF.

You're very lazy aren't you!

AidoCQS

Seanies32 wrote:

On Health, FF & PD's have the quickest way of getting 1,000 private beds out of public hospitals and putting them into private hospitals where they should be, thus freeing up beds for public patients.

What’s quickest? - What is that apart from spin? at what cost, who pays? This is going to be the stealth tax that’s makes the rest of them look like chicken feed, but then you re-elected them after those stealth taxes didn’t you anyway. We discussed this before. Why build a second system when the firstly one is not being funded? Private health does not work sir - it is not a commodity, most people need the most valuable health insurance in the last 5 years of their life, will you be able to afford that? If you are a working stiff like most of us, those are the five years of your life you will not be working, how will you pay for this? Do not be so foolish as to assume the cost of private health, which is now based on 'borrowed' beds will remain the same when they start building beds, its going to increase exponentially, and you wont afford it without selling part of your estate for those most valuable last five years. Do your own research, make up an American Social security number and try get a few quotes online, base it on when you are 55, or 65. The people who buy into this vacuous 'Quickest' argument will have years to regret it.

joecoote

I'm not a voter for either FF or FG. They are so much the same that to my mind the only difference is in their names. Having said that, I can see why a floating voter might logically vote for either party. Those who have a semblance of social conscience left would have gravitated toward the FG/Labour coalition thinking that Labour would have lent to some balance to a business centric FG agenda. Those who are saddled with a big mortgages and living expenses, and don't give a damn beyond the next credit card bill, would have gravitated toward FF/PD coaltion. These people might not have been happy with FF/PD excesses but are happy enough to gather any scraps to pay for their expensive life styles. With our new US Presidential style election system, these two parties will be the only alternatives for the foreseeable future. The business of Ireland is business.

CerebralCortex

Chakar wrote:

You're very lazy aren't you!

Ah hallo we're waiting for you to answer him.

jjbrien

Chakar wrote:

You're very lazy aren't you!

Hmmm I dont know that you mean by this. The OP put forward a vaild question. I gave my answer for voting FG.

mickd

jjbrien wrote:

FF bought this election thats how they won it. Dont you think that I was a too much of a coincidence that most SSIA's matured just before the election. :rolleyes: FG does not belive in this sort of thing. FG would rather keep the economy going and make life better for everyone in Ireland and not just the rich as FF seem to favor the rich.

You have only realised this now. Any wonder why FG haven't been elected to government in over 25 years with bright sparks like you in the party.

gandalf

Chakar wrote:

You're very lazy aren't you!

Either you start participating, stop this borderline trolling or stop posting in politics is that clear.....

jjbrien

mickd wrote:

You have only realised this now. Any wonder why FG haven't been elected to government in over 25 years with bright sparks like you in the party.

The topic of this tread is why you choose to vote or support FG. Attacking posters is not a topic. The FF supporters here have still not outlined thier position on why they chose to vote or support FF. They seem to imply negitive posts. FF during the election used this same tactic.

Another reason why I chose to vote FG was when I was badly ill about 4 years ago I approached all the parties FF, Lab, FG and PD's. The only person why was prepared to help me was a FG senator. Without them I possibly would be homeless now. But instead I now have a good job with good pay and can give back to society instead of been a burden on it.

miju

Chakar wrote:

You're very lazy aren't you!

so in otherwords Fianna Fail have no positive aspects

still waiting for you to tell me what positive and successful thing FF have actually done for this conuntry from a previous thread

K-9

AidoCQS wrote:

What’s quickest? - What is that apart from spin? at what cost, who pays? This is going to be the stealth tax that’s makes the rest of them look like chicken feed, but then you re-elected them after those stealth taxes didn’t you anyway. We discussed this before. Why build a second system when the firstly one is not being funded? Private health does not work sir - it is not a commodity, most people need the most valuable health insurance in the last 5 years of their life, will you be able to afford that? If you are a working stiff like most of us, those are the five years of your life you will not be working, how will you pay for this? Do not be so foolish as to assume the cost of private health, which is now based on 'borrowed' beds will remain the same when they start building beds, its going to increase exponentially, and you wont afford it without selling part of your estate for those most valuable last five years. Do your own research, make up an American Social security number and try get a few quotes online, base it on when you are 55, or 65. The people who buy into this vacuous 'Quickest' argument will have years to regret it.

