$25/50 PL Omaha

The_Prof

Villain is tight, predictable and will rarely make a move. However, I don't think that the beginner's "panic bluff all-in" if he senses weakness is beyond him.
Given this, what do you guys think of this hand?

Btw, my image is fairly tight, and I think people believe I am not as capable of making big moves without the goods.

I am not sure if I can get away from this hand, but it's been bothering me. It seems like it's just $1500 down the drain.

PL $25/$50 Omaha - 2007
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of active players : 6
Seat 1: Kirderf ( $4,825 )
Seat 2: stripes ( $4,883.32 )
Seat 3: india ( $2,769 )
Seat 4: nimisi ( $3,172 )
Seat 5: R KESTON ( $28,385.48 )
Seat 6: HERO ( $4,107 )
R KESTON posts small blind [$25]
HERO posts big blind [$50]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ 3d, 4c, 4h, 3h ]
Kirderf folds
stripes calls [$50]
india folds
nimisi calls [$50]
R KESTON calls [$25]
HERO checks
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3c, 6c, 7h ]
R KESTON bets [$200]
HERO raises to [$720]
stripes calls [$720]
nimisi folds
R KESTON folds
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9h ]
HERO bets [$1,840]
stripes calls [$1,840]
** Dealing River ** [ 6s ]
HERO checks
stripes goes all-in
stripes bets [$2,273.32]
HERO calls [$1,497]
HERO goes all-in
Returning uncalled bet [$776.32] to stripes
** Showdown **
stripes shows [ Kd, 7s, 7c, 6d ] full house, Sevens full of Sixes
HERO mucks [ 3d, 4c, 4h, 3h ]
** Hand Conclusion **
stripes wins $8,511 from main pot with full house, Sevens full of Sixes

jhegarty

Type of hand to file under **** happens..... if you get away from a hand like that you will fold 10 more where you are ahead....

The_Prof

Btw, a few points of note:

1. I was planning on "bluffing" the river all-in. I figure he would fold a set which is his most likely holding a decent % of the time. Sometimes he might call, but I think it's +EV. I dont think I make too much on average vs this guy on a missed flush bluff.

2. The fact that RKESTON lead this pot, pushed me towards making the call, because he was leading a lot of pots with twopair type hands. Here, he clearly didn't have the straight, probably didn't have a flush draw either as he's probably checking to try get turn card cheap enough. So, the fact board paired as well as Keston's bet suggested less likelihood he had a set...

3. The player was the weakest at the table. At first I suggested that he was merely "tight and predictable", but "weaktight, predictable and fishy" would be a better description.

dougee19

we totally play different styles so i cant really comment and im not the one you probably want commenting here anyway....

personally i dont like bottom sets with straights all over it, you say that you think that they wont put you on a bluff most of the time...
but realistically, what is he calling on the flop that you are beating on the turn or river??
i hate bottom sets in the position and would be more than likely happy to fold on the turn or river here, i would probably just collapse on the turn instead of betting, i really dont see what good can come from a turn bet.....

dougee19

The_Prof wrote:

Btw, a few points of note:

1. I was planning on "bluffing" the river all-in. I figure he would fold a set which is his most likely holding a decent % of the time. Sometimes he might call, but I think it's +EV. I dont think I make too much on average vs this guy on a missed flush bluff.

if you fold the turn you have 3200, which isnt bad, you're basically chasing the 800 and risking your whole stack hoping he'd fold and you'd take it some of the times??
the way it was played it isnt actually a bad call, if he was a fish who would call on flush draws then he would have bet the river thinking you had a straight and you would fold, the call on the turn was very dodgy from him and i think there is a small chance he was planning on pushing the river if you checked anyway. representing the higher wrap perhaps

bops

i agree with Dougee has to say :eek:

check/fold turn
get it in OTR as played

PokerPissTaker

Believe it or not I think DougEe is right, once he makes the call on the flop You surely have to put him on a str with no redraw or a higher set. Even if you put him on 2 pr the river pairing the flop propably gets him home anyway as its unlikely he has a 3 as you have two of them in your hand.

dougee19

bops wrote:

i agree with Dougee has to say :eek:

PokerPissTaker wrote:

Believe it or not I think DougEe is right

woah.... how the tides have turned!!!!!


p.s. thanks to the right spelling

bops

...it's usually a bad sign when i agree with someone

dougee19

bops wrote:

...it's usually a bad sign when i agree with someone

shhhhh, the newbies dont know that, lol....
plus its the first compliment ive gotten, let me have it in peace!!!

Flipper

Alex I think you got married here and you had a perfect opportunity to fold on the flop when you were raised. It is such a marginal situation and it's a position I often find myself in. I feel that you will never be dominating someone here but will often be a dog yourself. With the 45xx being the nuts at the time and a wrap/type type hand being in great shape against you, I'd like to find better spots.

