Labour Party

11.3 SECONDS

I need a little background information please for perspective.

What is the political provenance or background of the entity that merged with Labour known as Democratic Left previously known as Sinn Fein the Workers Party ? Who were they and where did they stand policitcally ?

28064212

Use Wikipedia - Workers Party, Democratic Left, Labour

Dirk Gently

workers party / democratic left

Workers party is a hard left group which split from the IRA and were known to speak fondly of the Soviet Union. DL was an effort to move away from those positions. The current Labour party is a centre / right of centre party and has little resemblance to either WP / DL or even their own origins from Connolly and Larkin. I think it's safe to say a vote for labour will not be a vote for paramilitary fund raising or and end to capitalism.

28064212

clown bag wrote:

The current Labour party is a centre / right of centre party...

WTF? I can understand a little bit of disillusionment with the Left's softening of its stance from the Marxist policies of yesterday, but to describe Labour as anything other than left-wing (especially in modern Ireland) is taking the piss

The_Minister

Maybe they're just pretending to have abandoned all their beliefs...until they get into government......then, BAM! the old fork in the eye.

Seriously though, Labour shouldn't even be calling themselves Labour anymore. They have some hard-left currents still in the party, but these never have a majority at Ard Fheis's. Rabitte may have to do something to keep them quiet (they hate him), but we won't see a socialist nationalising of the banks any time soon.
Although, the recent right-wing shift in Labour has really only been during the election. They were condemning tax breaks up until about four months before the election, so they may try to backpedal on the right-wing rhetoric, but not too much.

brianthebard

28064212 wrote:

WTF? I can understand a little bit of disillusionment with the Left's softening of its stance from the Marxist policies of yesterday, but to describe Labour as anything other than left-wing (especially in modern Ireland) is taking the piss

Agreed, I know they've become quite close to centre but there's no doubt that they are still on the left of centre. Any other suggestion is having a laugh tbh.

The_Minister

brianthebard wrote:

Agreed, I know they've become quite close to centre but there's no doubt that they are still on the left of centre.

Actually using left-right to refer solely to economics, then Labour are right-wing.

Dirk Gently

Jasus Minister, looks like we agree on something political. :eek:

Labour + FG will be a right wing government. Labour on it's own is centre at best dispite the socialist sounding language. Maybe people are thinking of the Labour youth party when describing Labour as left wing?

Lennoxschips

ireland would do well to end up with a competent government, whether it be right or left...

mike65

So true, the ecomomic left/right ideological argument is dead in the polictal mainstream. Competence is now what matters. Oh well we're fupped then!

Mike.

Dirk Gently

mike65 wrote:

So true, the ecomomic left/right ideological argument is dead in the polictal mainstream. Competence is now what matters. Oh well we're fupped then!

Mike.

I agree, it's no longer a choice between right and left as the global market dictates the direction we must take nationally to survive. Brian Cowan hit the nail on the head there a few minutes ago on RTE when asked would people vote for change just for the sake of a change. He replied by saying,

" change is not an issue, it's all about managing the change that is inevitable".

28064212

Who do you think is going to be more likely to privatise Public Transport, Healthcare and every other state-run body? At least Labour will manage public spending a lot more effectively than Fianna Fáil and not hope that the private sector picks up the slack. The increase of private schools and the National Treatment Purchase Fund is the start of a very slippery slope. Having a significant Labour presence in government is the only likely scenario which will ameliorate the problem. Sinn Féin aren't going to get into power any time soon. The Socialists only have 4 people running. And the Greens just don't have the power

Dirk Gently

28064212 wrote:

Who do you think is going to be more likely to privatise Public Transport, Healthcare and every other state-run body?

FG and PD's would be most likely IMO.

28064212 wrote:

At least Labour will manage public spending a lot more effectively than Fianna Fáil and not hope that the private sector picks up the slack.

will they?

28064212 wrote:

The increase of private schools and the National Treatment Purchase Fund is the start of a very slippery slope.

I agree.

28064212 wrote:

Having a significant Labour presence in government is the only likely scenario which will ameliorate the problem.

I'm far from convinced of that.

28064212 wrote:

Sinn Féin aren't going to get into power any time soon.

I wouldn't bet against them at this stage but if they do get in they will immediatly fall in line and drop the whole lefty angle.

28064212 wrote:

The Socialists only have 4 people running.

With two realistic chances of getting elected. That's two left wing seats labour gave away.

28064212 wrote:

And the Greens just don't have the power

If they form the government I can see them having more of a green influence than labour having a left influence tbh. Any lefty influence in labour will be nullified by FG. I'm hoping the greens do form part of the government because I think the hard decisions on the environment need to be addressed sooner rather than later.

If labour truely were a left wing party then Sinn Fein among others wouldn't be taking all their vote. I wish Labour was in a position to be the major party in government but their shift to the right is costing them seats by allowing smaller lefty candidates to get in on the back of claims that labour have sold out.

As I said anyway, it's all irrelevant really. The lack of a real economy beyond construction (soon to decline) and excessive credit (debt) means it's more of the same, low corporation tax, privitisation, a race to the bottom to keep our competitive edge. Spending will be cut back as the economy slows down and Labour will have to defend against working class people complaining about all the things they complain about under FF / PD.

28064212

clown bag - what government do you want to see after the election? I would love to see the Socialists in power, but barring they pull 81 perfect candidates out of Joe Higgins' ass, it's not going to happen. One of FF or FG are going to be the major party in any coalition. The government which I think will perform best for public services, given the situation, is Fine Gael/Labour (and if a minor miracle happens, a couple of Socialists to make up the majority). Fianna Fáil's record over the last decade in the provision of public services is abysmal, and Labour (the left-most of the big three) will have more power if they go in with Fine Gael.

nesf

28064212 wrote:

WTF? I can understand a little bit of disillusionment with the Left's softening of its stance from the Marxist policies of yesterday, but to describe Labour as anything other than left-wing (especially in modern Ireland) is taking the piss

Labour is essentially centre-right wing economics couched in social democratic language.

Dirk Gently

You'll be glad to know I will infact be voting Labour, although I wont be transferring to FG. It's not out of any illusion that they will some how be much different to the current government. I think economic events in this country are beyond national control and limit any government in what it can do. I will just be voting for them because, as you say, they are the least cut throat out of all the right wing options and perhaps the burden on ordinary people will be slightly less felt with labour making up the numbers. I actually think Labour would have more influence with FF btw.

I just think Labour is the smallest of the big three because they allow others to steal their vote so easily by moving to the right. FF and FG have the right vote with the pd's taking the radical right vote. There's no room for labour on that side of the axis to realistically challange the big two. I would rather see a strong labour party leading a government rather than an indifferent one making up the numbers. I think the pact with FG was a mistake and they should have fought the election on their own merits, similar to what the greens have done. Then we might have seen a shift in the balance of power in labours favour, increasing their seats after the election putting them in a stronger position, perhaps even becoming the second biggest party as opposed to the third biggest.

How many seats do you reckon labour will have lost / not gained, to smaller parties and even to FF as a result of the FG pact?

nesf

clown bag wrote:

How many seats do you reckon labour will have lost / not gained, to smaller parties and even to FF as a result of the FG pact?

Personally I think they've lost "left votes" to Sinn Fein et al but have gained centre and right "protest" votes that will make up for this to some extent. Where they might do well is in the centre-right from dissatisfied FF voters who find FG uncomfortably authoritarian/traditional for their tastes.

Dirk Gently

nesf wrote:

Where they might do well is in the centre-right from dissatisfied FF voters who find FG uncomfortably authoritarian/traditional for their tastes.

I think the amount of votes they lose because some people find FG uncomfortably authoritarian/traditional for their tastes will be greater tbh.

nesf

clown bag wrote:

I think the amount of votes they lose because some people find FG uncomfortably authoritarian/traditional for their tastes will be greater tbh.

*shrugs*

We'll find out soon enough.

Victor Meldrew

Lennoxschips wrote:

ireland would do well to end up with a competent government, whether it be right or left...

And we know that FF won't deliver competence, despite 10 years practice...

the whole left / right thing with Lab vs FG is a red herring, basically FG, FF & LAB are all centerist parties, only the PD's are a little bit right wing. All FG will do is beef up garda numbers. If we get FF out you can bet that FG & Lab will want to stay in for the next election in 2012, not just self destruct 3 years in...

28064212

Victor Meldrew wrote:

the whole left / right thing with Lab vs FG is a red herring, basically FG, FF & LAB are all centerist parties, only the PD's are a little bit right wing.

A little bit right wing? The PDs are way over to the right, they just have a slightly closer to centre image because of the fact that they've spent so much time in a "Progressive Fáil" partnership. If they ever got any real power, we wouldn't have any public services, never mind the crap they've made of the health services.

Labour may not be as left-wing as they used to be, but they're still the furthest left of the three major party

The_Minister

Victor Meldrew wrote:

the whole left / right thing with Lab vs FG is a red herring, basically FG, FF & LAB are all centerist parties, only the PD's are a little bit right wing. All FG will do is beef up garda numbers. If we get FF out you can bet that FG & Lab will want to stay in for the next election in 2012, not just self destruct 3 years in...

FG/Lab have never lasted more then 38 months and they have never been re-elected. If Enda gets in, I can see him as being a two-year Taoiseach (especially since some of the old high-profile FG'ers may be coming back).

Also, VM, one of the reasons that people think that left-right may cause a split in the coalition, is that FG are more right-wing then FF. They are actually very close to the PDs. So, its not as simple as "they're all in the centre, it'll be grand".
However, they have lasted for several years before, so the problem is not insurmountable, it's just not something that should be ignored.

28064212

The_Minister wrote:

...is that FG are more right-wing then FF

Don't agree with that. It may have been true in the past, but with FF/PDs establishing themselves firmly as the right-wing coalition, FG have been dragged to the... OK not the left, but further centre than FF

The_Minister

28064212 wrote:

Don't agree with that. It may have been true in the past, but with FF/PDs establishing themselves firmly as the right-wing coalition, FG have been dragged to the... OK not the left, but further centre than FF

I completely disagree with you. FG are way more right wing than FF. In economics terms, and in the old "hang 'em and flog 'em" sort of way.

redspider

I didnt read this full thread, but from a Labour point of view, they must be worried internally that the swing away from FF and PD which is expected is not resulting in any gains for the Labour party in terms of seats. Still at 19 or 20 or 21. That may be down to the close balance of the seats in the various constituencies and the inability to convert say increases of 1.1 quotas to 1.5 quotas into 2 seats.

Are Labour worried by this?

One point which I didnt get across on other threads is that many many voters vote based on personality/character and the person rather than the party. eg: Lowry, Stagg, O'Dea, Roche, etc, etc. Labour for me seems to be lacking 'big names' and people with track records in politics to pull in those 2nd seats where they have sitting TD's and pull in a first seat where they have none.

For example, Sligo/N.Leitrim (3-seats), Labour (and the GP for that matter) are way way down the pecking order and even if they get an increase, it will not give them a seat. Its likely to end up 2xFF, 1xFG, which is the same as the outgoing I understand or is that an FF gain from an Independent (Harkin?), I forget what happened there last time, or it could end up 1xFF and 2xFG:

John Perry FG
Jimmy Devins FF
Eamon Scanlon FF
Michael Comiskey FG

Others:
Sean McManus SF
Imelda Henry FG
Andy Mcsharry lnd
Jimmy McGarry Lab

We have a very fragmented system which is not helping Labour imo.

Redspider