Left Wing Government? No Thanks! | Hit or Miss?

PH01

We all saw the news reports yesterday where McDowell was up to his old tricks.
So do you think that this will be an election turner like the 2002 "Single Party Government? No Thanks!" poster

I reckon that it will have some impact (it might just save one or two PD seats) but I think the electorate are beyond that tipping point.
What do you think?

gandalf

It sums up their whole message. Negative, negative, negative not surprising because what they have delivered is incompetence and bluster.

PH01

gandalf wrote:

It sums up their whole message. Negative, negative, negative not surprising because what they have delivered is incompetence and bluster.

True, but that negative message worked the last time.

gandalf

Yes but will it work again, you can con the people once but god help you if you try it again.

At least FF have tried to debate the issues, Cockroche is on the telly now trying to debate the Health Service, bless him.

Senator

Are the PDs saying Bertie is NOT a socialist ?

thelepo

For me, a definite miss, as I would like a real left wing government. FG/Lab/Green would not be left wing.

From a PR point of view, not engaging at all.

yomchi

Socialist party and Sinn Fein in power. If it ever happened would be a choice left wing coalition. I think as citizens we would certainly get value for money then.

Joe Higgans as Tainiste and Gerry A as Taoiseach - one can dream...

AidoCQS

MISS

See the problem is that in this election the LEFT'S message seems to be a more considered argument...

The left has ditched daft stuff like higher broad-brush corporation tax, indeed McDowell looks foolish last night when he tried to defend the banks corporation tax

The left is looking at PEAK oil
and a symbiotic transport strategy.

The left is hammering the privatizing of our health system. The right looks as if they learned nothing from that experiment in the US

I am trying to avoid general arguments here that belong in other fora but my central point is that in previous elections to call somebody a LEFTist was to associate them with longhaired adolescent teenagers. Now it’s to associate them with more advanced thinking (possibly that of a long haired professor for example)


People can differentiate between left like communism mismanagement (Its dead and gone) and more all inclusive left leaning European governments who look after all their people.


The PD's keep rolling out the 'economy we created' argument when even the dogs in the street know that this boom was kicked off by the taking away of central monetary management away from Irish politicians.

It appears then that the boom 'happened to us' and in this respect it was mismanagement not to invest it properly or spread it around.

The rights seems to have abandoned all thinking in lieu of being victims to just Market forces and spending more of their time putting out fires. Sergeant has done a great job of putting out a message that if we don’t prepare for the fires coming down the line, now while we can, nobody will be able to put them out.

Look even if you cannot figure all that out, if you had two parties, one aping the Americans, the other aping our neighbours in Europe, who do you think is going to come off the most intelligent looking?

AidoCQS

delete repeated post

Nuttzz

as a PD supporter I think it is the wrong message, focus on the positive, the party seem to be doing a lot of negative campaigning

CiaranC

Does someone want to tell me what is left-wing about FG?

mikemac

Not everyone will know what a left-wing government is.
Yes, everyone in a Politics forum is likely to know but I doubt everyone does. A lot of people can't name their local TD so how can they be expected to know political theory.

For that reason, it isn't an effective ad.

28064212

micmclo wrote:

Not everyone will know what a left-wing government is.
Yes, everyone in a Politics forum is likely to know but I doubt everyone does. A lot of people can't name their local TD so how can they be expected to know political theory.

For that reason, it isn't an effective ad.

That's a pretty accurate statement, apart from the last sentence. That should read "it is an effective ad". They mightn't know what exactly a left-wing government is, but they know what connotations it has. Hell look at the presentation of the posters running the ad, big red background. Think that's an accident? They might as well have written "Don't vote for the Commies" over a picture of Stalin.

galactus

PH01 wrote:

We all saw the news reports yesterday where McDowell was up to his old tricks.
So do you think that this will be an election turner like the 2002 "Single Party Government? No Thanks!" poster

I reckon that it will have some impact (it might just save one or two PD seats) but I think the electorate are beyond that tipping point.
What do you think?

In a word: juvenile.

RalphCifaretto

It's effective inasmuch as we are talking about it here.

brianthebard

28064212 wrote:

That's a pretty accurate statement, apart from the last sentence. That should read "it is an effective ad". They mightn't know what exactly a left-wing government is, but they know what connotations it has. Hell look at the presentation of the posters running the ad, big red background. Think that's an accident? They might as well have written "Don't vote for the Commies" over a picture of Stalin.

At least you could admire them for their balls if they had done that.

Zaph

It's an utterly pointless slogan, Ireland will never have a proper left-wing government. The PDs are currently trying to scare the country into thinking that society will break down if we have Pat Rabbitte as finance minister and Trevor Sergeant as environment minister. Apart from the fact that even if that did happen, both would have to make concessions if they were to be a part of the coalition, and consequently their more "extreme" (in the eyes of the PDs) policies would be toned down somewhat, I actually think that both would bring something new and interesting to those positions. The down side is that if they were both to become ministers it would mean Enda Kenny would be Taoiseach, and the thought of that fills me with no joy whatsoever.

road_high

You can only pull off stunts like this the once. Milking it for all it's worth like McDowell the second time just won't work in my opinion.
Total miss then I have to say.

Colonel Sanders

surely the only people it'll scare are those who would never consider voting for the likes of Labour/Greens/SF in the first place.

Voipjunkie

Colonel Sanders wrote:

surely the only people it'll scare are those who would never consider voting for the likes of Labour/Greens/SF in the first place.

Like Fine Gael Voters ?

blorg

Sure Labour want to build a halting site - in YOUR garden.

The Greens want to expel all multinationals and institute a nationwide blackout after 8pm - tuck up in bed now.

And as for Fine Gael, well, although the largest party in any such possible coalition they will not actually have ANY influence over this pair of loonies above.

Oh yeah, and BTW, I forgot- a vote for any of the above is a vote for Sinn Fein.

Time Magazine

blorg wrote:

Sure Labour want to build a halting site - in YOUR garden.

O RLY?

The Greens want to expel all multinationals and institute a nationwide blackout after 8pm - tuck up in bed now.

O RLY?

And as for Fine Gael, well, although the largest party in any such possible coalition they will not actually have ANY influence over this pair of loonies above.

O RLY? Not even in their own ministries?

Oh yeah, and BTW, I forgot- a vote for any of the above is a vote for Sinn Fein.

O RLY? You think a vote for FG is a vote for Sinn Féin? Are you mad? Really? People like ateam and The_Minister are biased and so put out half-truths and what-ifs, which I can appreciate, but are you really trying to suggest a vote for the most conservative party in the country is a vote for SF? Seriously?

CiaranC

CiaranC wrote:

Does someone want to tell me what is left-wing about FG?

Not a lot.

Like Labour.

Miss.

gandalf

Ibid I think you will find he was being sarcastic.

What interests me is the usual PD cheerleader brigade seem to be steering clear of this thread. If one does venture in I'd like to ask them a question, "Are you not embarrassed at the complete failure of the PD's to discuss the issues and just rely on smears and negative capaigning to gain votes?".

Time Magazine

gandalf wrote:

Ibid I think you will find he was being sarcastic.

Nothing to see here .

I thought it was quite funny:o
I'm still voting labour though.

The Rooster

gandalf wrote:

Ibid I think you will find he was being sarcastic.

What interests me is the usual PD cheerleader brigade seem to be steering clear of this thread. If one does venture in I'd like to ask them a question, "Are you not embarrassed at the complete failure of the PD's to discuss the issues and just rely on smears and negative capaigning to gain votes?".

I'm a floating voter, my ideology is closest to Fine Gael I think (tho I'm not overly keen on Inda), but PDs would be a close second.

To say "the complete failure of the PD's to discuss the issues" is an absolute nonsense. Every day there's someone on discussing something.

It is true to say they have done more negative campaigning than anyone else. But they have the right to point out that a FG/Lab/Green government will be the most left wing one we've had in a long time (ever?). And we'll have a Finance Minister who would have been regarded as a commie in his early days of politics.

brianthebard

Why is it so important to point out that government would be left wing? What does this imply?

AlanOB

And we'll have a Finance Minister who would have been regarded as a commie in his early days of politics.

That should be the main concern and it's only your good self that I've seen raising it, here or elsewhere.

I don't think anyone needs telling that Rabbitte was first and foremost a Workers Party TD for Dublin South West, representing a party well known for their Marxist ideology, an ideology that is completely at odds with the free, enterprising and successful country we live in at present.

Putting all other animosity towards left-wing politics to one side, I do not under any circumstance want a reconstructed Marxist in control of the purse strings of my country and neither should any other right-minded individual.

brianthebard

Surely Rabbitte would be Tanaiste in any case?

Grudaire

A left wing government????????? Where

I'm not sure but the only really truelly left wing party is Sinn Féin, and noone wants to touch them, I see very little difference between Labour, Fianna Fáil, and Fine Gael....

It's not as if a military communist coup d'étet is on the doorstep...

DMC

brianthebard wrote:

Surely Rabbitte would be Tanaiste in any case?

And he'll have a ministry.

Pensioners do remember that a Labour minister for finance and a Democratic Left minister for Social Welfare increased the old-age pension by about €3, nil compared to inflation. Old people are more likely to vote that young 'uns, so McDowell's poster trick might work for them.

singingstranger

To be honest I don't even think McDowell was trying to make a point about what the 'alternative' Government would get up to, I think he was just confusing his own opinion (i.e. "left-wing, baaaaaaaad") with that of the rest of the country. By saying "The incoming Government will be left-of-centre" I reckon he's basically assuming the entire country hadn't yet noticed the political positioning of Labour and the GP, and assuming the rest of the country wants to reject leftie idealism.

Which, of course, is all well and good, but for the fact that now we're not strapped for cash, many people probably would like to see some idealism on the part of the Government for a change.

The Rooster

brianthebard wrote:

Why is it so important to point out that government would be left wing? What does this imply?

The focus moves away from enterprise, moves away from encouraging entrepreneurship, moves away from job creation, enocurages people to stay at home and scratch themselves, encourages higher tax for those who work to pay for those who won't.

That's extreme, but that'd be the fear. Especially with Rabbitte in Finance.

The ordinary PAYE worker, who works very hard, is earning an alright wage but pays plenty of tax as it is.......... its this man or woman who McDowell is dead right to warn about the dangers of a government with Rabbitte and the Greens.

AlanOB

Well said Rooster.

blorg

AlanOB wrote:

I don't think anyone needs telling that Rabbitte was first and foremost a Workers Party TD for Dublin South West, representing a party well known for their Marxist ideology, an ideology that is completely at odds with the free, enterprising and successful country we live in at present.

Putting all other animosity towards left-wing politics to one side, I do not under any circumstance want a reconstructed Marxist in control of the purse strings of my country and neither should any other right-minded individual.

Christ, DL split from the Workers Party fifteen years ago, and Rabbitte was one of the key people instigating that move away from the hard left. By contrast, fifteen years before Tony Blair became Prime Minister he was "a committed socialist who acknowledged his debt to Marx." Of course we all know how Stalinism has since taken hold over there in the UK over the last ten years.

The last Labour finance minister we had was Ruairi Quinn who was competent and fiscally conservative, and in office at the very start of the "celtic tiger." It's quite telling that another poster berates Quinn for not raising the pension enough! What's going on here, I'm confused- say NO to a left-wing government! They reduce taxes and rein in public spending too much!?

The PDs are scaremongering, it's complete News of the World stuff and really quite pathetic (oh yeah, sorry I left out the /sarcasm tag in my last post ;-)

brianthebard

The Rooster wrote:

The focus moves away from enterprise, moves away from encouraging entrepreneurship, moves away from job creation, enocurages people to stay at home and scratch themselves, encourages higher tax for those who work to pay for those who won't.

That's extreme, but that'd be the fear. Especially with Rabbitte in Finance.

The ordinary PAYE worker, who works very hard, is earning an alright wage but pays plenty of tax as it is.......... its this man or woman who McDowell is dead right to warn about the dangers of a government with Rabbitte and the Greens.

This is a joke, the focus does not move away from any of those things. And surely the ordinary PAYE worker would be more happy to have a left leaning government in power? The fact is FG will be government and it will be a centre government. There is no move away from what the people need and want, but instead an increased interest in the needs of the people, as opposed to the big businesses.

The Rooster

brianthebard wrote:

but instead an increased interest in the needs of the people, as opposed to the big businesses.

Yeah, we'll run all the big business out of the country, a great service to the people, assuming working isnt your bag...

Ruairi was never in the Workers Party, and has always been on the "right" side of Labour.

AlanOB

That's what it all comes down to Rooster with people on the left - their failure to understand that creating a positive environment for the so-called "evil corporations" is what benefits the average joe on the street at the end of the day. Maybe they overlook this because of some begrudgery towards people who have shown enterprise and intellect to reach the top of life's tree, who knows?

The point is to provide public services, everything is predicated first on creating an environment that's attractive to big business. Without employment, the net cashflow of the the Government is out, and the country stagnates and deteriorates as we and many, many other countries have learned over the years.

Funny how they have pulled out Ruairi Quinn one of the least leftist members of the Labour Party as a positive example.

blorg

The Rooster wrote:

Yeah, we'll run all the big business out of the country, a great service to the people, assuming working isnt your bag...

But this is exactly what we mean, it's all vague scaremongering. No specifics.

"Drive big business out of the country." How exactly? Because the current leader of a potential junior coalition partner may have belonged to a Marxist party two decades ago? (And tried to reform said party, and then left said party when that didn't work.)

And any specifics produced are at best misleading, often outright lies. For example: "The Greens are going to raise corporation tax." Except of course, that, no, they aren't. And even if they wanted to they couldn't, as they would be the junior junior partner in a coalition.

Maybe we have got used in the last ten years to the idea that the major coalition party lies back and lets a micro-party drive the agenda; doesn't mean that FG will do the same.

And BTW: our current Taoiseach is a socialist. Remember?

brianthebard

The Rooster wrote:

Yeah, we'll run all the big business out of the country, a great service to the people, assuming working isnt your bag...

Nice twist of my words, you could work for the PD's. The fact of the matter is I have seen the_minister and other PD supporters claiming that Labour are no longer a left wing party, yet when it might be able to be used as a slur against them, suddenly we're looking at Pat Rabbitte as a new Guevara. This is all clear smears and scaremongering with no content or actual reasoning behind it.

blorg

Funny how they have pulled out Ruairi Quinn one of the least leftist members of the Labour Party as a positive example.

Erm... in response to the suggestion that Labour in Finance would be a disaster. Well Quinn is, then, a somewhat relevant example. In fact he's not only the last but the first - oh, the only example of a Labour Minister for Finance. I wasn't exactly cherry-picking. I'm sorry, I should have referred to the time we had Gerry Adams in the job back in the 80s. You know, that time that everyone has forgotten.

This whole vague "watch out! reds under the bed" smear against the whole opposition would be like the supposed "left" (FG?) comparing Michael McDowell's right-leaning to fascism. But of course McDowell reserves the Nazi comparisons for his own use as well...

blorg

brianthebard wrote:

Nice twist of my words, you could work for the PD's.

And he probably does :rolleyes:

This is all clear smears and scaremongering with no content or actual reasoning behind it.

Completely agree. Personally, I think people need to be careful when considering voting for the PDs. Some of their populist rhetoric may be tempting, and god knows voting for anyone else would lead to DISASTER, but McDowell's tendencies towards baby-eating are well known. Moreso, his plans to arm the gardaí, with a view to the assasination of troublesome union leaders, is well-meaning but ultimately misguided. I don't think anyone would disagree with the idea of assasinating union leaders, but is that were it will stop? At the very least the task is a drain on state resources and should be out-sourced to private "contractors."

billy the squid

It was amusing to see a "Left Wing Government ... No Thanks" poster in the middle B/C weston this evining. normally an area where left wing parties would get votes.

I think it is a miss to be honest. for me anyway I would associate right wingers with the likes of Gw bush and maggie Thatcher, so I'll take left wing any day.

darkman2

Its a hit for me. McDowell has very good points but the ignorant wont listen. Sums up the Irish - never had it so good so lets vote them out.

Hector Gilbert

The "single party government - no thanks!" campaign last election was fundamentally different in its message, though perhaps not in its obvious intention to attract more attention and votes. It reminded voters who were happy with the way things were and did not wish for change that if the PDs did not still hold the balance of power then the government would indeed change, even if to a FF majority. On the other hand, the message this time around is merely a swipe at the opposition. Though I could see people agreeing with the sentiments of the campaign, as an appeal to the voting public at large it comes across to me as largely puerile and desperate.

joecoote

The rant and scare-mongering of party which dare not put its priviledge based program for government into the public domain.

The Rooster

blorg wrote:

And he probably does :rolleyes:

Hilarious. Someone agrees with a PD comment, so he must work for them :rolleyes:

Do you all work for the red rabbit?

Answer me this question then, anyone who supports Labour.

We all know the Pat Rabbitte main focus of attack on the government for the last few years has been the Health Service. At the same time the running of the economy hasnt been an issue. Publicly Labour have come around to the idea that the low tax economy works, and basically if they got in they'd try to keep running the economy as is (with just minor changes).

Under the agreement FG and Labour have made about a coalition, Pat Rabbitte will get his choice of ministry. Whatever he wants he gets. So does he choose Finance where he'll continue (or so he says) where FF/PD left off, or will he choose Health, where he says (and has been bleating on continually for years) that major reform is needed and that FF/PD are doing abysmally.

Answer?

Well if you don't know, he's already publicly stated he's going to be Minister for Finance. :eek: So something doesnt add up. He's happy to get a portfolio and continue pretty much as FF were doing? Or is he just afraid of Angola? A coward who knows it'll take years to make a difference because of unions and civil servants? Or does he want to bring some of his commie background into Finance??

I am actually first and foremost a FG supporter but I have floated around. If Richard Bruton was going to be Taoiseach or Finance Minister, I'd have no hesitation voting for FG this time around. But at present I have doubts about the influence Labour and Greens will have, so I'm leaning towards FF ahead of FG - but still there's a week to go and plenty can happen.

galactus

The Rooster wrote:

The focus moves away from enterprise, moves away from encouraging entrepreneurship, moves away from job creation, enocurages people to stay at home and scratch themselves, encourages higher tax for those who work to pay for those who won't.

That's extreme, but that'd be the fear. Especially with Rabbitte in Finance.

The ordinary PAYE worker, who works very hard, is earning an alright wage but pays plenty of tax as it is.......... its this man or woman who McDowell is dead right to warn about the dangers of a government with Rabbitte and the Greens.

This "right" vs. "left" thing is a bit stale but clearly, the present government do not know how to manage. See 17billion.com/ (non-aligned website with the facts).

Surely it is more important on how the taxpayer's money is actually spent rather than the total amount of money washing around.

In any case, where exactly is it in any party manifesto of the FG/Lab/Greens that states that they will discourage enterprise? Surely encouraging new forms of wealth-creation will benefit all Irish citizens. Are they going to ask the IDA not to try so hard or something??

You do make the point that the focus moves away from purely economics. That is not a bad thing. I don't want to sound glib but money can't solve every problem and creates more than a few.

With the focus solely on economics what can we expect when we have a Taoiseach who is an accountant. For a "man of the people", he seems to have a poor grasp of what is actually going on in this country.

I might add: "The ordinary PAYE worker" lined Haughey's pockets in the 80s.

The Rooster

Its all very well giving the bluster that a FG/Labour/Green coalition will continue the economic policies of FF/PD, but will change the way we spend the money, but bluster counts for nothing.

So I repeat the question - why does Rabbitte who has been so voiceferous re the health service, turn down the health portfolio. He constantly blabs on about "Change Change Change", and then I see he wants Finance and doesnt want Health!

galactus

The Rooster wrote:

Its all very well giving the bluster that a FG/Labour/Green coalition will continue the economic policies of FF/PD, but will change the way we spend the money, but bluster counts for nothing.

So I repeat the question - why does Rabbitte who has been so voiceferous re the health service, turn down the health portfolio. He constantly blabs on about "Change Change Change", and then I see he wants Finance and doesnt want Health!

Bluster? is that our word for today?

Any chance you can re-read my previous post!