Am I hallucinating?

lola_run

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=NEWS-qqqs=news-qqqid=23958-qqqx=1.asp

Forming a governement with the PDs - hey the Greens, Fianna Gael and Labour got more votes than them! I had to laugh when I read this article!!

And the independents! LOL

The Irish political system is really weird. Surely if no one party gets a majority vote, then the parties with the two biggest votes should go into power together, no?
After all they should respect what the people voted, in this case Fianna FAIL AND Fianna Gael.

Am I alone out there in thinking that the Irish political system is illogical?

It's so funny that Fianna Fail actually won. The power of the media, newspaper articles and television and radio debates favouring Labour and Fine Gael, not to mention the amount of media coverage given to the Greens.

I'm Irish myself, but I'm ashamaed that the Irish cannot do what they really believe... we just seem to complain and let ourselves be won over by smiling and charming personalities. Will we ever learn to vote for policies and not just people? Maybe one of the reasons they don't allow expats to vote is because we have a sense of objectivity about the country.

What Ireland needed was Labour and the Greens and we all know it.
But it's too late now!

Here's to another five years of american style capitalist politics.

Okay... rant over! ;-)

Do I have any supporters? ;-)

GTC

Agreed in full. I don't like FF, because of their shameful stupidity and incompetence. I don't like FG, Labour or any other party. I wanted change, before Bertie derails the whole country. My friend, the economy is set to collapse into itself before 6-8 months if the OECD and the media in general are correct.

fobster

People might have wanted change but when the other option wasn't to their liking they just stuck with what they knew best imo.

lola_run

fobster wrote:

People might have wanted change but when the other option wasn't to their liking they just stuck with what they knew best imo.

Well, we'll never make progress in the areas we need to if no risks are taken.

The Greens were the most credible party in these elections. They understand the real issues and had the most sensible budget.

Please Irish people, protest against Bertie's wish to form alliance with PDs!!!!! The PDs are dead. What planet is this crook Bertie living on at all at all?

John R

lola_run wrote:

Am I alone out there in thinking that the Irish political system is illogical?

It is about as good as you are going to get.

If we had a UK style system FF would now have a huge majority of Dail seats. Remember Tony Blair's Labour won a significant majority in 2005 with only 36% of the popular vote across the country.

johnnyrotten

Another anti-good government rant

Jackz

Yup, crooks are people who have been proved guilty of crime in a court of law.

lola_run

lola_run wrote:

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=NEWS-qqqs=news-qqqid=23958-qqqx=1.asp

The Irish political system is really weird. Surely if no one party gets a majority vote, then the parties with the two biggest votes should go into power together, no?
After all they should respect what the people voted, in this case Fianna FAIL AND Fianna Gael.

No no no. I can't even begin to explain why this doesn't happen.

Suffice it to say different policies, different support bases, different idiologies.

ApeXaviour

lola_run wrote:

The Greens were the most credible party in these elections. They understand the real issues

lmao!

Fearmongering with inaccurate anti-nuclear propaganda and hence intransigent policies. I say that as a physicist. If you're green, at least be pragmatic. /rant

John R

ronoc wrote:

No no no. I can't even begin to explain why this doesn't happen.

Suffice it to say different policies, different support bases, different idiologies.

Different support bases, fair enough. But as for policies and ideologies FF and FG are about as close as two parties can get without merging.

CerebralCortex

Jackz wrote:

Yup, crooks are people who have been proved guilty of crime in a court of law.

Spare us!

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

worded

I object to your comment "quackery like homeopathy"
At a recent car crash I said "step back pls Im a herbalist"
If it wasnt for my quick thinking and ...............

Seriously though - nature is where most cures are found and pharmaceutical companies are there for shareholders.

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

thebman

Jackz wrote:

Yup, crooks are people who have been proved guilty of crime in a court of law.

He's a politican!!! Worst case scenario he ends up in a tribunal with no real consequences.

He took bribes from "friends". Sorry, sorry, loans :rolleyes:

ApeXaviour wrote:

lmao!

Fearmongering with inaccurate anti-nuclear propaganda and hence intransigent policies. I say that as a physicist. If you're green, at least be pragmatic. /rant

There are plenty of reasons not to go with Nuclear power besides safety anyway. Ireland shouldn't go nuclear IMO because the costs are too high especially when it comes to decommisioning the facilities which cost a fortune in the future when we have no idea what our economic situation will be like when it comes to that time.

worded wrote:

I object to your comment "quackery like homeopathy"
At a recent car crash I said "step back pls Im a herbalist"
If it wasnt for my quick thinking and ...............

