Wait, that is supposed to be a good card for *me*

fuzzbox

1/2 6-max
Dont know villain from Adam.

I've been opening regularly from CO and button.

Stacks 240ish

Preflop
Folded to me in CO, and I open to 7 with Ks Kx, villain makes it 24 from BB. This is the first time he has 3-bet me. I call.

Flop (49)
Jd 9s 8s
Villain bets 40, I call

Turn (129)
3s
Villain thinks quite some time, and finally shoves for 190. And I?

BigCityBanker

I dunno what you do but I call.

Hectorjelly

I would 4 bet pre and shove the flop

edit to add, i mean would shove the flop if I cold called preflop

also edited to add if I played it as OP I would call turn

bops

Hectorjelly wrote:

I would 4 bet pre and shove the flop

that sounds good to me

as played get it in

maximusdecimus

its probobly a call for me expecting him to have AsKx.

Vamos

I'd call, theres a good chance he's pissed off with your co and button opening raises and pushing AsJx AsTx

MrPillowTalk

I would never flat call the flop, Id raise every time.

On the turn I would expect a value half pot bet more than a shove from a made flush, as played Id call and expect to see a set regularly enough and start funking for them spade outs.

cooker3

I don't mind a call although I would generally raise. I would definately be shoving that flop.
I not too fond of the situation, I think your behind a lot to sets and also sometime Aces with A of spades, Ak is also a possibility.
I'd fold.

ditpoker

cooker3 wrote:

, I think your behind a lot to sets and also sometime Aces with A of spades, Ak is also a possibility.
I'd fold.

cooker3 = rock !!!!

what rob really said...
"i think with an over pair im behind to 1) every possible set, 2) aces, 3) aces with A of spades so my draw is dead, 4) if he has AK with the A of spades i'd fold too, why else would my opponent bet unless he is ahead... id fold"

MrPillowTalk

ditpoker wrote:

, why else would my opponent bet unless he is ahead... id fold"

Cos its 1/2 and he has top a pair a lot

Lissavalley

Bet big on flop everytime here, especially if you're not able to fold if a bad turn card comes, which the 3s is.

Ste05

MrPillowTalk wrote:

Cos its 1/2 and he has top a pair a lot

I seriously doubt he has a lone J here TBH.

I'd have 4-Bet Pre-Flop if this as well, if he hasn't been 3-betting us previously he might be willing to get All-In Pre-Flop which would be my first preference.

Having said that I will also flat call sometimes too, and on this flop, I personally don't mind a flat call here either, I think alot of how I would play this hand would depend on how loose my image, and how I'd been playing, so I can see myself raising here and getting AI or calling and getting AI on the turn, as played I'd call the turn shove and not like it.

P.S. Welcome back Fuzz...

Bandana boy

I 4 bet here but then i 4 bet with rags here so i am expecting worse hands to call
As played hmm
this is the lone ace more often than the made flush so call
although i expect Villain to have outs and those outs will hit


on a side note its good to see you haved stopped letting work and family get in the way of Poker discussion for at least a day

fuzzbox

Results: I folded.

Thats cos I suck tho, and also probably cos I keep losing in these spots by calling here.

pok3rplaya

I think you should have *called*

Tar.Aldarion

Past results shouldn't affect it. Cally cally

valor

your line so far is fine, but i would never fold the turn

MrPillowTalk

Ste05 wrote:

I seriously doubt he has a lone J here TBH.

I'd have 4-Bet Pre-Flop if this as well, if he hasn't been 3-betting us previously he might be willing to get All-In Pre-Flop which would be my first preference.

Having said that I will also flat call sometimes too, and on this flop, I personally don't mind a flat call here either, I think alot of how I would play this hand would depend on how loose my image, and how I'd been playing, so I can see myself raising here and getting AI or calling and getting AI on the turn, as played I'd call the turn shove and not like it.

P.S. Welcome back Fuzz...

Hands I most expect to play this way at 1/2 would be AsJx, AxJx, TxTs, 88, 99, JJ, QQ probably with a spade.

We are ok against that range I think. Obvioulsy he shows up with a flush sometimes but tbh thats unlikely, if its his first time 3 betting us I would espect the only flush hands he could have to be the nut flushes AsQs or AsJs and I would doubt hes playing them so hard. If he has a set just start willing the spade out.

jimmii

With your loose pre-flop image then he could be raising you pretty light pre-flop. If you think he is taking a stand against your raises with a marginal hand then calling is a risky but ok move but then you have to be aggressive post flop. If you think he has something decent pre-flop re-raise him, then get as much in as possible on the flop. Hopefully he see's you as a bit of a maniac and will take you on with a load you are ahead of.

Marq

If you're not going to 4-bet preflop or raise the flop then you just can't fold here.

fuzzbox

Marq wrote:

If you're not going to 4-bet preflop or raise the flop then you just can't fold here.

Oh? ... why? Thats rather a heady statement.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

fuzzbox

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Past results shouldn't affect it.