So are you suggesting the German system, where everybody pays 14% into the Health system?

Look I can understand your concerns. Health insurance doesn't mean much if like my father last year you are stuck on a trolley in Letterkenny General for 12 hours and there is no private beds because they are the isolation units and you have paid Health Insurance for maybe 50 years of your life. The Health system is being funded massively, the current system has had its chance. If the new system frees up a 1,000 beds in the next 5 years well it's worth it.

If private hospitals cherry pick clients well that will free up even more resources in the public system.

K-9

miju wrote:

so in otherwords Fianna Fail have no positive aspects

still waiting for you to tell me what positive and successful thing FF have actually done for this conuntry from a previous thread

If you think FF have done nothing positive well then what's the point in preaching to the converted?

Smoking ban, minimum wage, no tax on minimum wage, record low unemployment levels...........

jjbrien

Seanies32 wrote:

If you think FF have done nothing positive well then what's the point in preaching to the converted?

Smoking ban, minimum wage, no tax on minimum wage, record low unemployment levels...........

FF did also do the following negitive things: Steath taxes which even the poor have to pay, increased vat from 20% to 21%, bin taxes, toll roads, eircom privitation. Increased vat on esb/gas bills from 13.5% to 21%.

FG are in favor to direct taxation and not by stealth.

Húrin

Chakar wrote:

I don't get why you don't vote for Fianna Fáil.

Are you blind? They've done some good, and some bad, but that didn't mean they were the best choice this time around.

K-9

jjbrien wrote:

Increased vat on esb/gas bills from 13.5% to 21%.

Where did you get that from?

Look there are more people paying no PAYE/PRSI than ever before, more people paying at the lower rate. If you reduced the VAT Rates, less money would be available to change tax credits, standard bands etc which can be targetted specifically at lower earners. Certain areas of VAT could certainly be looked at eg. utilities are at 5% in Northern Ireland. There are schemes (which certainly can be improved for lower incomes) on bin charges.

Look I'm not saying FF/PD' was a perfect Govt., neither was the rainbow as those with rose tinted glasses think, but they have made huge strides on personal taxation.

If you reduce VAT, abolish bin charges, tolls etc. etc. the old question which every party except SF ignored (ironically) how do we never mind improve but even maintain public service levels?

K-9

Getting back to the original post FF and FG got 69% between them. That's the reality. Ob viously to a lot those people there is a difference between them.

To me FF won on the costing of their health proposals, FG & Labour just couldn't seem to back them up. The other one was Cowen saying if there was a economic downturn the first thing to go would be reduced tax rates. Public services would be the last to be affected. There seemed to be very little realism in the alliance for change's proposals and no provisions for downturns.

I voted FG because FF has been in power too long.

For all the wastage and plain screw ups of the government I struggle to find any ministers held accountable.

Dubious planning decisions whether influenced by party contributions or plain corruption has left Ireland with a third world infrastructure and haphazard town planning.

Public service workers have been rewarded with overly generous pay and pensions with no modernisation or change of work practices.

The list goes on and on.
FF is a tainted party and it reflects badly on Ireland as a whole voting those clowns back in.

Mick86

Elmo wrote:

I just don't get FG/FF supporters.....

There are only two natural governments to chose from- FF and FG/Labour.

FF has not been able to assume it's normal mantle in 20 years due to the dire government provided by Haughey and his protegés. Possibly it will take as long again for integrity to become the norm in FF once more. FG has begun to recover from the melt down of 2002 whilst Labour is struggling to find itself post-Dick Spring.

The other parties don't really matter. The PDs are just continuity FF. If Haughey had not become party leader in 1979 with all the ensuing carry-on, the PDs would never have existed. In fact Mary Harney was once a Fianna Fáiler and she will be again very shortly as soon as she gets around to consigning the PDs to the dustbin of history.

In short people will vote for those parties likely to form the governmnet that suit them. Outside of FF, FG and Labour there really is no one else.

Incidentally I gave FG my No 1 and Labour my No 2 this time out because I felt that Ireland deserves better than FF's shady, sly and devious form of government.

Chakar wrote:

I don't get why you don't vote for Fianna Fáil.

Charlie Haughey, Liam Lawlor, Ray Burke, Beverly Cooper-Flynn and a Fianna Fáiler who currently cannot adequately explain large deposits into his bank account a few years ago.

