The homogenous nature of the next dail

dan719

Well I personally am disgusted by the make up of the new dail. The increase in seats for the 'big two' who are virtually identical(although I would prefer fine gael over fianna fail to be honest) means that Irish politics has lost whatever radicalism it once had. Joe Higgin's failure to retain his seat means that possibly the sole voice of the working class has been lost. Combined with the decimation of the independents I wonder whether anyone except the upper/ middle class have any real say in the running of the country over the next five years. I suspect that at least some of this is due to the inability of many college students to vote due to exams. One is reminded of the old adage 'a liberal before thirty- no heart...still a liberal after thirty-no head'.
So basically do you think this is a good thing?

Boston

dan719 wrote:

means that Irish politics has lost whatever radicalism it once had.

Good. Radicalism and Radical change where not desired

Joe Higgin's failure to retain his seat means that possibly the sole voice of the working class has been lost.

Guy was an embarrassment that latched onto social campaigns, and he was far from the one voice of the working class.

Combined with the decimation of the independents I wonder whether anyone except the upper/ middle class have any real say in the running of the country over the next five years.

I'm starting to see where you're going with this. FF won in working class areas like Dublin north central.

I suspect that at least some of this is due to the inability of many college students to vote due to exams. One is reminded of the old adage 'a liberal before thirty- no heart...still a liberal after thirty-no head'.

Many? Right, Lets call you on that. Please list all the universities/colleges in Ireland where a majority (or even a significant minority) of students are sitting exams.

So basically do you think this is a good thing?

I think you've a clearly deluded agenda.

Boston

Boston wrote:

Good. Radicalism and Radical change where not desired



Guy was an embarrassment that latched onto social campaigns, and he was far from the one voice of the working class.



I'm starting to see where you're going with this. FF won in working class areas like Dublin north central.



Many? Right, Lets call you on that. Please list all the universities/colleges in Ireland where a majority (or even a significant minority) of students are sitting exams.



I think you've a clearly deluded agenda.

Change was not desired by whom? I think a degree of radicalism is essential in a functioning democracy. Joe Higgins is a loss to the Dail for the simple reason he frequently called Berties government to task.
Remeber Bertie is a "socialist"!

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Boston wrote:

Good. Radicalism and Radical change where not desired

Maybe theirr prominence wasn't desired, but it is essential in a centrist democracy like ours to have a broad spectral perspective in government. With the current set up, what we've got is an airy-fairy goernment with no real balls.They'll just go with what keeps people quiet. Having radcal elements in government keeps people on their toes so that they don't get lazy.

DadaKopf

Change was desired by more than 50% of voters. But the system didn't allocate seats accordingly, such is PR-STV.

Reading about the Irish political system recently, since the civil war, there really hasn't been any radicalism in Irish politics.

As far as Ireland goes, we defy every theory and definition going.

DadaKopf

DadaKopf wrote:

Change was desired by more than 50% of voters. But the system didn't allocate seats accordingly, such is PR-STV.

Reading about the Irish political system recently, since the civil war, there really hasn't been any radicalism in Irish politics.

As far as Ireland goes, we defy every theory and definition going.

I don't agree with your last point at all. Do you have any basis for this opinion or is it just another one of those "only in Ireland" statements with no basis in fact?

Boston

ronoc wrote:

Change was not desired by whom? I think a degree of radicalism is essential in a functioning democracy. Joe Higgins is a loss to the Dail for the simple reason he frequently called Berties government to task.
Remeber Bertie is a "socialist"!

See I know that in order to have read the word change, you would have to have read the word racial before it.

Crash

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CPO-STV <---only way to do it.

avoids the problem with elimination that PR-STV suffers.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

dan719

Boston wrote:

Good. Radicalism and Radical change where not desired



Guy was an embarrassment that latched onto social campaigns, and he was far from the one voice of the working class.



I'm starting to see where you're going with this. FF won in working class areas like Dublin north central.



Many? Right, Lets call you on that. Please list all the universities/colleges in Ireland where a majority (or even a significant minority) of students are sitting exams.



I think you've a clearly deluded agenda.

A deluded agenda- why thank you! If you can't move people out of their comfort zone you obviously have no agenda at all!

On the college issue, I can personally list around one hundred registered voters who were unable to vote due to exams in dublin(I live in wexford) or cork last week. Sorry if you happen to believe everyone lives in dublin or whatever.
And why is radicalism not desired?
Our country is today more dystopian then utopian. Look at the prevalence of poverty- statistics showing children going to school hungry. Look at our hospitals- my three year old brother went in for an ear operation and contrated mrsa. One of my friends(who was unable to vote btw due to exams) contracted pnuemonia due to mrsa and nearly died. Our government stinks of cronyism, and our so called leader is know to have taken payments from wealthy businessmen.
Change is definately desired.

Crash

Well that it my eyes would be better than using a crippled electoral system, provided we have the SENSE to follow the example of a few other countries that work perfectly well with such a system.

Honest to god, the short mindedness on E-Voting sometimes kills me. The system we purchased was poor. thats the fault of the government, not of E-Voting as an idea in general.

leeroybrown

University students have the right to a postal ballot if they are away from their home constituency. Alternatively they can move their vote. If they're actually bothered about voting then it's not a problem. Exams are a scapegoat not an excuse.

Crash

I would, however, call the short time between call of the elections and postal vote deadline a scapegoat, to be honest. and a pretty valid one.

Zaph

While I agree with the OP that Higgins is a big loss, there are a few points/questions worth raising in relation to his post:

1. If you're bemoaning the the drift to the centre in favour of two "virtually identical" parties, does that mean you would have liked to see more PDs elected as well so that there's a broader political spectrum in the Dáil?

2. Irish politics has never had any form of radicalism. We are by nature a politically moderate country, even when the Labour Party are in government.

3. Tony Gregory will be upset that Joe Higgins has been described as the sole voice of the working class.

4. The decimation of the independents is irrelevent, they were mainly single-issue candidates who never had any sort of power in the last Dáil. Ironically, less than half as many this time around could wield a lot of power.

5. If I see that old chestnut about students not being able to vote on Boards one more time I'll scream. At this stage I've actually lost any sympathy for students that didn't/couldn't vote. They had plenty of time over the months before the election to get up off their arses and sort out their postal votes. As already posted by a student elsewhere today who did so, it took a whole 20 minutes to do. If anyone was genuinely concerned about the democratic process they would have taken that 20 minutes anytime since last summer as it wasn't exactly a secret that there'd be an election around May/June this year.

6. As for your "old adage", that's a new one on me, but I was liberal long before I was 30 and I'm well past 30 now and still proud to be a liberal.

monkeyfudge

Boston wrote:

I'm starting to see where you're going with this. FF won in working class areas like Dublin north central.

They lost a a seat in Dublin North Central.

SeanW

Joe Higgins was the only Dail deputy who ever seriously put Bertie on his toes. He was also central to raising the scandal of the ill-treatment of migrant workers, such as those working with GAMA on state projects. If it wasn't for the Socialists, that would probably still be going on, or even more so than it is now.

His loss is a loss for Irish democracy IMO. I would even go so far as to say, a loss for our humanity. This election has been a disaster.

Jonathan

I find it crazy that together 2 out of 3 people in Ireland voted for either FF or FG and yet one is left in opposition. Apart from a few haggles about the civil war, the party's are essentially the same. Only for greed on Bertie's behalf for his beloved ministerial positions, would it not be right for 2 out of 3 people in Ireland to have their chosen party in power?

Nuttzz

I didnt see any of Higgins election material, i saw some of his party colleague, Claire Daly, it was a big long list of what she was against, No to this, No to that oppose this oppose that, wonderful moral stuff but as i said at the time, what is she for? she will continue to lead the fight against..... this is reactionary politics people want action not reaction, the SP didnt grasp this

Boston

dan719 wrote:

On the college issue, I can personally list around one hundred registered voters who were unable to vote due to exams in dublin(I live in wexford) or cork last week. Sorry if you happen to believe everyone lives in dublin or whatever.

That not what I asked you. There are students sitting exams, I acknowledge that. The vast majority of colleges are finished exams.

And why is radicalism not desired?

Stable goverment for the win.

Our country is today more dystopian then utopian. Look at the prevalence of poverty- statistics showing children going to school hungry. Look at our hospitals- my three year old brother went in for an ear operation and contrated mrsa. One of my friends(who was unable to vote btw due to exams) contracted pnuemonia due to mrsa and nearly died. Our government stinks of cronyism, and our so called leader is know to have taken payments from wealthy businessmen.

If you believe radical goverements will solve any of those problems you're mistaken.

Change is definately desired.

Yet somehow not reflected in the election :rolleyes:

monkeyfudge wrote:

They lost a a seat in Dublin North Central.

Who topped the poll?

monkeyfudge

Boston wrote:

Who topped the poll?

Fine Gael actually.

It was a huge drop for Fianna Fáil in the area as they almost got 3 seats last time around.

Clearly the people didn't want a Fianna Fáil politician in power who has had some dodgey dealings with painters and who tried to buy the election through an over the top campaign.

I'm not a huge fan of Fianna Fáil, but Haughey is actually quite good and deserved his seat. I know my job is secure for another 3 years thanks to him anyway.

dan719

Maybe not desired by people who have become extremely well off due to the developer's party. The same people who vote for and finance Fianna Fail's campaigns(and houses).

And I believe radical government will at least look at some of these issues, rather then ignoring them.

And your point about stable government- what stable government? I highly doubt this dail will last five years particularly as Flynn looks quite likely to be declared bankrupt and so lose her seat.

Boston

monkeyfudge wrote:

Fine Gael actually.

It was a huge drop for Fianna Fáil in the area as they almost got 3 seats last time around.

Clearly the people didn't want a Fianna Fáil politician in power who has had some dodgey dealings with painters and who tried to buy the election through an over the top campaign.

I'm not a huge fan of Fianna Fáil, but Haughey is actually quite good and deserved his seat. I know my job is secure for another 3 years thanks to him anyway.

Ah sorry I ment dudlin central, (my area) extremely working class. Bertie topped the polls.

dan719: If you want to believe that FF are the party of the uber rich, fine. That attitude doesn't hold water when you look at the demographic of those that vote FF. And yes stable goverement is exactly what we've had for the last 10 years and look set to have for the next five.