Ignore all of the above. I misread the original post

dougee19

Flipper wrote:

you had a perfect opportunity to fold on the flop when you were raised.

he wasnt raised... he re-raised

Flipper

dougee19 wrote:

he wasnt raised... he re-raised

Right you are. Ok, ignore my previous post as it won't make much sense. Ok the villain played this really weird so I don't think you can account for his actions. I like your raise on the flop more so because you have 44xx than a set of 3's. Being OOP for the rest of the hand is a disaster as you probably expected to get HU with Robin Keston. I probably play this the same way with the 9 on the turn (fancy him for 89xx with clubs tbh). River is a good check (gives him a chance to bluff at it) and I would always think I was ahead here.

This is a cooler. End of story

smoothcall

Ye i like the way you played this. The reraise with the blockers 44 and bottom set is nice. the turn card was dangerous, id sometimes slow down sometimes pot. This is where he plays it strange , i wouldnt expect him to call with just the set, so you have to check call when the board pairs.

PokerPissTaker

I dont think it was a cooler, I think the hand was dead after he calls the raise. I like the raise very much and highly respect the profs play in general But I think the the hand should have ended there Especially when the turn complete one of the possible draws he might be on. Its just my opinion.

dougee19

PokerPissTaker wrote:

I dont think it was a cooler, I think the hand was dead after he calls the raise. I like the raise very much and highly respect the profs play in general But I think the the hand should have ended there Especially when the turn complete one of the possible draws he might be on. Its just my opinion.

i agree with this, and since the prof posted this i think he kinda does too, it was tough to get off of but i wouldnt consider it a total cooler tbh

MrPillowTalk

I think you should get away from this river given your description of the villain, any hand you beat is checking the river imo.

cardshark202

I think flipper has it spot on here. Cooler imo.

DopeyLocks

3 major points being overlooked here!

1: 3344 at 25/50 is the same as A5os in holdem major major loosing hand

2: how many 4's are there in a deck of cards??????????????? this is not 1/2
the guy could have 45xx ar even the dreaded 4567

3: why not check the turn??

I dont play the hand preflop at these levels unless in posiotioin and heads up and if i did play it i play identical to the turn and head for the hills from then on

Dopey

NickyOD

DopeyLocks wrote:

3 major points being overlooked here!

1: 3344 at 25/50 is the same as A5os in holdem major major loosing hand

I dont play the hand preflop at these levels unless in posiotioin and heads up and if i did play it i play identical to the turn and head for the hills from then on

Dopey

He checked his Big blind with it. folding would be -EV

PokerPissTaker

Even if its his BB Bottom set on a str board with a fella calling pot reraises is a shut down moment for me There nothing you can be beating bar a wrap around the top which gets there on the turn.

dougee19

wtf??? :S
trying to increase your posts???

Marq

The_Prof wrote:

2. The fact that RKESTON lead this pot, pushed me towards making the call, because he was leading a lot of pots with twopair type hands. Here, he clearly didn't have the straight, probably didn't have a flush draw either as he's probably checking to try get turn card cheap enough. So, the fact board paired as well as Keston's bet suggested less likelihood he had a set...

Problem is that a lot of two pair hands just got there! Also given the action a set is much more likely than two pair: he's called the flop raise, and a big bet on the turn, now he leads the river.
tbh I'm surprised he called the turn: and given that he didn't raise you when the straight hit it's possible that he has some sort of combo hand.

I like the flop raise when you have the blockers in your hand as well as a set, and the turn lead is alright because checking basically gives up the hand and there's a strong chance we're ahead.

I think you probably have to call the river for value. Flush draw might bluff, straight from the turn might bet.

P.S. In future don't post the results!

The_Prof

WOW, I didn´t expect people´s opinions to be so different to mine on this hand.

dougee19 wrote:

we totally play different styles so i cant really comment and im not the one you probably want commenting here anyway....

personally i dont like bottom sets with straights all over it, you say that you think that they wont put you on a bluff most of the time...
but realistically, what is he calling on the flop that you are beating on the turn or river??
i hate bottom sets in the position and would be more than likely happy to fold on the turn or river here, i would probably just collapse on the turn instead of betting, i really dont see what good can come from a turn bet.....

Umm, he could have been calling with the nut flush draw. This guy was bad, I wouldn´t expect him to lay that down on the flop, perhaps on the turn...but I can´t know that before I bet.

Also, it´s EXTREMELY significant that I´ve turned a flush draw. This means that even if the guy did indeed have the wrap on the turn, I still cannot check-fold, so to bet even if there´s a decent enough % of the time when he will have the straight on the turn is still correct.

What good can come from a turn bet?