Seanies32 wrote:

On Health, FF & PD's have the quickest way of getting 1,000 private beds out of public hospitals and putting them into private hospitals where they should be, thus freeing up beds for public patients.

Rubbish. They've been in power for 10 years and the Health service is a joke. Even if there were 1000 beds available for public patients there would not be sufficient staf available to care for the occupants.

Seanies32 wrote:

The only innovative policy on taxation was FF proposals on PRSI i.e. to make people on over €48,000 pay the same as everybody else.

FF is full of innovative proposals. Do people forget that they've had 10 years in government to implement all these innovations yet all we get is scandal after controversy on top of failure.

mickd wrote:

You have only realised this now. Any wonder why FG haven't been elected to government in over 25 years with bright sparks like you in the party.

FG was in government from 1994 to 1997

mickd

jjbrien wrote:

The topic of this tread is why you choose to vote or support FG. Attacking posters is not a topic. The FF supporters here have still not outlined thier position on why they chose to vote or support FF. They seem to imply negitive posts. FF during the election used this same tactic.

Another reason why I chose to vote FG was when I was badly ill about 4 years ago I approached all the parties FF, Lab, FG and PD's. The only person why was prepared to help me was a FG senator. Without them I possibly would be homeless now. But instead I now have a good job with good pay and can give back to society instead of been a burden on it.

Indeed but spouting nonsense like "FF brought the election" deserves scorn or another gem "FG would rather keep the economy going" what does that mean? The help that you got is to do with the person themselves rather than the fact they are a member of FG.

I vote for FF because the greatest economic achievements of this country in the last 20 years were when FF were in power. Apart from the courage and leadership of Alan Dukes, FG have contributed very little. I would say that its not good for the body politic for one party to be in power for so long but if Enda Kenny is the best that FG can muster then its five more years of FF. I have to say the superior attitude and arrogance of FG is striking you would swear they achieved something.

Breezer

Seanies32 wrote:

If you think FF have done nothing positive well then what's the point in preaching to the converted?

Smoking ban, minimum wage, no tax on minimum wage, record low unemployment levels...........

I'll agree the smoking ban was impressive. Fianna Fáil stuck to its guns and didn't give in to pressure from the vintners. Of course, its also sticking to its guns on decentralisation and not giving in to pressure from civil servants and the general public who can't see the point.

This government is fond of reminding us of its achievements on reducing unemployment from around 10% to around 4%. They usually forget to mention that the Rainbow reduced it from around 15% to around 10% before the Celtic Tiger took off.

miju

mickd wrote:

I vote for FF because the greatest economic achievements of this country in the last 20 years were when FF were in power.

and was it FF who lay the foundations for this "economic success" they have luckily been in power through or was it someone else :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

jjbrien

miju wrote:

and was it FF who lay the foundations for this "economic success" they have luckily been in power through or was it someone else :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Ahh I think not. FF supporters have very short memories. Quote from wikpedia about the rainbow goverment from 1994-1997

This Government's first policy initiative was the introduction of divorce which was ratified in a referendum by a narrow majority. The Government also oversaw the first period of unprecedented economic growth, job creation on a massive scale and Ireland's first budget surplus in over twenty years.

K-9

Ah, come on here folks. There's a serious ABFF and a rose tinted glass look at the rainbow here. As the greens called the alliance for ABFF they where FF Lite. Thats a party who was your prospective coalition partners not FF Supporters.
Look, there's a lot of anti FF spile here based on no substance, just like the alliances manifesto.

First of all:

jjbrien wrote:

Increased vat on esb/gas bills from 13.5% to 21%.

WTF? Disinformation, what did ABFF accuse Cowen off ? No party even FF would countenance this. Facts do seem to be a problem for the ABFF.

People are being asked to outline what FF have done and haven't done too......

ronoc wrote:

I voted FG because FF has been in power too long.

For all the wastage and plain screw ups of the government I struggle to find any ministers held accountable.

