Taoiseach's academic record

Senator

Further to the thread on the Taoiseach's claimed and speculated third-level educational qualifications which was closed by the Mod before formal research into these matters was completed, the following is the text of an email I received this morning from the London School of Economics and Political Science (with which Mr Ahern has previously been linked in the media and elsewhere either though his own claims or others' claims on his behalf) which I bring to your notice in the public interest :

"Dear Dr ......... , (I am a doctor, you see)

After a search on our database I cannot find a record of his attendance at LSE. If he attended in the 80s or 70s we may only have a paper record in the case of his actually been awarded a degree. Thus we would need you to let us know as nearly as possible what degree is supposed to have been awarded and when.

Regards,

Daniel Peel
Senior Registry Assistant "

I am, of course, attempting to obtain the necessary information, with little help from sources from which one would (quite reasonably) expect such assistance. In response to urgings from other posters and on my own initiative, I contacted both the Department of the Taoiseach and UCD (which Mr Ahern lists on his academic biography on his Department's official website) at the same time as I contacted the LSE. To date, I have only received acknowledgements from both in response to my perfectly legitimate, public interest, enquiries.

(Mod please note, media also following this story.)

Money Shot

Fair Play. I don't think anyone cares whether a leader has certain academic qualifications if he can do the job properly without them. However, if they can be shown to have essentially not been completely accurate on their CV and don't move to clarify it, his integrity must be called into question.

Anyway, if it came out that he only has his inter cert - he would surge in popularity for being more of a man for the people. It is frightening how he remains so popular...

Glenbhoy

Given the reaction to the lies he has recently told the nation about more important issues, like his finances for example, I don't think we're going to get too worked up about a few little white lies on his cv.

Senator

I'm not in the least "worked up". However, I thought that it was interesting (shall we put it no stronger than that?) that when Bertie Ahern's PUBLISHED academic biography was queried the wagons were quickly circled and it's like trying to get blood from a stone to have his claims about obtaining qualifications from UCD and the LSE confirmed. What's the big problem, I wonder ?

I certainly do NOT think that a person needs a glowing academic record to be elected to or succeed in public office. However, I do believe that "discrepancies" in academic achievements claimed by a Head of Government are somewhat more than "little white lies".

Seth Brundle

If it is shown that our taoiseach has lied about his education then more than likely his popularity rating will go up yet again :rolleyes:

Senator

It probably will ! And then we can let all the kids out of the schools and tell them not to mind about getting certificates and degrees and that sort of nonsense because they can just stick a few doctorates or whatever on the oul CV and employers will be none the wiser and unable to check it out anyway.

Money Shot

It's also very interesting that it is so difficult to get a straight answer on this.

I'm not getting 'worked up' over it either, but I think it is important that we know what kind of man we have entrusted to run the country for ten years. Surely, it is the most important job in the country.

I wonder would everyone be so indifferent to this if the doctor that was operating on you 'fluffed' his qualifications, or the Pilot that was flying the plane you were in 'exagerrated' some of this qualifications on his CV, or the swimming coach down right lied on his CV to get a job in the local pool.

Seth Brundle

Money Shot wrote:

I wonder would everyone be so indifferent to this if the doctor that was operating on you 'fluffed' his qualifications, or the Pilot that was flying the plane you were in 'exagerrated' some of this qualifications on his CV, or the swimming coach down right lied on his CV to get a job in the local pool.

In all fairness, the three examples you site are all positions where peoples lives could be endangered whereas being Taoiseach, a post that requires no qualifications, does not directly affect peoples safety.

Heinrich

kbannon wrote:

In all fairness, the three examples you site are all positions where peoples lives could be endangered whereas being Taoiseach, a post that requires no qualifications, does not directly affect peoples safety.

His lack of integrity can affect the health of the nation!

Judt

With regards to his education, I can see him lying about it because I've seen many other people do the same. It's not entirely uncommon to dress up your CV. Anyone here who claims to have never done so in any way can have a sainthood or a lollipop, depending on personal preference. It's in a different league to tax evasion. If he had no education and became the leader of this country, well, I'd have more respect for him (presuming he can do the job.)

latenia

This is pretty old stuff. Bertie used an ambiguous statement in official biographical material describing his academic qualifications both at UCD and LSE; something along the lines of 'he attended'. To most people this would suggest a degree taken but of course, it definitely doesn't specify this either. After a fuss a couple of years ago these references were removed.

I'm quite sure his LSE and UCD attendance consisted of a short series of lectures or a summer school carrying no qualification.

Again, I'm open to correction here, but he does have a Leaving Cert. and some accountancy training/certificate.

Jonny Arson

I hardly think this coming up at the doorsteps either

InFront

Nice one Senator

And then we can let all the kids out of the schools and tell them not to mind about getting certificates and degrees and that sort of nonsense because they can just stick a few doctorates or whatever on the oul CV and employers will be none the wiser and unable to check it out anyway.

True, and I'm not sure how many schoolkids pay attention to it, but it's not the kind of signal the Taoiseach should be giving out. It may not be (nor should it be) an election issue, but if there are false claims they should be corrected

I would think more of a genuine alumnus from the London School of Economics than someone who had left school at sixteen and faked qualifications along the way. It's for academic reasons that many often hold politicians like McDowell and Alan Shatter in high regard - it is a genuine factor in weighing up a candidate's motivation, competence and personal ability, just like it would be considered in any other job.

Faking a third level qualification is cheating those who do work hard to be awarded such a thing.

Seth Brundle

At the same time I don't think qualifications are that relevant when it comes to FF.
e.g. www.indymedia.ie/article/73337

InFront

The less they know about archaeology, the more likely they'll be to disregard old bits of "buried scrap" under a future motorway, maybe:p

InFront

InFront wrote:

Nice one Senator

What if he does have some papers from LSE,will you still say nice one? You wouldnt have your mind made up there already by any chance?
Do you think accusing first and accounting later is fair justice?

True, and I'm not sure how many schoolkids pay attention to it, but it's not the kind of signal the Taoiseach should be giving out. It may not be (nor should it be) an election issue, but if there are false claims

So far senator has found out that there is no electronic record of Ahern having anything from LSE.I could probably have told senator that given that Ahern has been a full time T.D since 1977

I would think more of a genuine alumnus from the London School of Economics than someone who had left school at sixteen and faked qualifications along the way. It's for academic reasons that many often hold politicians like McDowell and Alan Shatter in high regard - it is a genuine factor in weighing up a candidate's motivation, competence and personal ability, just like it would be considered in any other job.

Well there are millionaires you know who didnt do the leaving cert.

Faking a third level qualification is cheating those who do work hard to be awarded such a thing.

Have you considered that a diploma from either of these institutions could be from a simple night course on something or other.
If the FF website claimed he was a medical doctor or held a degree from one of those,I'd see the point in this ridicule.

McSandwich

Judt wrote:

With regards to his education, I can see him lying about it because I've seen many other people do the same. It's not entirely uncommon to dress up your CV. Anyone here who claims to have never done so in any way can have a sainthood or a lollipop, depending on personal preference. It's in a different league to tax evasion. If he had no education and became the leader of this country, well, I'd have more respect for him (presuming he can do the job.)

Unfortunatley that's typical of the Irish mentality - all credit goes to the chancer who does good. The 'what good did qualifications ever do? sure isn't hard work just for eejits' attitude.

Honest hard working politicians with integrity will never have a chance while the likes of Bertie is still around

InFront

Tristrame wrote:

What if he does have some papers from LSE,will you still say nice one?

Of course. I'm hardly a McDowell fan, for example, but as I said, I do think more of McDowell because of his academic background and his abilities.

Do you think accusing first and accounting later is fair justice?

What accusation? I said that faking a qualification was something the Taoiseach shouldn't do, I didn't say he did so, regardless of what I happen to believe.

Well there are millionaires you know who didnt do the leaving cert.

I'm sure there are, I don't think I have a personal opinion on people who are millionaires, it's not something that would swing my respect for them on its own.

If the FF website claimed he was a medical doctor or held a degree from one of those,I'd see the point in this ridicule.

Why? A degree holder from L.S.E. is more likely to have qualifications far more significant to Government and administration than a medical degree holder, which claims nothing about political competence and knowledge.

Judt

McSandwich wrote:

Unfortunatley that's typical of the Irish mentality - all credit goes to the chancer who does good. The 'what good did qualifications ever do? sure isn't hard work just for eejits' attitude.

Honest hard working politicians with integrity will never have a chance while the likes of Bertie is still around

I daresay it takes more hard work to be a success without an education than with it, as the statistics show.

InFront

And I daresay it's harder to get a place at the London School of Economics than to not get one.

latenia

kbannon wrote:

At the same time I don't think qualifications are that relevant when it comes to FF.
e.g. www.indymedia.ie/article/73337

Ah, another mindless drone who takes any nonsense written on indymedia and funnels it into their narrow 'if anything is bad it's Fianna Fail's fault' worldview. What part did any member of the government have in that decision apart from the rubber stamping following a recommendation from the experts themselves?

If you wanted to look at ludicrous appointments you could start with Celia Larkin or perhaps Bertie's completely unqualified brother in law being made an Appeals Commissioner (a truly shocking and scandalous piece of nepotism considering the importance of the job.)

InFront

InFront wrote:

Of course. I'm hardly a McDowell fan, for example, but as I said, I do think more of McDowell because of his academic background and his abilities. I'm sure there are, I don't think I have a personal opinion on people who are millionaires, it's not something that would swing my respect for them on its own.

With respect, I regard that as academic snobbery to be frank.There are plenty of successfull people who could buy and sell academics through money earned from sucessfull business's without a degree.

What accusation? I said that faking a qualification was something the Taoiseach shouldn't do, I didn't say he did so, regardless of what I happen to believe.

You are implying it.After all if you don't doubt Ahern before the evidence is shown,you wouldn't be partial to a result of your liking.Personally I've moved away myself from this kind of muck.

Why? A degree holder from L.S.E. is more likely to have qualifications far more significant to Government and administration than a medical degree holder, which claims nothing about political competence and knowledge.

I doubt FG completely ignored Dr Liam Twomey's qualifications when they made him their spokes person on health him actually having no previous experience of being a T.D and all.

McSandwich

Judt wrote:

I daresay it takes more hard work to be a success without an education than with it, as the statistics show.

This is true, and some naturally talented people will always be good at what they do regardless of education. I wouldn't knock him for getting where he did through hard work and despite his education, but I think the fact that he 'got away with it' will be lapped up by the 'poor Bertie' crowd..

28064212

Judt wrote:

I daresay it takes more hard work to be a success without an education than with it, as the statistics show.

That's probably true. Unless of course you lie about having one

InFront

Tristrame wrote:

uccessfull people who could buy and sell academics through money earned from sucessfull business's without a degree.

Sure. All I'm saying is that I personally prefer representatives who are academically clever, seeing as how they are the policy makers who direct the economic and social future of the state.
As for private businessmen who get rich without degrees, that's fine, but it's a seperate issue. It's really none of my business what qualifications they have anyway, or what state their finances are in.

if you don't doubt Ahern before the evidence is shown,you wouldn't be partial to a result of your liking.

Evidence not being shown is the problem. If you had a degree from a world famous institution like LSE, would you not mention it on your official Government CV, next to UCD?

I doubt FG completely ignored Dr Liam Twomey's qualifications

That doesn't mean it was relevant. A degree from LSE is huge asset for the director of a company, let alone the Irish economy and state.

InFront

InFront wrote:

A degree from LSE is huge asset for the director of a company, let alone the Irish economy and state.

Well that depends on the company.
I was just fighting the corner for the people who work hard and who are inteligent and in a lot of cases more inteligent/sucessfull than those who hold degree's.
I could be wrong but as an extreme example I think Bill Gates didnt finish Harvard but rather went on to use his own interests and see where that got him.
He's no daw.

chump

Tristrame wrote:

Well that depends on the company.
I was just fighting the corner for the people who work hard and who are inteligent and in a lot of cases more inteligent/sucessfull than those who hold degree's.
I could be wrong but as an extreme example I think Bill Gates didnt finish Harvard but rather went on to use his own interests and see where that got him.
He's no daw.

Are you missing the point and just fancy having a bit of a rant?

The point is if it is found to be untrue it can then be concluded that he lied about it. Simple as.

chump

chump wrote:

The point is if it is found to be untrue it can then be concluded that he lied about it. Simple as.

I wasnt disputing that,I was objecting to the treat him as guilty first and explain later mentality.

If it was "simple as"- there'd be no justice.

Senator

Quick update :

UCD student records have replied with a simple email - "No record found".

No response whatsoever from the Department of the Taoiseach despite a reminder.

Senator

Final update (as I'm quitting Boards.ie) :

Despite TWO reminders the Department of the Taoiseach will not answer. This is public service Fianna Fáil-style for you.

cm2000

InFront wrote:

Sure. All I'm saying is that I personally prefer representatives who are academically clever, seeing as how they are the policy makers who direct the economic and social future of the state.
.

like a primary school teacher?