Tribunal Costs

narommy

Is it just me or do others agree that it is irrelevant whether that Mahon Tribunal costs €300m or €1,000m ................it is still a scandulous waste of money. (So much so that there should be an investigation into it:rolleyes: )

Really it is a complete waste. What are they going to produce at the end of it .............. a report that would run into several several thousand pages that f all people will have any interest in and is highly unlikely to have any positive effects on the future of this country or its population.

300m would go a long way to helping the disabled people that were on the radio this morning. Much more beneficial than going straight into the hands of Barristers and a smug looking judge full of his own importance.

The Mahon tribunal should told that once the Quarryvale is concluded that's the end of it. I would gladly vote in favour of a referendum to abolish it

Glenbhoy

it's not all one way - firstly, probably half of that money goes straight back to the revenue in the form of taxes, secondly, the revenue reckon they've taken in 1bn in extra revenue from investigations prompted by tribunals.

El Stuntman

narommy wrote:

a report that would run into several several thousand pages....... is highly unlikely to have any positive effects on the future of this country or its population.

I think that would have lots of positive effects for this country - the main one being that the culture of corruption that underpinned politics in this country for so long will have been exposed, (some of) the perpetrators disgraced (Haughey, Lowry, Burke, Lawlor with more to come) and (most importantly) we LEARN from this and put in place a political and social culture where it cannot happen again

I would consider that money well spent without even taking into account all of the extra cash the Revenue has taken in as a direct result of Tribunal investigations

Villain

The Laywers are overpaid but you need to ask FF and Charlie McCreevy why, they gave them a nice big increase then they said they were going to reduce their earnings and the lawyers kicked up a fuss so they delayed the reduction. As stated before me if nothing else the tribunal has exposed some corruption people in politics might think before they carry out corrupt dealings in the future.

narommy

Ok,

Thanks for the replys but I am standing firm in my view.


Glenbhoy
It is mostly one way as the people on the very high incomes of 200k+ pay SFA in taxes.
In relation to the additional 1billion in taxes. Spend a billion to recover a billion. That's ridiculous. So to is 300m to get a billion. If the revenue were doing their job they would have uncovered these at a much lesser cost to the regular taxpayer. One of the fundamental policies in taxation is efficency.

El Stuntman
To add insult to injury the revenue cannot use information gathered by tribunals to claim taxes. I think at this stage the revenue have enought leads to do their job.
I think it is beyond doubt at this stage that there was(is?) corruption in Irish society but I think we have learned enough to call a halt after the current module is finished and put in place safe guards to ensure that the same level of corruption does not re occur.
I think that the money could be much better spend allowing disabled people to have dignity and independance. Or improving health and education. Or buying Buses

Irish1
The way the legal system works I do not believe that the costs could have be significantly reduced. Every body can have as much legal representation as they want and the state is more that likely going to pay for it. And who is deciding on whether costs are paid........ A Judge/Taxing Master both of whom would have strong professional (personal?) links with the people (Barristers) who will loose out if their clients are not awarded costs............It's a gravy train.


Basically my point is that the work of the tribunals to date has been effective in addressing the issues raised by the replys and to carry it on for another €500m will not achieve much more benefit.

Once Quarryvale is reviewed that should be the end of it. Any further leads that come out of that should be reviewed by enquiry and the reports on same should be circulated end of story.



ps I did vote FF and you will notice that I have not called for the current module to be scraped

Villain

My point was the government set the rates of pay for the legal professionals, I agree that the decision of who gets legal reprsentation is very open but Charlie McCreevy approved a big rise for those lega professionals but then FF decided to roll back on that but were challenged and folded under that challenge for a while anyway, the Government could reduce the fee's.

sceptre

narommy wrote:

So to is 300m to get a billion. If the revenue were doing their job they would have uncovered these at a much lesser cost to the regular taxpayer. One of the fundamental policies in taxation is efficency.

Regardless of whether they could or should have uncovered the income of these individuals it's still 700 million profit if the cost is 300m or even money if it's a billion and we get to find out who's been milking the common people by abusing their positions along the way. Personally I'm quite interested in the Ahern revelations.

Glenbhoy

narommy wrote:

Glenbhoy
It is mostly one way as the people on the very high incomes of 200k+ pay SFA in taxes.
In relation to the additional 1billion in taxes. Spend a billion to recover a billion. That's ridiculous. So to is 300m to get a billion. If the revenue were doing their job they would have uncovered these at a much lesser cost to the regular taxpayer. One of the fundamental policies in taxation is efficency.

Why are you mentioning 1bn? Your first point re high incomes will not apply to tribunal barristers, they will not be able to manipulate their incomes in the way that most self-employed persons will, as they are paid directly by the state. Bar pensions, and possibly some property tax breaks, there's probably very little they can do. Even if there were, I'm sure you're aware as to why exactly tax incentives exist - ie to help provide investment in areas that would not otherwise receive said investment, thus creating jobs in that locale etc.

narommy wrote:

El Stuntman
To add insult to injury the revenue cannot use information gathered by tribunals to claim taxes. I think at this stage the revenue have enought leads to do their job.

I don't understand what you're saying here - but I know that the revenue can and do use info from tribunals for tax matters - one only has to look at our taoiseach - didn't he say 2 weeks ago that he was in negotiations with the revenue over his 'loans:) '

narommy wrote:

Irish1
The way the legal system works I do not believe that the costs could have be significantly reduced. Every body can have as much legal representation as they want and the state is more that likely going to pay for it. And who is deciding on whether costs are paid........ A Judge/Taxing Master both of whom would have strong professional (personal?) links with the people (Barristers) who will loose out if their clients are not awarded costs............It's a gravy train.

How could costs have been reduced? Perhaps, we shouldn't allow everyone a defence? Also, you are forgetting that the tribunals' main weapon has and will be to deny cost to people who have obstructed it, look at Mahon and the Bailey's etc.
You have a point though, it would have been better to have some sort of commission of inquiry than a full blown tribunal - the problem with the tribunal, is that it is too keen to be seen to be fair - that has led to the relentless delays, perhaps informal initial enquiries of some sort would have been better.

narommy wrote:

Basically my point is that the work of the tribunals to date has been effective in addressing the issues raised by the replys and to carry it on for another €500m will not achieve much more benefit.

What do you mean about the 500M?? Do you think Mahon was lying when he said that the total final cost of his tribunal will be no more than 300M - presumably 90% of which has already been incurred? (estimated to take 11yrs in total, 10 of which are already gone).

gandalf

Above all if this tribunal helps to end or lower the level in corruption then the cost is worth it. Have a look around this country and especially at Dublin and look at the absolute misery that alot of citizens are going through because of a planning process that was driven by the greed and avarice of a few with their corrupt cronies.

I am sure you are aware of the 4 billion the previous government wasted on botched projects and over runs. I am sure you are equally as disguisted by these as well.

El Stuntman

gandalf wrote:

Above all if this tribunal helps to end or lower the level in corruption then the cost is worth it. Have a look around this country and especially at Dublin and look at the absolute misery that alot of citizens are going through because of a planning process that was driven by the greed and avarice of a few with their corrupt cronies.

I am sure you are aware of the 4 billion the previous government wasted on botched projects and over runs. I am sure you are equally as disguisted by these as well.

very good points, wp!

gandalf

Hmmm looks like narommys outrage has abated.......

OTK

The Moriarty and Mahon tribunal have earned huge revenues for the state. Other than the direct income that came from the tax settlements and CAB seizures, Ansbacher settlements, bogus non-resident accounts and so on, the tribunals (combined with lower tax rates) convinced many people that tax evasion was no longer worth it. The risk-reward for not paying tax was altered sufficiently to massively increase compliance with tax laws.

Even CJH paid more than 6m to the revenue plus he had to pay his own legal fees. He and his family may have profited but their name is mud.

The old saying was that nobody ever went to prison in Ireland for tax evasion. This is no longer true and the revenue are clearly far more efficient and confident in their ability to collect where due. With more people paying, we can afford to set rates lower.

Corruption adds to the cost of doing business in a country and scares away inward investment. It may seem like an abstract crime but when the best bidder for a government contract loses out to Jimmy The Stroke and his half-arsed band, the whole country loses out.

Liam Byrne

What is the overall cost to the legal system if ensuring that all criminals are caught, brought to court, jailed (complete with snooker tables so that Jimmy White can come visit :rolleyes: ) and kept off the streets ? Do you propose that we stop doing all that too ?

The issue is that, instead of being jailed, are given State funerals and worshipped and orated by people who should know better.

As soon as tribunals show actual results, and put people in jail and/or make them pay back every penny, as well as maybe confiscate the land/developments that were approved illegally, they'll be well worth it.

McSpud

The Tribunals will not prevent current or future corruption.

We should have a fulltime anti-corruption Unit of the Gardai. This would have statue to investigate & recommend prosecution of politicians, business people, civil servants etc... They jail them in the US all the time.

Is it correct only Charlie Redmond has been jailed for taking bribes?