I take your point on wastage/screw ups but there is a lot less in the last 2/3 years. Road contracts are now delivered often below budget and before time. I believe these contracts more than Enda's contract which would have seen him resigning in 5 years time. What Govt. delivers on every promise? Govt. involves decisions and choices when the need arises. As Cowen said when questioned, if an economic downturn occurs, tax cuts are the first to go, public services the last. FG/Lab ignored this. Sure we have Enda's contract, it will never happen

FF being in power too long is not a good enough reason to vote them out, the electorate rejected ABFF and FF Lite. Maybe if they had radical differences with FF they might have fared better. And before people say FF got only 42% well PD's got 2 and SF, who where considering FF and nobody else got 6 so that's at least 50%. SF where considering supporting FF for their own reasons , not FF considering SF support.

Mike86 wrote:

FF has not been able to assume it's normal mantle in 20 years due to the dire government provided by Haughey and his protegés. Possibly it will take as long again for integrity to become the norm in FF once more. FG has begun to recover from the melt down of 2002 whilst Labour is struggling to find itself post-Dick Spring.
The other parties don't really matter. The PDs are just continuity FF. If Haughey had not become party leader in 1979 with all the ensuing carry-on, the PDs would never have existed. In fact Mary Harney was once a Fianna Fáiler and she will be again very shortly as soon as she gets around to consigning the PDs to the dustbin of history.

Even die hard FF'ers and Bertie accept an overall majority is extremely unlikely though have got closer than anybody would have expected this time. The only way was up for FG in a competitive election and still they and Lab where 4% behind them. I would have expected with FF being 10 years in power that they should have been equal.

On the PD's thats irrelevant how they where formed. They have been in Govt for not that much shorter than FG! and in a much shorter existence.

Mike86 wrote:

Rubbish. They've been in power for 10 years and the Health service is a joke. Even if there were 1000 beds available for public patients there would not be sufficient staf available to care for the occupants.
FF is full of innovative proposals. Do people forget that they've had 10 years in government to implement all these innovations yet all we get is scandal after controversy on top of failure.

Point taken but the alliance for ABFF was giving us 2,300 and the same finance problems apply.

On tax FF where the only party to actually propose a tax increase, that is people paying PRSI on earnings over €48,000 same as everybody else. Compare that to Labour.

Look, if you can't see the tax changes that have occurred in the last 10 years when the party you gave your No.2 to, could, and where converted to FF/PD policy well......why did you give them a No.2.

Maybe their policy of giving free 3rd level education to the upper classes is a vote for a fairer society. It's so ingrained in Irish society now God forbid the uproar from the Times if it was even suggested that it was changed to favour the socially disadvantaged who don't take 3rd level as granted.

Mike86 wrote:

FG was in government from 1994 to 1997

But not after an election. 1982 was the last time they where elected and even then they had less than FF.

MikeD wrote:

I vote for FF because the greatest economic achievements of this country in the last 20 years were when FF were in power. Apart from the courage and leadership of Alan Dukes, FG have contributed very little. I would say that its not good for the body politic for one party to be in power for so long but if Enda Kenny is the best that FG can muster then its five more years of FF. I have to say the superior attitude and arrogance of FG is striking you would swear they achieved something.

Posters on this board say these where all achieved in 3 out of the 20 years and FF did nothing in 17 of them. In fact FG/Lab would say that it all started under them.
Fair play to Dukes but don't forget McSharry who threatened to resign from a minority Govt. unless we got a grip with our nearly bankrupt finances which where inherited from Dukes/Bruton and yes Haughey.

Look posters on this board have accused Cowen etc. of arrogance.

"Dream on baby" was the most arrogant line of a competitive, open election. Maybe FG took the election for granted, hence the smugness in the last week, whereas FF actually looked at their policies?

breezer wrote:

This government is fond of reminding us of its achievements on reducing unemployment from around 10% to around 4%. They usually forget to mention that the Rainbow reduced it from around 15% to around 10% before the Celtic Tiger took off.

What about how McSharry and Reynolds and yes Ahern, who recovered us from near bankruptcy so the rainbow was in a position to balance the books. Jesus I know you's would like to obliterate FF from politics, but they did the state some service.

miju wrote:

and was it FF who lay the foundations for this "economic success" they have luckily been in power through or was it someone else

Well the Rainbow benefited from the foundations laid before that and on and on and on! My God, the arrogance, we owe it all to just 18 (was it even that?) of Govt. out of 85 years!

And I see Wikpedia have ignored the transformation from a failed, bankrupt economy where yes, FF accepted emigration, and everybody else did but wouldn't say it.

