What to do with AA and what do we put the other guy on?

The_Chopper

Effective stacks everyone has around 600.

Player A limps
Player B limps
Player C (very good aggressive player) calls
Player D (tight aggressive player) raises to 15 with AxAx
Player A calls
Player B calls
Player C calls

Flop K J 5 rainbow (pot 65)
Player A checks
Player B checks
Player C leads for 45
Player D raises to 100 with AA
Player A&B fold
Player C dwells up and reraises to 250 leaving 300ish behind

If you were player D what next (is this an easy fold)- what are we putting player C on?

Very interested to hear peoples opinions on this - happened recently in a live cash game and there was a lot of arguements as to the way this hand played out

Primewise

He probably put you on AK. So since he limped preflop, his post-flop bet would probably be made with 1 of the following hands: -

55
KJ
Q10
KQ if he thought you didnt have at least top pair - but that would be a reckless move on his part.

You are behind in the first two instances, and you are roughly 70% to win against the straight draw.

If he had no more money behind him I would call based on pot odds, but I would not risk my entire stack in this situation, potentially costing up to 550 to find out. I would reluctantly fold...

Primewise

Of course you also have to consider this player's style...

Would he slow play 55? Have you seen him raise with draws, or semi-bluff?

Gholimoli

Is this NL or PL?
If its NL I would raise more preflop.
As played I would not raise the flop bet and certainly wouldn’t min raise it.
As played I would fold this as he is telling you that he has one pair beat .
He can have anything from a set to two pair ,set is less likely as if he has a set its 55 cuz he would raise with KK,JJ pre flop.
KJ is very possible K5 and J5 as well.

earthworms

Gholimoli wrote:

Is this NL or PL?
If its NL I would raise more preflop.
As played I would not raise the flop bet and certainly wouldn’t min raise it.
As played I would fold this as he is telling you that he has one pair beat .
He can have anything from a set to two pair ,set is less likely as if he has a set its 55 cuz he would raise with KK,JJ pre flop.
KJ is very possible K5 and J5 as well.

so gholi youre saying you wouldve called this guy down on every street potentially? that would cost a lot more than 100 bucks.playing it this way has given us real good info. we now are pretty sure we're behind and can fold losing the minimum. i think its gotta be a fold now. Too many hands that beat us and not enough we're beating

phantom_lord

u could just call his bet and fold on the turn when he pots it. that costs u even less!

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

earthworms

if you flat call with A A on that flop that guy could be sittin with K Q K 10 he'll still pot the turn. Why play aces so passively? we found out where we were for 100 bucks thats a result

phantom_lord

earthworms wrote:

if you flat call with A A on that flop that guy could be sittin with K Q K 10 he'll still pot the turn. Why play aces so passively? we found out where we were for 100 bucks thats a result

ok. he has k10, u make it a 100 he folds.
he has a set, u make it a 100, he raises, u fold.

that's a whole lot of negative ev you got there. u don't get any value from worse hands, and lose to better. that's a bad result.

plus if u do this all the time, then you're incredibly easy to bluff.

earthworms

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Grrr. The info bet sucks. Raising to "find out where we are" sucks.

Flat calling is the best thing to do here. We give him the opportunity to bluff at us with top pair or air on the turn. And when we have been outflopped we are allowing ourselves to lose the minimum on the hand.

When you raise that flop bet - it is you who is given out info. He always folds hands we beat if he is any good. He raises like this to stack our AK or AA when he has two pair or better. And he sometimes can bluff us off the best hand given that our range is so well defined.

In short - raising bad. Calling good.

we're lettin a guy with any K or J catch up though. we could easily have the best hand and i think should protect it. I can see what youre saying but i dunno why we have to play so passively with aces just cos someone bet the flop

earthworms

so you guys flat call flop and fold to a pot bet on the turn ya?

phantom_lord

earthworms wrote:

we're lettin a guy with any K or J catch up though. we could easily have the best hand and i think should protect it. I can see what youre saying but i dunno why we have to play so passively with aces just cos someone bet the flop

cause it's the most profitable way of playing it. well, unless u think he'll call a raise and continue with worse, but you're talking about the raise for info not value so that's probably not the case.

phantom_lord

earthworms wrote:

so you guys flat call flop and fold to a pot bet on the turn ya?

no, u reevaluate the turn and play some poker. we have postion so that makes it easier to play.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

earthworms

ok fair enough i just think flat calling makes it very difficult to call a pot bet on a blank turn. It depends a lot on the villain too, and his opinion on us. I dont mind the call actually i just dont think its always the way to play it

smoothcall

i agree with mr . worm here. Reraise is the best move , if this hand had gone the way it usually does, he folds to the reraise and its the corect play.

When he comes over the top we know were beat and can drop our hand. If we just flat call the flop we have no idea where we stand, he bets again on the turn you say your goin to fold. From my experience in irish cash games you wont get very far playing so passively cos people would be pottin again on the turn with a huge range of hands.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

phantom_lord

smoothcall wrote:

you wont get very far playing so passively cos people would be pottin again on the turn with a huge range of hands.

that's hardly a bad thing!

insafehands

Eh, remind me when playing against any of you to re-raise the pot and a little bit more with air!

I don't think there'a anyway you could defo lay this down without having good reads.

We're met with a fair bit of resistence... Ok, but I think we're ahead more often than not.

Gholimoli

I didn’t say call the flop and call the rest of the streets as well and I didn’t say fold either.
You have to be aware that your call here also reveals some information to your opponent and how he plays the next street is based a lot on your actions as well.
Generally people shut down here on the turn with a hand that they think has show down value esp out of position cuz they wanna get to show down as cheap as possible.
So a bet on the turn is often a bluff or a hand that has yours beat.
Its really up to you to decide which is which and that’s where watching players tendencies come in to play.
If he value bets in this spot a lot more than he would bluff then you are safe to fold all the time and if he bluffs a lot more than value bet then you are safe to call all the time.

earthworms

phantom_lord wrote:

u could just call his bet and fold on the turn when he pots it. that costs u even less!

.

The_Chopper

The game was PL - should have included that, max was 15.

Player D actually called the 150 more - most people agree this was horrible play??

Turn came a 6 and now player C shoves the rest of the stack in, as played is this an auto call or should we not now compound our mistake on the flop and fold?

Chucky the tree

Player A limps
Player B limps
Player C (very good aggressive player) calls
Player D (tight aggressive player) raises to 15 with AxAx
Player A calls
Player B calls
Player C calls

Flop K J 5 rainbow (pot 65)
Player A checks
Player B checks
Player C leads for 45
Player D raises to 100 with AA
Player A&B fold
Player C dwells up and reraises to 250 leaving 300ish behind

The way to play it is all read-depend i think. If you dont know the Villian i shove the turn, but i am fairly sure i am drawing dead.

He limps pre-flop, so i think we can rule of AA,AK, KK's, Q's and J's. His range is probaly pocket pairs KQ,KJ's.

If he isnt too sure what the kind of player a hero is like, i only re-raise him with 2 pair or a set.

If you have been playign with this player for a while and he seems solid, i fold, if not i call but i am still pretty sure i am beaten. By a set or two pair. I cant really see how you could be ahead unless he is shoving with KQ which i doubt.

con_leche

So what was the hand?