Autofold KK PF in the Fitz 1-2??

digiman

I played 1-2 PL live for the first time in the Fitz last night, my second time ever to play live cash (really my first as my real first time was after Coppers in the Jackpot were I dont remember 1 single hand) so I have no experience at PL at all.

Villan (260): Best opponent at the table good LAG, I have seen him make a big enough bluff on the river, he plays about half his hands and raises about half of them.
History: The hand before this I raises blind to 7, 1 caller and I ask how much is in the pot so I can repot it with AA (I asked the dealer the same question about 10 hands before this when I had 88 but I just called the 7 of a raise), this hand ended up getting shown down, I pot to 40 and he calls, dont have him on much other than suited connectors or a small pair when he calls me. Flop is KKQ and we both check, I bet 50 I think on turn and he instant folds.

The actual hand:
I think Villan is on the BB and Im on the Button, pretty sure this is correct.
A few callers and a raise to 7 and a caller and I again ask how much is in the pot to the dealer and a few people sigh and think I am at it again which is exactly what I want them to think of course. So then the villan repots to 130 and the guy to my left, calls for the rest of his chips which is about 50. Pot is now about 220 and I have 220 behind costing me 90 to call.

I think for quite a while trying to figure is this a squeeze or does he actaully have AA. At one stage he asks me am I all in? and I say nothing.

Do I fold for or ship it all in?

insafehands

2.5:1 to call with KK? This is very simple. It's either call or push though, and I'd push. If you're behind, unlucky, most of the time you'll be picking up a big pot.

Bandara

digiman wrote:

Villan (260): Best opponent at the table good LAG, I have seen him make a big enough bluff on the river, he plays about half his hands and raises about half of them.

He's not good, trust me.






God I'm feeling pedantic today, working Saturdays does that to a man.

delanec8

Ship it in no question, especially if he is any good. I would be more worried if he was one of the live players who limps non stop and only raises preflop once in a blue moon. If he is raising a quarter of the hands this is an easy push.

The other guy could have anything here. I would imagine he uttered the phrase "value, there is lots of value" a couple of times and called allin with J7s

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

digiman

Hammertime wrote:

He's not good, trust me.

Hes not good my online standards but by the standard of the table he is good and I get the feeling he really wants my chips in, but he may not have me on a hand as good as KK as I didnt show the AA and he seen me do something similar with 88 when i ask what is in the pot

BigCityBanker

this really is a no brainer, push it

edit what time/table was this at?

digiman

BigCityBanker wrote:

this really is a no brainer, push it

edit what time/table was this at?

This was at about 1.30. It was the table on the bottom floor at the very top right corner of the room, some awful bad players and quite an easy table to play at.
The thing that amazed me most about how much people think that there is value in a pot so they call the raise every time when there has been 1 caller which really has a domino affect.

Mellor

digiman wrote:

Hes not good my online standards but by the standard of the table he is good and I get the feeling he really wants my chips in, but he may not have me on a hand as good as KK as I didnt show the AA and he seen me do something similar with 88 when i ask what is in the pot

All-in, this is really easy. I imagine you did this and he had aces, and then you convinced yourself that could could of gotten away from it.
His range for RR'ing here is alot larger than AA. If he thinks your at it its even bigger.
ship it, and unlucky he had aces

pok3rplaya

Like that other hand, I push my chips over the line while jupming up and fistpumping and shouting about how hard I just owned the other guy.

Also, some real advice, stop playing in games over your bankroll. This should be an easy shove and forget it hand, only reason it wouldn't be is because you're scared money. (IMO PLZ DONT BAN!!)

Tar.Aldarion

Please tell me you pushed.

digiman

pok3rplaya wrote:

Also, some real advice, stop playing in games over your bankroll. This should be an easy shove and forget it hand, only reason it wouldn't be is because you're scared money. (IMO PLZ DONT BAN!!)

You are right, I do not have a live bankroll for this game as I dont play live poker, the only reason I played was because I got knocked out of the scalps game early. I was definetly not playing with scared money either so this would have no impact on my decision in any way.
Also I am not sure if you need a proper bankroll to play this game either as I have such an edge over the rest of the players in this game that I think a smaller bankroll would be sufficient for this game

valor

ship the moniez

jhegarty

push ...... (don't move up level)....

digiman

I did indeed push, but was not one bit happy doing it as I was 50% sure he had AA. I didnt care one bit about losing the pot was really annoyed that I made the wrong decision when I think I should have taken a bit more time to think about and perhaps fold. I also though I could lay this down for 110BB and most likely get to see his cards and know then if I made a good decision or not.
But I dont think this was as easy and as quick a decision as most people here say it is.

He had AA by the way and no miracle K for me either

BigCityBanker

digiman wrote:

But I dont think this was as easy and as quick a decision as most people here say it is.

You are wrong thinking this now, If you still think this next week you will still be wrong etc etc etc....

This is very very standard poker - no brain power required.... You push, simple as.

insafehands

If you thought it was 50/50 as to whether he had AA, you still made the right decision...

careca

Good to meet you last night digiman. This was just a cooler, had to push

Rickyroma

I may well get slaughtered for this....

As played I would shove, no question..

But I think there ARE circumstances where you can lay down KK preflop.

Last night, Emporium, 1/2 holdem pl main game. Last 3 hands.
Table has just been joined by an absolute lunatic Chinese Gambooler, who in five hands has been involved in 2 $600 pots, and pushed others off 2 other pots with pot raises in excess of $150 on the turn.

1 preflop raise has gone thru uncalled in the last 4 hours. I cannot recall more than 1 hand in the last hour where there has been no pfr.

I have been very tight, and card dead for most of the night.

Dealt to Hero UTG Kh Kd. (Stack $425)

I limp, next 3 call. Villain, a well known reg, raises to 16 (playing $450). Gambooler calls, CO and Button (both playing +$800, Button an excellent player) call. SB and BB fold.

I raise pot to $105. I know a limp reraise gaives away my range but I think a call here is awful.

3 folds back to original raiser who reraises pot for $325. Folded to me.

My read on the villain was that he was exceptionally strong. I was positive he had aces. There is no way he would have 4 bet here with the Gambooler on his left without a premium hand. He also knows how tight I am and knows I don't make this kind of move unless I'm very strong.

I would never before have contemplated folding KK but this was, in my mind, exceptional circumstances. I went to the tank, and folded. Very, very reluctantly.

Villain showed Aces.

My point is this. Having hard and fast rules, other than never folding AA preflop, is poor.

Was I really supposed to go against every read and instinct I had, and 5 bet for 2-1 chips? I was absolutely positive he had Aces, and think in this rare occurance I was right to lay them down.

I've never laid them down before, and don't think I will again for a long time.

phantom_lord

this is a no brainer push.

Mellor

Rickyroma wrote:

But I think there ARE circumstances where you can lay down KK preflop.

I course there are. Nobody has said anything to the contrary.
Its just that the hand in the OP wasn't one of them.

Goodluck2me

you ship it with KK everytime you think you are ahead.... over 50% time you will be so it is profitable. even after all that action. you know that sometime they will have aces but the point is that all the times that they have JJQQAKAQ that you will be makign money from it.

Marq

Ship it.
All the way to the Bad Beat Sticky.

phantom_lord

digiman wrote:

I also though I could lay this down for 110BB

you gotta be a hell of a lot deeper before you'd even think about folding kk pf, esp. in that game.

58o

as previously mentined you are nowhere near deep enough to fold here.

I have only folded KK preflop in a cash game once EVER, in the Jackpot to Conor. We were pretty deep and it was 6 handed! E900 each behind, theres a 7 on the blind conor pots it on the button, I repot from the BB, conor repumps again and I fold. He had the other KK!

Hitman Actual

A few years back, if the money went in preflop in a PLHE game in the Fitz, you were up against Aces. I laid down KK twice, and both times the preflop action was an obvious AA (one hand was against Smurph, circa May 2003). I don't know what the game is like these days, but I still think if the money goes in in a PL game in the Fitz, AA will be involved. A genuine question: has the game changed that much?

Edit: Given the info here, though, I get the money in.

Jesus Wept

Marq wrote:

Ship it.
All the way to the Bad Beat Sticky.

.

phantom_lord

lenny_leonard wrote:

A few years back, if the money went in preflop in a PLHE game in the Fitz, you were up against Aces. I laid down KK twice, and both times the preflop action was an obvious AA (one hand was against Smurph, circa May 2003). I don't know what the game is like these days, but I still think if the money goes in in a PL game in the Fitz, AA will be involved. A genuine question: has the game changed that much?

Edit: Given the info here, though, I get the money in.

yeah, people happily getting it aipf with aq+ jj+ in that game now.

digiman

Marq wrote:

Ship it.
All the way to the Bad Beat Sticky.

The thing is, its not a bad beat. I was a huge underdog when the money went in and I only got worse after each card. His cards were even the same suit as mine so I didnt even have a flush draw!!

I do accept why you all think its an instant shove when you take into consideration the standard that is in there, but these players do get dealt good hands just as much as anyone else. I should have made this clearer at the start probably but when I said he was loose, I got the impression that he is not always this loose and he was meerly playing looser to exploit some of the people at the table already as he has the ability to out play them.
I cannot explain how close I was to folding this as I really did think that he had AA or nothing here and he was not doing this with JJ, QQ or AK, as I didnt think he was that type of gambling player were he was going to risk all his chips without the best hand and he has no real need to either when he has only €2 invested already and there has been strong play before him as well.

Jayminator

I ve laid down KK only once pre flop and i was right to do it. But it was in the tourny in the Fitz. I ve seen another boardsie do the same and he was right to do so.. But it was in a tourny in the SE.

In this cash and I ve played a fair few in the fitz I push. He has AA your unlucky.... Have i missed something or could you have called and seen a flop hoping for your magic card.. Its sunday and im hungover so please dont ask me to concentrate..

Marq

digiman wrote:

The thing is, its not a bad beat.

Yeah, I know. But coolers generally go in the BBV too. I think it's odd that you came close to folding here. %wise this is always a push. It's a cash game, you can rebuy. You're just not deep enough to be giving folding any serios thought here.

kryogen

if ur not deep stacked in a cash game,especially one such as this I beieve fold should not b an option!! yes u can fold KK pre flop, if u go with a read that he has AA but it wud need to b a pretty strong read as this is the only hand u are behind to,KK=2nd best possible starting hand+cash game,can re-buy,=push push push!!! its a winning play in the long run!!