Unfortunately previous FF govts. couldn't even dream of budget surpluses, they where to busy paying back our national debt and keeping the World Bank foreclosing on our debt. It's a pity Bono wasn't so vocal on 3rd world debt 20 years ago, we would have been direct beneficiaries.

If FG/lab want to remind us of 10/13 years ago its fair to remind people of what they inherited.

Look FF have been in Govt. for, I'm doing a rough count here, 57 of the llast 75 years. When was the last period of unprecedented growth, oh yeah, Lemass. FG/Lab, if we want to go back in history, have been known to be slump coalitions in their short period in office.

Smugness, that was FG's preserve this time, FF where busy increasing support in the last week. Oh yeah, thats the norm as well, FF lose support in the last few days, well that was another thing proved wrong iin this election!

K-9

I'm exhausted after all that! But listen if FG don't get in the next time after 23/25 years in Govt. you can stop calling this a democracy, and I'll agree with FG/Lab voters

Then FF will be the natural party of Govt. FACT!

If Ireland can't have a proper opposition after 23/25 years well we might as well have one party govt., which I don't agree, either FF or FG.

cm2000

Seanies32 wrote:

I'm exhausted after all that! But listen if FG don't get in the next time after 23/25 years in Govt. you can stop calling this a democracy, and I'll agree with FG/Lab voters

Then FF will be the natural party of Govt. FACT!

If Ireland can't have a proper opposition after 23/25 years well we might as well have one party govt., which I don't agree, either FF or FG.

IT IS democracy at work. people dont want a change. when they do we will have a change. "if it aint broke, dont fix it". until it hits our pockets, people dont care as much but thats democracy at work. if everyone was broke, living in squallar then it would change but we live in a middle class country and we're not risking it.

Crash

I voted for an alternative government, and under the following ideals: Education and health.

Primarily, I never, EVER want to deal with Mary Hanafin as minister for education ever again. anyone who's willing to ignore the third level funding crisis that does exist, and refuse to answer questions directly asked to her by students, does not deserve her vote and as such does not deserve support for her party. Secondly the lack of any support for students in term of support for funding for college health services was distinctly lacking in all parties, under which circumstances I had to remove that from my views.

To all who want to state that i'm just being a filthy student, go ahead. but you know what, sometimes we're needed. and we have a gigantic third level funding crisis that if you look at the accounts is awful, and we need a government who can fix that, not one who's ignored it. I'm nearly finished the sytem - 1 year more and i'm out of here. What I do want is to be able to turn around in five years, look back at my college and see graduates of the same level coming out - in fact they should be of a higher level. anything less is a disgrace, and should be treated as such.

jjbrien

jjbrien wrote:

Increased vat on esb/gas bills from 13.5% to 21%.

FG are in favor to direct taxation and not by stealth.

Clearly you don't pay either of these as the rate is 13.5% not 21%


While I'm here,if I see any more jib from any poster here towards another,in this thread or another,I'll dole out one of my EXTRA SPECIAL one month bans.

Elmo

Just to be clear on VAT

The ESB, Bord Gais and Airtricity charge 13.5% VAT.

To be totally clear on VAT, in Ireland we have 3 bands

0% generally on food and Childrens' shoe/clothes (confectionary and coffee @ 21%, their are other non-esential foods that are also charged @21%)
13.5% on utilities (as above)
21% on holidays, electrical goods etc.

Don't mention Childrens' shoes to FG, they joked about it in the 1980's (no one else found it funny).

What I don't see and what I still amn't getting from FG/FF supports is the difference between both parties.

I have to agree with the Greens FG are FF Lite.

Ok I support the Greens.

Also to rephrase the inital question:-

In 2007 you had

44 green camdidates
50 labour candidates
27 pd candidates
41 Sinn Fein candidates

Why not vote as you see fit rather then along party lines. Espically when party lines aren't all that far apart.

Ruen

Elmo wrote:

I was reading somewhere that one FF supporter would like Mary Harney to be in their party, if you support Mary Harney then surely you could give up the old party ties (civil war ties) and vote PD, if that's what you want.

Of course you could, the PD's are just FF in disguise. They're practically interchangeable.

Breezer

Elmo wrote:

Also to rephrase the inital question:-

In 2007 you had

44 green camdidates
50 labour candidates
27 pd candidates
41 Sinn Fein candidates

Why not vote as you see fit rather then along party lines. Espically when party lines aren't all that far apart.

Because realistically, either Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael are going to lead every government in this country for the foreseeable future. Whether we like it or not it's a choice between one or the other, and then it's just a question of who makes up the rest of the coalition. Since we can give several preferences, people would tend to give them to one or the other in order to try influence the make-up of the government, even if they may have given their number one to a smaller party. Pre-election pacts add to this.

There is very little difference between the parties' policies. The difference at the moment seems to be a perceived lack of moral integrity and a perceived complacency among Fianna Fáil, versus a perceived lack of experience and realism among Fine Gael.

jjbrien

Tristrame wrote:

Clearly you don't pay either of these as the rate is 13.5% not 21%


While I'm here,if I see any more jib from any poster here towards another,in this thread or another,I'll dole out one of my EXTRA SPECIAL one month bans.

Ok I stand corrected on the vat on esb and gas I do pay these I don’t usually look at the vat.

But thanks to FF they put a standing charge on my gas bill of 45.31 in the last 2 months my bill was only 88 euro meaning more than half was FF standing charge. A little unfair I think.

I think we live in a fantastic country. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. And I think FF and FG contributed far more to this than the miscellaneous smaller parties that have done little or nothing to get us to where we are today, though the PDs and Labour can pat themselves on the back more so than others. As for distinguishing, as I have said many times it's the North. FF prioritise it, always have. And that's important to me, I don't expect others to have the same feelings.

Elmo

I think we live in a fantastic country. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. And I think FF and FG contributed far more to this than the miscellaneous smaller parties that have done little or nothing to get us to where we are today, though the PDs and Labour can pat themselves on the back more so than others. As for distinguishing, as I have said many times it's the North. FF prioritise it, always have. And that's important to me, I don't expect others to have the same feelings.

But surely voters aren't giving other parties a chance.

Even here we see that most consider Labour a small party yet they had 10 less TDs then FG had in the 29th dail. I find it a problem with Labour that they too tend to see themselfs as a smaller party. While not a supporter of Labour, I do feel that they should have had more candidates, if they want to be taken seriously as a "big" party.

The PDs and Labour are the only two "smaller" parties to be in government out of the current crop of small parties.

Surely CnaP and other extinct parties can also pat themself on the back for propping up FG and FF.

This idea of experience is rubbish, out of all of the Ministers from the 29th and 30th who many had a portfolio in previous governments?

Húrin

Mick86 wrote:

FG was in government from 1994 to 1997

They didn't get there by election.

mickd wrote:

I vote for FF because the greatest economic achievements of this country in the last 20 years were when FF were in power. Apart from the courage and leadership of Alan Dukes, FG have contributed very little.

For a hundred thousand or more Irish young people, FG/Labour have made a huge contribution, namely the free fees scheme.

Why vote for FF for the economy when you can vote PD? They deserve much more credit than many voters give them. FF are the bread; PDs are the flavour.

Collie D

Seanies32 wrote:

And before people say FF got only 42% well PD's got 2 and SF, who where considering FF and nobody else got 6 so that's at least 50%. SF where considering supporting FF for their own reasons , not FF considering SF support.

Now that's a bizarre statement to make. So a vote for Sinn Fén was a vote for Fianna Fáil? :rolleyes:

K-9

Collie D wrote:

Now that's a bizarre statement to make. So a vote for Sinn Fén was a vote for Fianna Fáil? :rolleyes:

Well, did you listen to Adams in the days before the election? They would consider supporting FF but not FG.

It's using the same logic as the Greens would be a vote for the alliance if the alliance got in, they did run on a ABFF policy.

I'm not saying a vote for SF was wholely for FF but you have to consider the respective parties position on Govt. which was for their own reasons.

H&#250 wrote: »

For a hundred thousand or more Irish young people, FG/Labour have made a huge contribution, namely the free fees scheme.
Why vote for FF for the economy when you can vote PD? They deserve much more credit than many voters give them. FF are the bread; PDs are the flavour.

Ah yeah, that old chestnut, Free fees for the middle and upper classes and just the status quo for the disadvantaged.

Far better than Harney's (with FF support) introduction of the minimum wage and Cowen removing it from tax and PRSI, things that FG/Lab could only dream about doing 10 years ago.

Elmo

Far better than Harney's (with FF support) introduction of the minimum wage and Cowen removing it from tax and PRSI, things that FG/Lab could only dream about doing 10 years ago.

FF/Lab government take over in 1992, significant in terms of the Northern Irish Peace Process, while also taking charge of a dreadful economy from the FF/PD government.
FG/Lab/DL enter government in 1994 (as Lab leaves the FF government, they can do this as FG/LAB/DL have been elected in 1992). FG/Lab/DL start Free Education and End their term in office with Irelands first Surplus, the issuing of the first telecoms contract (I know issues still surround that) and a major decrease in the Unemployment rate.
FF/PD take over the running of the country just as the Celtic Tiger begins. Re-introduction of 3rd level fees through an administration fee which continues to increase year on year.

Ah yeah, that old chestnut, Free fees for the middle and upper classes and just the status quo for the disadvantaged.

And the FF/PD government's have had 10 years to help the disadvantaged in Ireland. You cann't blame the FG/Lab government they have been out of government a long time since that was introduced.

Far better than Harney's (with FF support) introduction of the minimum wage and Cowen removing it from tax and PRSI, things that FG/Lab could only dream about doing 10 years ago.

I am sure they where working towards this hence the surplus after a 5 year government.

mickd

Elmo wrote:

FF/Lab government take over in 1992, significant in terms of the Northern Irish Peace Process, while also taking charge of a dreadful economy from the FF/PD government.
FG/Lab/DL enter government in 1994 (as Lab leaves the FF government, they can do this as FG/LAB/DL have been elected in 1992). FG/Lab/DL start Free Education and End their term in office with Irelands first Surplus, the issuing of the first telecoms contract (I know issues still surround that) and a major decrease in the Unemployment rate.
FF/PD take over the running of the country just as the Celtic Tiger begins. Re-introduction of 3rd level fees through an administration fee which continues to increase year on year.

I am sure they where working towards this hence the surplus after a 5 year government.

Niamh Breathnach abolishing third level fees was nothing more than a sop to the middle class.The majority of low income students would of have their fees paid as part of the local authority grant. FG/Lab/DL were carrying on economic policies from previous FF administrations. FF were responsible for social partnership and end to strikes, Britain could have learnt a thing from us in how to handle industrial relations. No economic entity was going to invest money in a country were strikes were happening everyday. In 1992 Albert Reyonlds returned from an EU summit with €7.6 billion in EU structural funds which kickstarted the celtic tiger. This is why Labour went into government with FF because time and time again FF demonstrated a 'can-do' attitude and achieved the biggest single injection of capital in the history of this state. With regard to Northern Ireland Dick Spring a politican that I have little time for made one telling observation "Until the leader of the Northern Unionists sits down with the leader of Fianna Fail, Northern Ireland will remain unsolved" Says it all really

oscarBravo

H&#250 wrote: »

They didn't get there by election.

No? Which members of that government weren't elected?

Elmo

With regard to Northern Ireland Dick Spring a politican that I have little time for made one telling observation "Until the leader of the Northern Unionists sits down with the leader of Fianna Fail, Northern Ireland will remain unsolved" Says it all really

I would consider Dick Spring as Foreign Affairs minister to have be very effective with the Northern Ireland Peace process I always felt that he held FF back while pushing FG forward in terms of Northern Ireland.

It's not like the PD's where ever very interested in NI

Perhaps now that Ian Pasiley has sat down with Bertie Ahern the problem has been solved.

The majority of low income students would of have their fees paid as part of the local authority grant.

Perhaps her reasoning was to let students who don't get the grant the ablity to go to college. College fees may have stopped them going to college.

But the means test for college grants needs to be changed but since then nothing has been done.

FG/Lab/DL were carrying on economic policies from previous FF administrations.

All administrations will follow previous administration policies. E.G. CnaP's Mother and Child Scheme was brought forward by FF and Noel Browne implement serveral beds already available through the FF administration. I know that this is going back in History.

No radical changes would occur should FG lead a government.

They didn't get there by election.

All elected. Just as Bertie was planning a grand coalition with the Greens, PDs and Indos so that if the Greens got cold feet half way through the 30th Dail the government could stay on.

Should the PDs leave government this time round FF can always approach Labour to continue in Government.

mickd

Elmo wrote:

I would consider Dick Spring as Foreign Affairs minister to have be very effective with the Northern Ireland Peace process I always felt that he held FF back while pushing FG forward in terms of Northern Ireland.

Indeed but I was referring to his whole political career. He was Tanaiste in 83-87 where the national debt was doubled spending money we didn't have. Spring and Barry Desmond were the curl pits.This is the man who wanted to nationalise the banks, yet has got nice an cushy with none executive directorships since leaving politics. Had a keen intellect but should never have been tanaiste. The inablilty of the first FG/Lab to function condemned people to a life of misery in eighties Ireland and was a disgrace for which the principle leaders Spring & Fitzgearld were never called to account

Perhaps now that Ian Pasiley has sat down with Bertie Ahern the problem has been solved.

Exactly

Perhaps her reasoning was to let students who don't get the grant the ability to go to college. College fees may have stopped them going to college.

But the means test for college grants needs to be changed but since then nothing has been done.

You have a point there.

All administrations will follow previous administration policies. E.G. CnaP's Mother and Child Scheme was brought forward by FF and Noel Browne implement serveral beds already available through the FF administration. I know that this is going back in History.

No radical changes would occur should FG lead a government.

Not so 1987 was a radical departure from previous adminstrations,albeit the world bank were calling the shots if FG/Lab are so good why didn't they introduce social partnership and fiscal rectitude which was the term used at the time? There is no way I would trust FG to protect our low corporation tax in the face of EU harmonisation. They are naive, you need the cute hoorism of FF if your batting for Ireland abroad.

Should the PDs leave government this time round FF can always approach Labour to continue in Government.

Why would they possibly do that, there is more chance of them joining FF

K-9

Elmo wrote:

FF/Lab government take over in 1992, significant in terms of the Northern Irish Peace Process, while also taking charge of a dreadful economy from the FF/PD government.

The Downings Street agreement was highly significant, unfortunately the Rainbows record was not quite as good.

The dreadful economy, surely you mean the one McSharry took over in 87 from FG/Lab. FF then went about reducing criminally high tax rates and a crippling national debt and reducing borrowing requirements. That probably helped the Rainbow in delivering that famous surplus we here so much about, ignoring income tax cuts (just 1%)

Elmo wrote:

FG/Lab/DL enter government in 1994 (as Lab leaves the FF government, they can do this as FG/LAB/DL have been elected in 1992).

So why didn't they go into Govt. with the Rainbow originally if that was the elected Govt.?

elmo wrote:

FG/Lab/DL start Free Education and End their term in office with Irelands first Surplus, the issuing of the first telecoms contract (I know issues still surround that) and a major decrease in the Unemployment rate.

Again, free education for the middle/upper classes. They did nothing for the disadvantaged.Inherited a health economy so of course they had the choice of delivering a surplus.

elmo wrote:

And the FF/PD government's have had 10 years to help the disadvantaged in Ireland. You cann't blame the FG/Lab government they have been out of government a long time since that was introduced.

Who introduced the minimum wage and a third of the workforce out of the tax and PRSI net. Does FG/Lab not recognise this helps the disadvantaged and are they going to go back on these measures?

elmo wrote:

I am sure they where working towards this hence the surplus after a 5 year government.

They're record on the surplus is of course good, there record on tax cuts isn't so they where a long way off these measures.

K-9

mickd wrote:

FG/Lab/DL were carrying on economic policies from previous FF administrations.

They forgot about the tax cuts though.

mickd wrote:

"Until the leader of the Northern Unionists sits down with the leader of Fianna Fail, Northern Ireland will remain unsolved" Says it all really

John Bruton's record on the North was poor.

elmo wrote:

It's not like the PD's where ever very interested in NI

Perhaps now that Ian Pasiley has sat down with Bertie Ahern the problem has been solved.

McDowell played an important part over IRA criminality.

elmo wrote:

All administrations will follow previous administration policies.

Not necessarily. Yes, Lynch and Haughey copied the first Govt. in Ireland to borrow, FG & Lab. FF with McSharry changed the idea that Ireland had to borrow and introduced cutbacks to reduce debt.

Roanmore

Seanies32 wrote:

So why didn't they go into Govt. with the Rainbow originally if that was the elected Govt.?

This alliance was just short after the election in 1992 but subsequent bi-elections allowed it to happen. I think this is called democracy. That Dail had 7 bi-elections.