ruling please

boogey man

1/2 live cash game.

9 players


stacks range from 250 -1200 apart from CO who has 41euro.

I am on the button the whole table has limped for 2.
I raise 18 making it 20, 3 callers.
CO reraises all in for 39 euro.
Is this a raise as it is more than double the previous raise(18)
or, is this an under raise as it is less than double the previous bet (20)
Q. CAN I RERAISE

boogey man

sorry forgot to say its NL

bohsman

I still say no. Ireland has always gone by double the previous bet. Also even if someone had topped him up to 40 you still wouldnt be allowed to reraise as the topup doesnt come into play till after all betting has taken place.

ollyk1

Did the CO not go all-in for 41 (39 + 2 from his limp)? If this is the case then its a full raise and betting is reopened. Otherwise what Bohsman said...

5starpool

As above, if he went all in for a total of 39 then you wouldn't be able to reraise, if he made it a total of 41 then you would be as this is more than double the previous bet. Ireland has different rules regarding raise sizes than other places.

mdwexford

olly is right the way im reading it anyway, the bet is 41 so betting is re-opened, no under-raise.

for other situations what Oscar said

bohsman

mdwexford wrote:

olly is right the way im reading it anyway, the bet is 41 so betting is re-opened, no under-raise.

for other situations what Oscar said

I was asked for a ruling on this last night, from what was explained the player was all in for a total of 39. If it is 41 then the betting is of course reopened.

jacQues

boogey man wrote:

stacks range from 250 -1200 apart from CO who has 41euro.
I am on the button the whole table has limped for 2.
I raise 18 making it 20, 3 callers.
CO reraises all in for 39 euro.
Is this a raise as it is more than double the previous raise(18)
or, is this an under raise as it is less than double the previous bet (20)
Q. CAN I RERAISE

CO makes the total bet 41 and since the previous total bet was 20 its a proper raise (needs to be double so 40+). So yes, you can re-raise.

Note that there is a slight difference between Irish rules (double total bet) and international rules (double last bet/raise). Your writing suggests that you are used to international rules (Internet player?) In live games you can easily distinguish between the two for all bets stay out if its Irish rules and the dealer will move previous bets to the pot for international rules (leaving out the raise/calls).

jacQues

john@thenewvic

5starpool wrote:

Ireland has different rules regarding raise sizes than other places.

Where can these be found???
We play double the last bet/raise down here. Maybe thats cos Richard is EPT trained but I was not aware of any Ireland specific rules.

Flipper

This happened to me before in Vienna. Kremser put me straight.

Blinds were 200/400 and UTG made it 1,100. Two callers and I call with 88 in the CO. Surrinder Sunar on the button goes all-in for his last 2,150 and the SB & BB fold. UTG guys then makes it 11,000 and the two callers insta-fold before I get to say that 2,150 is less than double 1,100. I call Kremser over for a ruling but he tells me that International rules say that "you have the right to raise the same amount as the raiser before you raised" ie here, I could make it (1,100 - 400) another 700 and raise to 1,800 total. I was odd but showed my 88 while mucking. I wanted to play a big pot with the fish as we were the two big stacks at the table. Flop was 88TQx!!! and Sunar had TT and the UTG kid had QQ! Sick. Would have got his whole stack and had 70k when the avg was 20k

PokerPissTaker

I have a feeling international tournament rules may differ from Irish cash games rules But I'd have to ring Phil Ivey and get him to ask Chris Ferguson to be sure

Flushdraw

JPs games are the only regular tournaments i've played in where he uses the international rules. Caused some confusion during his last game when the dealer didnt even know the rules. I had to call JP over because i was made to look like an idiot by the dealer and 2 others telling me i was talking cr@p!

NickyOD

It's not an under raise depending on the house rules. The Irish double the total the bet rule is unique to Ireland, parts of France and UK. It's wrong IMO and isn't actually the rule in all Irish casinos.

Tar.Aldarion

So in what casee woulldit be an underraise?
We have always played this as an underraise.

RoundTower

NickyOD wrote:

It's not an under raise depending on the house rules. The Irish double the total the bet rule is unique to Ireland, parts of France and UK. It's wrong IMO and isn't actually the rule in all Irish casinos.

this post is wrong and bohsman is right.

NickyOD

RoundTower wrote:

this post is wrong and bohsman is right.

troll!

BIG-SLICK-POKER

Double the last bet not double the last raise is the bet here .... Under raise rule applys ...... I undestand that u raised 18 but your total bet was 20 and thats the rule ... so no he could not re - raise but if someone had givin him €1 to make €40 instead of €39 it up , there could have been fireworks , I spoke to Oscar , Mc clean ,Graham and 2 others on this to confirm my ruling and we all agree

RoundTower

nah if someone gives him e1 it shouldn't change anything, it is too open to abuse otherwise.

BIG-SLICK-POKER

RoundTower wrote:

nah if someone gives him e1 it shouldn't change anything, it is too open to abuse otherwise.

If someone gives him €1 it opens the re raise from the initial Raiser

Mellor

BIG-SLICK-POKER wrote:

If someone gives him €1 it opens the re raise from the initial Raiser

I think RT point was if he had an additional €1 it would of been open.
But if somebody topped him up it shouldn't apply, say the OP had of topped him up, the betting would of been open for him and he could of shoved, this completely bypasses the rule and is open to abuse.
I think oscar said earlier that topping up offically takes place after all action.

5starpool

BIG-SLICK-POKER wrote:

If someone gives him €1 it opens the re raise from the initial Raiser

Well it shouldn't. I know in the Fitz it doesn't.

boogey man

mistake, just checked he was all in for a total of 39 inc blinds not 41 sorry.

so this means in ireland it would be an under raise but anywhere else in the world it wouldnt.
or is it just dependent on house rules

I think casinos/card clubs should have this clearly stated in there rules as it can and has caused much confusion.

john@thenewvic

I think boogey there will be times when you walk into this as a house rule but it is certainly not some accepted "Irish Rule" in any club worth its salt.;) To the best of my knowledge the "it must be double rule" was introduced by tourny organisers working with inexperienced dealers and instead of trying to explain the actual rule they just went with "it must be double" for the sake of an easy life. In our wonderful Irish way we latched on the easier rule and basically anyone who learned their poker playing in the pubs, hotels and clubs around Ireland, which is us lot I reckon, were told that was the rule. Properly trained dealers, supervisors and organisers apply the correct rule....those of us who sort of picked things up as we went along cling to the "Double" rule for ould times sake.:D

mdwexford

i thought it was double the last bet in every card room in dublin???

i dont play much live cash so maybe im mistaken

Macspower

A top up doesn't reopen the betting in the SE anyway. had a ruling on it one night. v similar I bet 50 guy goes all in for 97 someone tops him and there is a caller and I want to re-raise..... wasn't allowed.. which is right IMO

Goodluck2me

BIG-SLICK-POKER wrote:

If someone gives him €1 it opens the re raise from the initial Raiser

thats a flawed rule imo. its open to abuse, it could be worth the raisers while to top him up do he can raise more.

Tar.Aldarion

I can't believe that happens anywhere.

DeVore

Topping up cannot affect the game because technically its not on (its chip dumping on a small scale). Of course, we turn a blind eye to it because it makes the dealers job easier but its madness to say it could reopen the betting. I'm thinking of a word that starts with E


and ends with xploitable.

DeV.

carfax

DeVore wrote:

I'm thinking of a word that starts with E


and ends with xploitable.

DeV.

ver gud