1. Not giving him a free card to hit his flush draw if he´s drawing.

2. Continuing to represent the straight, and if the board doesn´t pair on the river, bluff out 66xx or 77xx having won a PSB on the turn.

if you fold the turn you have 3200, which isnt bad, you're basically chasing the 800 and risking your whole stack hoping he'd fold and you'd take it some of the times??
the way it was played it isnt actually a bad call, if he was a fish who would call on flush draws then he would have bet the river thinking you had a straight and you would fold, the call on the turn was very dodgy from him and i think there is a small chance he was planning on pushing the river if you checked anyway. representing the higher wrap perhaps

Why would I fold the turn? I have got a flush draw, a set, blockers that allow me to represent the straight, and a gutshot straight draw (albeit to a low one). Most of these outs, I believe to be good. Folding the turn would be criminal.

The call on the end is the one thing I feel I did misplay, and maybe betting pot on the turn, because I´d be quite concerned that he might just see so much money in the pot that he´ll call the river...


Onto flipper...

Right you are. Ok, ignore my previous post as it won't make much sense. Ok the villain played this really weird so I don't think you can account for his actions. I like your raise on the flop more so because you have 44xx than a set of 3's. Being OOP for the rest of the hand is a disaster as you probably expected to get HU with Robin Keston. I probably play this the same way with the 9 on the turn (fancy him for 89xx with clubs tbh). River is a good check (gives him a chance to bluff at it) and I would always think I was ahead here.

This is a cooler. End of story

1. I don´t think given my description of villain that he played the hand weird at all. His thought process is simple. He would have repotted the flop with the nut straight, but as he didnt have the nuts and I was quite tight, he simply flat called.

2. On the turn, he continued this thought process, but once the river completed his house he quickly stuck his chips in the middle, hoping to get a call from the hand he expects me to have (the straight).

3. I did NOT expect to get HU with RKESTON. He´s incredibly aggressive, and would bet that flop 80% of the time. In fact, I would occasionally bluff-raise there. I expect him to fold almost all the time. The rest of the time he will have the straight, will almost certainly reraise me, and I won´t have a tricky turn decision to deal with if I were to flat call the flop and either a club, or a wrap card hit on the turn, or even a blank!

4. The river check is pretty standard. But, given that this player was unimaginative, I don´t think he bluffs here often enough to make the call profitable. I mean, I know that I´m getting something like 4-1 or so, which means all I need to do is win the hand 20% of the time, but I don´t think I can even expect that. vs this villain, perhaps 2% of the time is more realistic. I´m not even sure if that´s optimistic, I had played with this guy for quite some time, and he had checked down perfect bluffing opportunities. The river bluff just did not seem to form a part of his arsenal. Also, I feel this guy would probably have folded the turn with only a flush draw, and his hands were really wrap (with which he would have raised the turn after filling), set (which he would play EXACTLY like he did) and flush draw (which he would probably fold for a PSB on the turn).

The_Prof

DopeyLocks wrote:

3 major points being overlooked here!

1: 3344 at 25/50 is the same as A5os in holdem major major loosing hand

2: how many 4's are there in a deck of cards??????????????? this is not 1/2
the guy could have 45xx ar even the dreaded 4567

3: why not check the turn??

I dont play the hand preflop at these levels unless in position and heads up and if i did play it i play identical to the turn and head for the hills from then on

Dopey

1. Not when the flop comes down 367, and you´re in position vs the tricky player, whereas the other guy is the weak link.

2. Yeah, but on the flop when I raise, and the original bettor folds and the other guy (extremely predictable) only flatcalls, I know he doesn´t have the nuts, but he must think I do, and the unafraid Potsized turn bet should reinforce this opinion, and hopefully set up an all-in on the river that will fold out any sets (unless of course board pairs)

3. dougee19 thought this too, but like I said i was setting up a possible river all-in, and also I was never check-folding the turn with my flush draw as well as my gutshot straight draw. (i.e. if he has the wrap, i have board pairing and hearts --- if he has a set, i have straight draw and hearts and quads). If he has a set and a wrap with a higher flush draw, THEN it´s a cooler

I think you should get away from this river given your description of the villain, any hand you beat is checking the river imo.

MrPillowTalk seems to be just about the only one who I agree with!

dougee19

The_Prof wrote:

Why would I fold the turn? I have got a flush draw, a set, blockers that allow me to represent the straight, and a gutshot straight draw (albeit to a low one). Most of these outs, I believe to be good. Folding the turn would be criminal.

as you probably guessed didnt see the flush draw, i would have played roughly the same way, i just dont like betting pot a lot in those situations so would have written in some awkward number as i do....
yeah that was a tough hand to get off in the situation, you couldnt get off the hand really just the bet sizes got you involved....
thats why i dont like pot bets in omaha unless im drunk or on tilt