Why not?
Surely, if I constantly call in this spot, and lose money over time as a result, then I should be able to take heed of that?

fuzzbox

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Out of interest - do you 4 - Bet a lot? Would you ever show up with anything other than AA or KK when you 4 - bet?

yeah I've been known to 4-bet, and show up with stuff other than AA/KK.

But I dont see anything wrong with playing a hand such as this in position. I can call here with plenty of hands that are less than KK, so I dont see why I cant call with KK either.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Marq

fuzzbox wrote:

Oh? ... why? Thats rather a heady statement.

You've made a standard raise preflop, and been 3-bet, and flat-called.
Your opponent has led the flop, and you have flat called.
By not four-betting and then not raising the flop you have allowed your opponent to be the aggressor in this hand, and disguised the strength of your hand completely.

Because you have under-represented your holding, your opponent is much more likely to be betting here with a wider range. QQ and TT probably look quite good to him now. Coupled with that you have picked up the second nut flush draw, and with the chance that you have the best hand, and the chance that you will make the best hand, and the pot odds, I just don't see how you can fold.

If you had 4-bet preflop and he had led this flop it would be different. Or if you had raised the flop and he still came out firing on the flop or the turn we would be folding a lot, but as you have given him no reason to think that you have a hand as strong as this I think this is an auto-call. I think the range that MrPT posted above is quite likely, and we have good equity against it.

Has he overbet the pot much? If so, did you get to see him show down anything?

By the way I quite like your line, but only if your intention is to beat him into the pot on the turn.

fuzzbox

Marq wrote:

You've made a standard raise preflop, and been 3-bet, and flat-called.
Your opponent has led the flop, and you have flat called.
By not four-betting and then not raising the flop you have allowed your opponent to be the aggressor in this hand, and disguised the strength of your hand completely.

Because you have under-represented your holding, your opponent is much more likely to be betting here with a wider range. QQ and TT probably look quite good to him now. Coupled with that you have picked up the second nut flush draw, and with the chance that you have the best hand, and the chance that you will make the best hand, and the pot odds, I just don't see how you can fold.

If you had 4-bet preflop and he had led this flop it would be different. Or if you had raised the flop and he still came out firing on the flop or the turn we would be folding a lot, but as you have given him no reason to think that you have a hand as strong as this I think this is an auto-call. I think the range that MrPT posted above is quite likely, and we have good equity against it.

Has he overbet the pot much? If so, did you get to see him show down anything?

By the way I quite like your line, but only if your intention is to beat him into the pot on the turn.

Lets say that you are villain, and the action goes like this.

CO opens to 7, button fold, sb fold, you make it 24 in the bb. Co calls. (this is the first time you have 3-bet him).

Flop (50)
Jd 9s 8s
You bet 40, he calls

What range do you consider that he has?

Turn (129)
3s

What range do you push, and why?

Hectorjelly

People push there because its easy to press the all in button. I think he never has a flush here, and you have given him enough rope to hang himself with tonnes of hands you beat.

Marq

fuzzbox wrote:

Lets say that you are villain, and the action goes like this.
CO opens to 7, button fold, sb fold, you make it 24 in the bb. Co calls. (this is the first time you have 3-bet him).
Flp (50)
Jd 9s 8s
You bet 40, he calls
What range do you consider that he has?
Turn (129)
3s
What range do you push, and why?

to be honest I doubt that this exercise is of much use because I would like to think that my play would be very different to the average unknown at a 1/2 table. As I said above I think Pillowtalk's possible range for the villian is a good guideline againt the average player, and on the basis of this it's a call.
Out of interest, what range did you put the villian on that prompted you to fold?

BuChan

[QUOTE} Out of interest, what range did you put the villian on that prompted you to fold?[/QUOTE]

this is what i'd like to know..... there are a boatload of hand you beat here, gotta call.

fuzzbox

Marq wrote:

to be honest I doubt that this exercise is of much use because I would like to think that my play would be very different to the average unknown at a 1/2 table. As I said above I think Pillowtalk's possible range for the villian is a good guideline againt the average player, and on the basis of this it's a call.
Out of interest, what range did you put the villian on that prompted you to fold?

Im not suggesting that my fold was magnificient or anything.

But anyway -
if villain pushes with AA/KK/QsQx/TsTx/JJ/99/88/AsKx
Then he is 65%/35% favourite (note I havent included any flushes like AQs or AJs)

I think we get 60/40 pot odds, so it could be close.

Of course, the more AsQx or AsJx that he has, the better for us.

Bandana boy

It is far from magnificent
I agree with Marq if you are going to flat call preflop then you have to call here otherwise you need to 4bet pre flop
I think villains pushing range is much bigger than you have credited him for

You have played the hand well up to now ,he has no idea that KK is in your range you are letting him hang himself, I cant see any other option but push here for his range of hands
Also there is at least 3 more Asxx in his hand than your giving credit to him for and that will swing it back for you