Seriously though - nature is where most cures are found and pharmaceutical companies are there for shareholders.

Yeah right, water has memory even though all scientific studies shows it doesn't. At best its a great placebo IMO.

Lennoxschips

Maybe one of the reasons they don't allow expats to vote is because we have a sense of objectivity about the country.

My family left Ireland in the late 80s after CJ had bankrupted the country. You think they'd let us vote? In me hole they would!

lola_run

Lennoxschips wrote:

My family left Ireland in the late 80s after CJ had bankrupted the country. You think they'd let us vote? In me hole they would!

Hey Lennoschips,

well I think we need to put pressure on the government to allow expats vote.

There's no point us moaning without taking any action. I know they allow gardai and other civil servants living abroad to make a postal vote, but not us ordinary citizens. Why this divide? Surely, if we were born in Ireland we should be entitled to vote, no?

I want to do something about this but I'm not sure where to look..

ApeXaviour

brim4brim wrote:

There are plenty of reasons not to go with Nuclear power besides safety anyway. Ireland shouldn't go nuclear IMO because the costs are too high especially when it comes to decommisioning the facilities which cost a fortune in the future when we have no idea what our economic situation will be like when it comes to that time.

That's 100% fair enough. If we don't go nuclear, let it be for economic reasons as opposed to misinformed hysteria

solas

GTC wrote:

My friend, the economy is set to collapse into itself before 6-8 months if the OECD and the media in general are correct.

I don't think it will quite collapse into itself but I do think it requires a decent level of managment.

professore

lola_run wrote:

Hey Lennoschips,

well I think we need to put pressure on the government to allow expats vote.

There's no point us moaning without taking any action. I know they allow gardai and other civil servants living abroad to make a postal vote, but not us ordinary citizens. Why this divide? Surely, if we were born in Ireland we should be entitled to vote, no?

I want to do something about this but I'm not sure where to look..

My wife is Belgian and is living here and paying taxes for 10 years yet she can't vote. I lived abroad for 5 years. I'm sorry but I don't think expats should be allowed to vote as they don't have to live with the consequences.

Lennoxschips

lola_run wrote:

Hey Lennoschips,

well I think we need to put pressure on the government to allow expats vote.

There's no point us moaning without taking any action. I know they allow gardai and other civil servants living abroad to make a postal vote, but not us ordinary citizens. Why this divide? Surely, if we were born in Ireland we should be entitled to vote, no?

I want to do something about this but I'm not sure where to look..

tried writing to my nearest Labour TD (Kathleen Lynch) but got no response

Ruen

John R wrote:

It is about as good as you are going to get.

If we had a UK style system FF would now have a huge majority of Dail seats. Remember Tony Blair's Labour won a significant majority in 2005 with only 36% of the popular vote across the country.

Actually they wouldnt because popular candidates that manage their votes so their lesser known running mates get elected on surplus wouldnt be able to do that, for instance Cyprian Brady in Dublin Central who is Bertie Aherns running mate got only 900 votes while Bertie got about 12,000, theres about 90,000 in that constituency so that means 89,000 people didnt vote for Cyprian yet he was still elected but in a "first past past the post system" thats a loss by a mile.

Ruen

lola_run wrote:

The Irish political system is really weird. Surely if no one party gets a majority vote, then the parties with the two biggest votes should go into power together, no?
After all they should respect what the people voted, in this case Fianna FAIL AND Fianna Gael.

Am I alone out there in thinking that the Irish political system is illogical?

No, do you want a democracy or a dictatorship because if that ever happened we would have no opposition in parliament or in an election. Also if Fianna Fáil only need 6 more votes to elect Bertie Ahern as Taoiseach and form a government why would they go in with a party with over 50 seats and have to give away half their ministries when they can get away with 2 or 3?

hallelujajordan

Ruen wrote:

No, do you want a democracy or a dictatorship because if that ever happened we would have no opposition in parliament or in an election. Also if Fianna Fáil only need 6 more votes to elect Bertie Ahern as Taoiseach and form a government why would they go in with a party with over 50 seats and have to give away half their ministries when they can get away with 2 or 3?

. . here here !

Strong opposition is nearly as important as strong government and a FF/FG coalition would be practically unopposed in Dail Eireann . . they could pretty much do whatever they wanted.

On the substantive point, in principle I don't see what the problem is with FF/PD/Ind (It worked pretty well between 97 and 02), plus I would like to see Harney return to health and finish what she has started. However, I'm not sure that the numbers stack up. FF will need three independents. Given their choice, they would bring in Healy-Ray, Flynn and McGrath but Flynn has a bankruptcy hearing on the 11th of June and if found bankrupt she will loose her seat. This means that they will need the support of either Michael Lowry (ex-FG) or Tony Gregory. I don't see either of these options as part of a 'stable' coalition. . . I think the most likely outcome is FF / Green with Trevor Sargeant as our new Tanaiste.

jjbrien

hallelujajordan wrote:

. . here here !

Strong opposition is nearly as important as strong government and a FF/FG coalition would be practically unopposed in Dail Eireann . . they could pretty much do whatever they wanted.

On the substantive point, in principle I don't see what the problem is with FF/PD/Ind (It worked pretty well between 97 and 02), plus I would like to see Harney return to health and finish what she has started. However, I'm not sure that the numbers stack up. FF will need three independents. Given their choice, they would bring in Healy-Ray, Flynn and McGrath but Flynn has a bankruptcy hearing on the 11th of June and if found bankrupt she will loose her seat. This means that they will need the support of either Michael Lowry (ex-FG) or Tony Gregory. I don't see either of these options as part of a 'stable' coalition. . . I think the most likely outcome is FF / Green with Trevor Sargeant as our new Tanaiste.

I hope very much that Harney does not get back into goverment. She has managed to force BUPA out of the health insurance market. Quinn healthcare is there for the minute but if the courts go against them they will pull out also.

I deplore the idea of private hospitals been bulit on public land. That land should be used to expand the public hospitals as we all know we need more beds in our public hospitals and if there is no land to bulid them on next to an existing public hospital then it will end up costing the tax payer and patients alike.

The public have spoken and they said in big numbers they dont like the PD's.

hallelujajordan

jjbrien wrote:

The public have spoken and they said in big numbers they dont like the PD's.

The public have also returned the outgoing Minister for Health in an election where health was made THE biggest issue by all of the opposition parties. .

jjbrien

hallelujajordan wrote:

The public have also returned the outgoing Minister for Health in an election where health was made THE biggest issue by all of the opposition parties. .

Her party was not returned that is what has happened. Their policies were rejected by the people of Ireland. They lost 6 of thier seats.

BigTommyBomb

My wife is Belgian and is living here and paying taxes for 10 years yet she can't vote.

Yes, she can vote.

DarkJager

We're in for another 5 years of corruption and poorly spent public funds. Thank you to everybody who voted FF, you're obviously blind, largely ignorant and are unaffected by all the crap these guys have done in the last 10 years. Its an absolute disgrace that this pack of thieving, two faced and corrupt liars have got back into power.

Ah well, you voted them back in. I look forward to hearing you whinge 6 months down the line....

lola_run

professore wrote:

My wife is Belgian and is living here and paying taxes for 10 years yet she can't vote. I lived abroad for 5 years. I'm sorry but I don't think expats should be allowed to vote as they don't have to live with the consequences.

Well, I think that anyone who works in the country and pays taxes should be entitled to vote after 5 years. As for Irish people living abroad, well most of us will always be Irish citizens and are free to return any year we want, so in fact we do have to live with the consequences. And what about cross-border workers? For example, some of us live in Ireland one half of the year and in another EU country the other half and actually pay taxes and social security contributions in Ireland. So, why should we be excluded from having the right to a postal vote? Perhaps if more of us European/international workers had a say - after all we can objectively compare life in Ireland with that in other European countries - the results may be different.

I recently told a friend of mine who works in the EU about how only certain members of Irish society abroad were entitled to a postal vote. She was shocked and said I should do something about it... But I'm not sure where to start... which Ministry to contact...

hallelujajordan

jjbrien wrote:

Her party was not returned that is what has happened. Their policies were rejected by the people of Ireland. They lost 6 of thier seats.

We don't yet know the make up of the new government but I think you'll find that her party are returned, albeit in a reduced form.

It's hard to argue that their policies were rejected when for the last 10 yrs FF/PD coalition has been following a joint program for government and FF remains in a position of strength. If anything, the PD's lost this election on the likeability factor . . nobody likes McDowell and they suffered as a result. I'm sure if Harney had entered the campaign as PD leader the party would have polled significantly better.

lola_run

hallelujajordan wrote:

We don't yet know the make up of the new government but I think you'll find that her party are returned, albeit in a reduced form.

It's hard to argue that their policies were rejected when for the last 10 yrs FF/PD coalition has been following a joint program for government and FF remains in a position of strength. If anything, the PD's lost this election on the likeability factor . . nobody likes McDowell and they suffered as a result. I'm sure if Harney had entered the campaign as PD leader the party would have polled significantly better.

By the way, it's PDs. (plural)

hallelujajordan

DarkJager wrote:

We're in for another 5 years of corruption and poorly spent public funds. Thank you to everybody who voted FF, you're obviously blind, largely ignorant and are unaffected by all the crap these guys have done in the last 10 years. Its an absolute disgrace that this pack of thieving, two faced and corrupt liars have got back into power.

Ah well, you voted them back in. I look forward to hearing you whinge 6 months down the line....

What utter nonsense ! Why would we whinge 6 months down the line when we have experienced this government for 10 years and are not whinging right now !!

hallelujajordan

lola_run wrote:

By the way, its PDs. (plural)

Thank you for correcting my grammar . . such useful input into the debate !

lola_run

hallelujajordan wrote:

What utter nonsense ! Why would we whinge 6 months down the line when we have experienced this government for 10 years and are not whinging right now !!

Wake up and smell the coffee!!! Of course, people are whinging. Have you not watched any of those television debates? Have you not been reading the papers?

lola_run

BigTommyBomb wrote:

Yes, she can vote.

As there seems to be some confusion about this, perhaps some kind soul can actually point us in the right direction of the legislation stating this.

BigTommyBomb

Well I'm 100% certain that even recent immigrants can not only vote but run for council and dail.

Ok its just council elections and you have to be a citizen to vote for a general election which I think your wife is entitled to be after being here for more than 5 years.

chopperbyrne

She has to be here for five years and then apply for citizenship before she can vote.

Is she a citizen?

She can't vote in presidential elections though.

Always thought that was silly.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

hallelujajordan

lola_run wrote:

Wake up and smell the coffee!!! Of course, people are whinging. Have you not watched any of those television debates? Have you not been reading the papers?

Yes, I read the papers (particular focus on the election results:) )

The point I was making was to refute the suggestion (made by DarkJager)that FF voters will whinge about our choice of government in 6 months. We won't. We have 10 years experience with this administration and we know what we are going to get.

Others will whinge . . as they are doing right now !

DarkJager

DarkJager wrote:

Thank you to everybody who voted FF, you're obviously blind, largely ignorant and are unaffected by all the crap these guys have done in the last 10 years.

You're very welcome.

Would that be the 'crap' on the economy and the North?

lola_run

hallelujajordan wrote:

. . here here !

Strong opposition is nearly as important as strong government and a FF/FG coalition would be practically unopposed in Dail Eireann . . they could pretty much do whatever they wanted.

On the substantive point, in principle I don't see what the problem is with FF/PD/Ind (It worked pretty well between 97 and 02), plus I would like to see Harney return to health and finish what she has started. However, I'm not sure that the numbers stack up. FF will need three independents. Given their choice, they would bring in Healy-Ray, Flynn and McGrath but Flynn has a bankruptcy hearing on the 11th of June and if found bankrupt she will loose her seat. This means that they will need the support of either Michael Lowry (ex-FG) or Tony Gregory. I don't see either of these options as part of a 'stable' coalition. . . I think the most likely outcome is FF / Green with Trevor Sargeant as our new Tanaiste.

Okay, you seem to be missing my point. What I find weird is that a party that gets the highest votes has free rein to form a coalition with a party that got significantly less votes, just because it suits them. Surely, the party with the second highest votes should be the one to form a coalition with the major party, as this reflects the way people voted. If this happened, it would be a true democracy. The way things stand FF can pick and choose who they want to be with. What are the rules/laws on government formation?

And if bogie Bertie needs another 6 votes, how is he going to get them? I mean, the elections are over, aren't they? Basically, he can't be Taoiseach. Hurrah!

I've just read that FF may choose the Greens, which I would be over the moon about, however, it doesn't reflect the way people voted.

If the PDs only got two seats in the Dail, it's hilarious that two politicians can actually have a say...

hallelujajordan

lola_run wrote:

Okay, you seem to be missing my point. What I find weird is that a party that gets the highest votes has free rein to form a coalition with a party that got significantly less votes, just because it suits them. Surely, the party with the second highest votes should be the one to form a coalition with the major party, as this reflects the way people voted. If this happened, it would be a true democracy. The way things stand FF can pick and choose who they want to be with. What are the rules/laws on government formation?

And if bogie Bertie needs another 6 votes, how is he going to get them? I mean, the elections are over, aren't they? Basically, he can't be Taoiseach. Hurrah!

I've just read that FF may choose the Greens, which I would be over the moon about, however, it doesn't reflect the way people voted.

If the PDs only got two seats in the Dail, it's hilarious that two politicians can actually have a say...

As I understand it the rules / laws on the formation of a government ignore party allegiances. The country elects 166 TD's and it is up to a majority of those TD's to elect a Taoiseach whose job it is to form a government. Whether the 83/84 TD's come from one or more parties is not relevant. Each TD holds the same vote in Dail Eireann and has the same mandate.

I understand your point about smaller parties having disproportionate strength but your proposed model would yield a government with a majority of 129/166. In this scenario one of two things would happen... Either the government could do whatever it wanted practically unopposed or, more likely, the coalition would be so unstable that it would last no more than a year or so and get no work done.

Gosh

Nationally the electorate voted against the PDs, in Dublin mid-West there was also a -5.9 swing against Mary Harney from 2002 yet she still managed to get in on transfers. To do a deal with the PDs would be another act of 'arrogance' on the part of FF - the Greens with their 6 seats should be the logical choice. Give Trevor Sargeant the Department of The Environment - can't make more of a mess of it then Dick Roche imo.

lola_run

Gosh wrote:

Nationally the electorate voted against the PDs, in Dublin mid-West there was also a -5.9 swing against Mary Harney from 2002 yet she still managed to get in on transfers. To do a deal with the PDs would be another act of 'arrogance' on the part of FF - the Greens with their 6 seats should be the logical choice. Give Trevor Sargeant the Department of The Environment - can't make more of a mess of it then Dick Roche imo.

Yes, but are us Irish logical?

hallelujajordan

Gosh wrote:

Nationally the electorate voted against the PDs, in Dublin mid-West there was also a -5.9 swing against Mary Harney from 2002 yet she still managed to get in on transfers. To do a deal with the PDs would be another act of 'arrogance' on the part of FF - the Greens with their 6 seats should be the logical choice. Give Trevor Sargeant the Department of The Environment - can't make more of a mess of it then Dick Roche imo.

It's only logical if FF and the Greens can agree a joint program for government and form a stable partnership.

Sargeant fought a campaign on the platform of removing FF from government so you could equally argue that him taking the Greens into a FF led government is 2 fingers up to those who voted Green.

Also, I think Sargeant would make more sense as a transport minister than environment minister (and I think this is what he will be looking for !)

Lennoxschips

The Greens would want control of planning, transport and energy decisions.

FF aren't going to give them control of planning in a million years, because it would mean developers would lose out, which means FF would lose donation money as well as access to dig outs and the like.

Gosh

hallelujajordan wrote:

It's only logical if FF and the Greens can agree a joint program for government and form a stable partnership.

True - but imo more logical than the option of PDs and Independents whether they are of the FF-'gene pool' or not.

hallelujajordan wrote:

Sargeant fought a campaign on the platform of removing FF from government so you could equally argue that him taking the Greens into a FF led government is 2 fingers up to those who voted Green.

Depends on what he's able to negotiate for his party - after all their No. 1 reason for standing in the election was to try and get into government. His 'platform' may have been misguided (imo he was just jumping on the clean-up FF bandwagon just like FG and Labour) and he needs to now stop talking about cleaning up FF (or risk the further wrath of Cowen)[/quote]

John R

Gosh wrote:

Depends on what he's able to negotiate for his party - after all their No. 1 reason for standing in the election was to try and get into government. His 'platform' may have been misguided (imo he was just jumping on the clean-up FF bandwagon just like FG and Labour) and he needs to now stop talking about cleaning up FF (or risk the further wrath of Cowen)

Did he ever specifically say he wanted to clean up FF, everytime I heard him he said "clean up politics". Perhaps it was Cowen who just assumed he was referring to FF, can't think why he would think that though as we all know FF are completely beyond reproach. :rolleyes: