[US/IRL] 3X20 - "The Man Behind The Curtain" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

Basq

- WARNING: THIS THREAD WILL CONTAIN SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NOT YET SEEN "THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN" -

Episode Title: "The Man Behind The Curtain"
Airdate: May 9th 2007

Synopsis (from TV.Com):

Ben unwillingly divulges information to Locke about the island, taking him on a journey to various locations including strange monuments and the mysterious Jacob. Back at the beach, Juliet's secret is revealed. Flashbacks will show us the origins of DHARMA and the history of the island, including 'the purge'.

Next New Episode: 3X21 -

"Greatest Hits"

- May 16th 2007

---

SPOILER WARNING:

From now on, this thread shall reveal details of the episode mentioned above. If you have not yet seen this episode, please do not move any further down the thread.

This episode shall air on:

ABC (US) - May 9th 2007
Sky One (UK/IRL) - May 14th 2007
RTÉ2 (UK/IRL) - May 15th 2007

If you are sure you have seen the episode as mentioned above (on the channels on those original airdates), you can move down further in order to discuss the episode.

Otherwise, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED - there shall be major plot details of the episode revealed and discussed below with no spoiler tags used!

S.M.B.

Oooooh! Drew Goddard is co-writer. I now have extremely high expectations for this episode.

cousin_borat

7

Good Riddance!!!!

Anima

8

What the hell was that. It answered very little and asked so much more. I need to watch it again really but from what I can remember, it seems Richard isn't aging at all.

He was on the island when Ben was say 10 and looks the same when Ben is 40 or so. Why didn't Ben stay the same age? Now that I think about it, maybe its the same reason that Ben's back didn't heal until Locke showed up. Maybe Ben doesn't have the "island connection" like other people seem to have. Although Ben could see his dead mother and Richard did seem to take an interest in him because of that. I guess time will tell.

Another thing about Richard, why isn't he in control of the Other's? He's been there longer, presumably he's the one who taught Ben whats going on on the Island. There seems to be a whole chunk of story missing between the present day on the Island and the day of the purging imo, if not before that.

Which brings me to the Jacob scene. What the mother ****. That was the weirdest most ambiguous thing I've seen in Lost and I'm kind of annoyed by it. It didn't explain anything about Jacob and just confused things completely.

Another thing I noticed, in the episode where Ben is giving Juliet her instructions, he also gives her a mask similar to the one he had when he killed his father. I'm guessing a similar attack is going to be done to the losties during the raid. If this is the case I can see where the

5 deaths

might happen...

I don't think Locke will die either, he's too important and cool to die

Sad Professor

9

OMG! OMG! What the hell just happened? All my theories are gone out the window again. I was wrong about everything. We're gonna be discussing this episode for a while I reckon.

And before everyone starts asking, he's not dead. He can't be.

And Jacob? WTF?!!?

Brilliant episode 10/10

magick

8

omg Locke is owning ben right now!!!!1dharma symbol

magick

8

omg omg omg that ep was bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbrillant!!!1

abelard

7

Well that was......odd.

The whole Jacob scene seemed a bit contrived though. For some bizarre reason when I saw the empty chair behind the table, I thought there was gonna be a little white rabbit on it! I was thinking "oh dear, he's just a madman", but what actually happened wasn't much better. What the hell do they plan on Jacob being? A ghost? An invisible man? Some sort of God? I will admit though that the scene gave me a chill, which is what the writers were after I suppose.

I've been wondering about Richard's apparent lack of ageing too. Maybe they just didn't want a different actor, and the Richard we saw in the flashback's was supposed to be a much younger Richard. Though he would surely have to be in his 60's or 70's by now, so either way, something weird is going on there.

Ben himself is now verging on madman. He showed a pretty damn malevolent side to help kill off a whole village of people, and his issues with his mum/dad are hardly much of an excuse. I hope we see the history of the 'natives' some time soon (like early next season I suppose), and the time Ben spent rising to power.

As for Locke, he's probably not dead, especially since he heard Jacob and all. I wouldn't really mind if he died though, he's been pretty much a pathetic character since about half way through season 1, but I think they've wrote a bit too much importance into his role to allow him to die just yet.

PullMyFinger!

7

Ok


serious spoiler below for those not yet seen the episode






















look away now if you dont wanna know















For a few frames during the Jacob scene this man was in the chair












and here is the image brightened up



http://www.flickr.com/photos/erins/492084611/




What the fook like?

Faith

9

What?! WHAT?!

First I thought Richard was Jacob, but apparently not. So what's up with Jacob? Why couldn't Locke see him? Why hasn't Richard aged? How did he still manage to look so hot with such weird hair? Why did Ben really shoot Locke? Is he dead? What has Jack decided to do?

Top notch episode. Hard to imagine that the Ben we know and love stemmed from such a pathetic child!

Agh, my head is still spinning!

damnyanks

Maybe once they kill of their old man they stop ageing. Ben hasn't aged since he killed his paw. They wanted lock to do it as well. It's all some sort of test. Given the island can heal a broken back just like that I'm sure a little botox isnt that hard.

abelard

7

PullMyFinger! wrote:

Ok


serious spoiler below...........What the fook like?

Oh Jebus yeah I remember seeing a flash of someone, but I passed it off as being a different angle shot of Ben, then got distracted and forgot to go back and look again. Weird

Also Starring LeVar Burton

9

That was crazy, but brilliant. I really thought Jacob was Ben's imaginary friend. Wow. If they've killed Locke, they've got balls. Funniest thing is, if they don't show Locke in the next 2 episodes, we won't know whether he's alive or not until next February.

Ste.phen

I know a few of these have been covered by others, but i just wrote this for a news group:

So, Jacob is real, and possibly a ghost of some sort?
Jacob wants Locke to help him, from whom? Ben? Is that what the ring of (possible) salt is?

Locke's be shot and given up for dead, but somehow I don't think that's what's going to happen.

How did Ben end up as their leader if Richard seemed to be the original leader before the purge? And why does he not appear to have aged? I'm assuming it's been 15 years or more

Where the hell did they get nerve gas?
What happened to Ben's [girl]friend?
What's Jack's plan?
Will Sayid open a can of whoop ass?
Is patchy going to end up killing Locke if he turns out to not be dead.

Noticed nobody seemed interested in stopping Locke from giving patchy a mighty beat-down.

abelard

7

Igy wrote:

Jacob wants Locke to help him, from whom? Ben? Is that what the ring of (possible) salt is?

What happened to Ben's [girl]friend?

In relation to the first, I thought it was gunpowder, but that's just a guess, it seemed a fair bit darker than salt anyway.

In relation to the latter, I thought when Ben came back to camp after the nerve gas attack, he'd find her body and shed a tear, but no such scene. My guess would be she died there, but maybe she was already dead, perhaps her and Ben tried to have a baby together?

BopNiblets

Only one thing comes to mind after that episode, take it away Gwen:

THIS SH1T IS BANANAS!! B! A! N! A! N! A! S!!11omglolsors

:eek:

dan_y

if they were killing locke off, ben would've fired again.

there was definately someone in that chair. maybe jacob is the island. I thought when everything started to go wacky that it was jacob summoning the black smoke.

ben may not be mental, but he's not taking orders from jacob. he can see him, but he needed locke to hear him.

richard is one of the actual natives. maybe peopke just have a longer lifespan on the island. so whatever age he is, clearly he's still at his physical peak. kinda like wolverine.

that episode did raise a hell of a lot more questions though.

abelard

7

dan_y wrote:

ben may not be mental, but he's not taking orders from jacob. he can see him, but he needed locke to hear him.

But he seemed to be having a conversation with him. Why would he be putting it on if Jacob actually exists (why pretend to convince Locke of his existence when there's no need)? But since we actually saw a glimpse of Jacob, maybe Ben is just a loon, or else it is just all an elaborate ploy, and the whole room shaking and stuff was just a set up (unlikely though surely if Ben went to such lengths to hear what Jacob said to Locke).

dan_y wrote:

richard is one of the actual natives. maybe peopke just have a longer lifespan on the island. so whatever age he is, clearly he's still at his physical peak. kinda like wolverine.

I agree with this. It actually ties in with something I've been thinking for a while (I think I posted it somewhere here in one of the threads). Someone asked "why would they make Sun be pregnant unless the baby was to be born sometime during the show's lifespan?" and that got me thinking. I think the reason why women on the island die is the same reason why some people can heal. I think the island somehow accelerates cellular regeneration (I'm no biologist so that may not be the right term), allowing people to heal faster. Similarly, as the baby grows within the mother, the cellular mitosis and production is accelerated, and the mother's body simply cannot develop along with the baby's growth, so she dies. So to apply it further, it could be with Richard (and maybe all the "original" inhabitants) that the ageing process is slowed or even stopped, and the degeneration experienced as part of ageing is counteracted or even negated by the accelerated regeneration.

I think it's a decent-ish theory, as always there's probably something I overlooked that will render it useless though.

Sad Professor

9

A few thoughts:

- I don't think Ben is the only non-hostile member of the Others. I reckon there's also several recruits á la Juliet and her bookclub.

- I know a lot of people will accuse this episode of answering questions with more questions but I actually think it gets back to many of the mysteries that have been present from the start. We may have only learned of Jacob in name this season but I reckon he's connected to many other mysteries on the island, healing, whispers, visions, etc.

- Big chunks of Ben's backstory were clearly left out to be filled in later on which means *drum roll* Ben's going to survive into next season!! Woohooo!

- The "old place" the Others are going to must be the original home of the Hostiles/natives. I wonder if there's any still living there?

- And if the hostiles don't age perhaps that's is part of a bigger mystery that explains Ethan's super-strength. Maybe he was one of them as well.

Nike_Dude

9

Wow ...... just wow.

Originally Posted by abelard
For some bizarre reason when I saw the empty chair behind the table, I thought there was gonna be a little white rabbit on it!

same here

We definately saw a different, more brutal side to ben in this episode. He also locks to be losing control of his leadership, it seems he wasnt the mastermind behind Richards conversation with locke and allowing locke to take the recording. the scene where locke was beating the crap out of patchy (aside from being totally unexpected and funny) showed that maybe the rest of the others are growing tired with Ben's leadership and they see locke as his potential replacement. If locke had told the others about his 'encounter' with jacob then ben would no longer be the only link to jacob and he could have been overthrown, so I suppose he had to do what was necessary.

Regarding jacob I havent a clue who or what he is, though as sad professor said he seems to be connected with to alot of the islands mysteries.

I doubt its the last we have seen of bens squeeze (Annie??) there must be some reason not to show us her dead body.

interesting that Juliet only told jack of her mission after finding DOC, pretty much proof that he is a gullible idiot for defending her, and bringing her back to camp before this, I really hoped that it was all a master plan he concieved with her ages ago.:rolleyes:

I cant wait till this airs on sunday and the "answering questions with more questions" brigade to start complaining, if we got all the answers what would we have left to argue about;)

Narcissus

9

Amazing epsiode!

It was great to see an explanation about the Mikhail situation.
The Jacob scene. What the hell went on there? He says "Help me" to Locke. Why does he need help?

What a cliffhanger of an ending as well. They can't kill off Locke can they? How will he get out of there?

So many questions! God I can't wait till next week!

abelard wrote:

In relation to the first, I thought it was gunpowder, but that's just a guess, it seemed a fair bit darker than salt anyway.

I thought that it was ash from the volcano.

PiE

7

Enjoyed that.

Still though, I don't get why listening to the other side of the tape suddenly gives Jack and Juliette a goddamn say in anything. They're both morons, I hope Sawyer and Sayid tell them both to shut up, kick them outta the camp and come up with their own plan. Surely Sayid would be a better man to prepare for an attack anyway... what the f*ck would Jack know about defending a base?

I thought that it was ash from the volcano.

For some reason I thought Jacob was gonna be the volcano. I think Ben has somehow stifled Jacob, trapping him in that hut and using him for his own ends. Though judging by the way he tossed Ben around, it would seem that Jacob coulda kill him at any time, so I don't know. Gonna be an interesting end to the season anyway; it's building up to be on-par with the season one ending imo.

upmeath

8

They don't get much better than this... But I still can't discuss Lost until I get these exams and portfolio out of the way!

stevejazzx

Well that was certainly odd.

So someone a long time ago posted in very confident manner saying the Island was controlled/haunted by a very powerful psychic. Interesting. Jacob and Ben seemed to be having an entirely psychic conversation of course there is the possibility that Ben was pretending but I prefer the psychic outlook as it ties in with Walt and the Dharma Initiatives remote viewing study.
Now Ben hears the whispers when corsses fence. These are surely electromagnetic ghosts suspended by the Islands em field, in the words of kelvin, unique geological properties which we now have confirmation were derived from a massive volcanic eruption thousands of years ago.

Ben seeing his mother on the other side suggets that ghosts exists on the other side. Alpert may not have aged becasue he a ghost or exists in another dimension but thats all getting a bit too complicated. We even saw alpert with Juliet back in Portland so perhaps not. The simplest explanation is the islands unique properties keeps them this way.

I don't know what to make of the end with Ben shooting Locke. Considering that Locke has just had his father Killed at the request of Ben and Ben said that he had a communion with the Island, why would Ben do away with him? Why was ben so fascinated with what Locke heard from Jacob if he too can speak to Jacob....wait a minute I think I've just had an idea...what if it was set up, Ben wanted Locke to make him take him to Jacob. Noone has ever heard Jacob. Ben put on the act of speaking to Jacob for Locke because he wanted Locke to believe in Jacob or stay long enough for something to possibly happen. he believes in John Lockes 'communion' with the Island as he said. So obviously if noone has ever heard Jacob ben reckoned that Locke had some kind of chance to.
Which all begs the question who is Jacob.

Anima

8

I was thinking about the beginning again. Ben's parents were in Portland when he was born which is where Mittelos are based. Horace and his gf/wife were just driving through so maybe its just coincidence but I thought Dharma were separate from Richard's group no? Whats the relevance of them being in Portland and is Mittelos connected to Dharma?

Hyzepher

I suppose that Richard's group used Ben to infiltrate Dharma and now they run it - hense the continuation of supply drops etc

Sad Professor

9

Anima wrote:

I was thinking about the beginning again. Ben's parents were in Portland when he was born which is where Mittelos are based. Horace and his gf/wife were just driving through so maybe its just coincidence but I thought Dharma were separate from Richard's group no? Whats the relevance of them being in Portland and is Mittelos connected to Dharma?

I believe the Others are keeping up the appearance that Dharma are still on the island. The Initiative probably doesn't know that all their scientists have been lying dead in a pit for the last decade. That's why Patchy wears the Dharma uniform because he had to communicate with the outside world. They're probably still recruiting people under this guise.

MikeHoncho

9

Awesome. Best episode this series and up there with the best of all 3 seasons. I like that they have given us more questions but also progressed the story. This is what has been lacking recently and we saw some real forward momentum this episode. The most intriguing things are Jacob and Richard. I have a wild theory about Richard... Could he have been aboard the Black Rock. Are the hostiles infact the first people to crash on the Island?Does the ageing process stop for everyone at a certain point?

The Jacob thing im not even going to go into as my mind is spinning from it. Safe to say im glad it wasnt Jacks dad or something boring like that.

Sad Professor

9

MikeHoncho wrote:

I have a wild theory about Richard... Could he have been aboard the Black Rock. Are the hostiles infact the first people to crash on the Island?Does the ageing process stop for everyone at a certain point?

That's what I think too, though it's possible they're there a lot longer. And not everyone's ageing stops, remember Ben's father? There's something else about these hostiles...

stevejazzx

Sad Professor wrote:

I believe the Others are keeping up the appearance that Dharma are still on the island. The Initiative probably doesn't know that all their scientists have been lying dead in a pit for the last decade. That's why Patchy wears the Dharma uniform because he had to communicate with the outside world. They're probably still recruiting people under this guise.

That would make a lot of sense...

MikeHoncho

9

Another thing.. why do the writers seem intent on making everyone on the island have issues with their father. One of the head writers obviously had a real dickmunch for a dad.

Duffman'05

One thing that's really bugging me is;

What's the story with Richard? He's a native, yet he's been to the real world recruiting people like Juliet to work for Dharma??
Does Dharma still exist? Do they know about him posing as one of their employees?? or more top the point, do Dharma know about the purge?

PullMyFinger!

7

thefuselage.com is down from so many people logging on, thats how talkative this episode is I havent seen that happen to that site since the finale last year. There's a thread with some hi res pictures of Jacob I'll paste here when it comes back on.

doonothing

****ing

wow

Sad Professor

9

PullMyFinger! wrote:

thefuselage.com is down from so many people logging on, thats how talkative this episode is I havent seen that happen to that site since the finale last year. There's a thread with some hi res pictures of Jacob I'll paste here when it comes back on.

Keeping refreshing and you'll get in eventually, it's just too busy.

PullMyFinger!

7

The server is too busy at the moment. Please try again later.

Jacob, the mad fúcker, broke the internet

Sad Professor

9

I don't think there's much point analysing that shot of Jacob too much, chances are it's just a stand in till an actor is cast. Same thing as with Sylar on Heroes.

Faith

9

I just rewatched the last part again, from when they enter Jacob's hut. Seriously, that whole episode blew me away. Ben's obviously scared that Locke is going to take his position as leader. If Jacob spoke to him, and asked for help, that must mark John as special.

hungrychef

About that ageing process idea.. I don't believe the Island itself gives ppl longer life spans (we see Ben's Father age through out his flash back), what I can only guess is that there is some kind of process they must go through (whether a trek to some fountain of youth, injection, killing your dad etc.. ).
As for where the natives came from... anyone remember the 4 toed statue? Ruins of a lost city? They may have been on that Island undiscovered for hundreds maybe thousands of years... Or they came to the island before the Dharma Initiative and had already killed the "real" natives... (They do have guns after all) .. I do like the idea of them come on the Ship that housed the dynamite though, whatever it's name is..
Locke can't be dead... he took a bullet.. Naomi had a big ass branch stuck in her lung and she's up and about.. 2/3 days later!!!
As for that Jacob guy.... I couldn't even guess... although I usually try to stick to theory's that don't stretch too far (i.e ghosts/spirits) The writers seem to like basing the answers to the questions on slightly scientific notions.
Another idea that comes to mind.. What if none of the natives are real... We have already seen many people appear who are not real, notable Jacks dad, Yemee and now Ben's Dad.. What if Ben WAS really crazy and the island created these people so he would kill them all, and stop him going crazy(er)..
Too many questions and me head is wrecked!!!!

PullMyFinger!

7

Faith wrote:

If Jacob spoke to him, and asked for help, that must mark John as special.

Havent watched it again (but trust me, I will be) but that was clearly Ben's voice?

This entire segment bugged the bollix outta me and at the same time had me on the edge of me seat. Classic Lost in other words.

feylya

9

Fantastic episode. Some things though:

-Does Ben control Jacob? The "Help Me" and Ben demanding to know what was said backs it up

-Is Richard dead? We know that both Ben and Locke can see and communicate with the dead on the Island so that would explain why he hasn't aged.

-The circle of ash around Jacob's hut - could that be human ash?

Of course, we're not going to find out any of this until season 5 probably

csk

8

What a fantastic episode!

The Jacob thing was fairly freaky, great acting by Ben too. He really did come across as a psycho.

E@gle.

9

the next few eposides should be good when the others attack the lost camp and i wonder what the french woman is going to do with the dynamite. thers gonna be fireworks for the season finale anyway

Miguel_Sanchez

PullMyFinger! wrote:

Wait a second..... Kris Kristofferson is Jacob! :eek: :eek: :eek:

jArgHA

8

havent read a single post in this thread, just logged in to see the poll results - 23 votes, all votes 8, 9 or 10! holy fcek I'm looking forward to watching this later...

Anima

8

I'm kinda surprised that no one is giving out about the Jacob scene.

It was like ok lets finally go see Jacob, *mess* then ok that was Jacob.

Vintage Lost.

rip2roar

8

Ok, first of all



Is it just me or does that look like Locke with a wig? or real hair?? Look closesly at it.

Second: I was thinking that my prediction that you all dismissed had come true!

rip2roar wrote:

Podcast, well, hmm, tenner bets that jacob will be

Bens Imaginery Friend

or something along those lines. I said it first! Remember that! I'm going out on a limb, but there you go! Im probably wrong!

So close!

Also, did anyone notice where Ben shot Locke? In his left kidney....Or therefore lack of. Locke wont die, because the one thing his father conned him out of might save his life.:eek:

6ix

8

I just remembered what Ben said to Richard early on. It lends a bit more credence to the anti-ageing theories:

"You do remember birthdays don't you".

Originally, I thought it was to do with being on the island for so long, but it could apply to this ageing effect either.

Edit - I'm certain Locke wont be dead. Ben would've shot him a second time if that was to happen. Especially with the healing properties of the island.

Haven't a Clue

9

Sweet holy jesus. That was mental. Seems as though any logical answer to all the island's mysteries has now been made impossible, however, it seems all the answers to the island's mysteries now lie with Jacob. And Ben was right, he is a scary bastard!

Locke dead? I actually hope so. This would complete his character, a character who, let's face it, hasn't been the most popular this season. It would be a bit bull****ty if he landed back, good as new.

Flashbacks were lethal. Good to see the return of the whispers, though I think a wee bit more explaining has to be done about 'the natives'. As for the Richard thing, I've got meself a brand, spanking new theory (still based on me old one about the smoke, but with improvements):

These strange ones we've seen, i.e. Jack's dad, Ben's mum, Eko's brother, Walt for Shannon etc. do not exist. They are in fact controlled by this Jacob fella which is why they don't age. Since Ben appears to be the only surviving member of Dharma, he is not controlled by Jacob (like the others), but is being controlled by having to go see Jacob. That is why he's the only one who gets to see him.

Anyway, that was a mega top-notch episode and is challenging Walkabout as my personal favourite ever. 10/10.

redstarlet

9

Brilliant eppy, good all rounder. Great beach action and good flashbacks.

Makes the way Sawyer irreverently played with Roger Workman's Head all the more acceptable! :eek:

The whole scene with jacob was intense! Was it just me or did there seem to be loads happening at the same time? After Jacob (?) said help me the lamp got knocked over and there was a fire on the floor, Ben looked like he was shot? Then there was no fire and of course ben walked out safe but a bit shook looking! Does it tie in to Ben shooting Locke later and Locke obviously needing help? Will defo have to scrutinise again at my leisure to see if i recognise the voice...

Haven't a Clue

9

Here's the audio of "Help Me":

http://www.dailymotion.com/DarkUFO/video/x1xxpg_helpme/1

And here's the whole damn scene:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1xwfn_lost-320-watercooler-moment

...and I'm after seeing Richard on scrubs. Doesn't seem to have aged there either. MAYBE TURK AND CARLA ARE ON THE ISLAND! :eek: