Child abducted in Portugal

Madge

I suppose everyone has heard about 3 year old Maddy McCann who was abducted in Portugal.
Don't think they'll find her at this stage. I think the parents are completely at fault. Imagine leaving a 3 year old child alone at night! And they're doctors too.

easyontheeye

I dont think debating wether or not the parents are to blame will help

Tha Gopher

The parents have some neck criticising the police. When I heard that a couple had left a pair of twins and a girl of 3 in a house on their own I imagined the usual suspects- Adrian Kennedy caller types.

Feckin doctors? Shows theres a fine line between money and sense. Its unbelieveable that two people as wealthy as they presumably are would sooner go drinking and leave kids alone than pay a measly few quid to have them looked after (Portugal isnt exactly the most expensive country buying wise, Im sure the minders were available for under a tenner an hour)

Madge

Well it might send out the message that people should not leave their children by themselves. Anyway I don't think there is any debate. The parents were completely in the wrong.

easyontheeye

Madge wrote:

Well it might send out the message that people should not leave their children by themselves. Anyway I don't think there is any debate. The parents were completely in the wrong.

so what you hoping to achieve with the argument? the damage is done now

Madge

What argument? I just posted my thoughts on the subject.
Sorry, seems I hit a raw nerve with you.

swingking

What has the parents being doctors got to do with anything. If they were plumbers would it make any difference.

It is a fine example of Ireland's begrudgery.

It was the parents at fault but blaming the parents doesn't help anything.

Madge

swingking wrote:

What has the parents being doctors got to do with anything. If they were plumbers would it make any difference.

Well, I think doctors are seen to be more responsible and have more sense.

robinph

Madge wrote:

Imagine leaving a 3 year old child alone at night! And they're doctors too.

The kids were only as alone as any others might be every night whilst they are sleeping upstairs and the parents are downstairs watching the telly, the only difference being that the door was locked to keep the kids inside whilst the parents were downstairs.

seamus

There may be something cultural to it.

Apparently back in the sixties, in the big holiday camps it was quite normal to leave your kids alone in the chalet. The people would ask the front desk to keep an eye out, and announcements would often be made on the tannoy along the lines of, "Crying can be heard from Chalet 16", etc.

Of course they're completely at fault. But nobody deserves this to happen. I'm sure they're fully regretting it now, so there's no need to try and stick the knife in, so to speak.

There's a fair chance that whoever did this spent some time watching the family and tracking their movements, so it's reasonable to assume that this may have happened even if they hadn't gone to dinner. It's a three year old child. All someone would need is five seconds and an escape route to take her undetected.

It's not exactly like they just wandered off and got pissed and left them alone all night. They were having dinner 100 metres away and took turns to go check on them every 30 minutes. How many parents have put their kids to sleep, then gone downstairs and watched telly for two hours? It doesn't exonerate them - what if there had been a fire - but they certainly weren't the child abandoning drunkards that some people would make them out to be. They obviously just thought that a short nice dinner alone together would be good, and that the kids would be OK.

scojones

Madge wrote:

Well, I think doctors are seen to be more responsible and have more sense.

You'd be surprised. Click Me

Tha Gopher

swingking wrote:

What has the parents being doctors got to do with anything. If they were plumbers would it make any difference.

It is a fine example of Ireland's begrudgery.

It was the parents at fault but blaming the parents doesn't help anything.

Its because you expect doctors to have more intelligence and sense than the rest of the population I would have thought. As said, if they appeared on tv in burberry caps, sovereigns and rangers jerseys drinking Carling yid think "feckin typical". You expect doctors to have more sense than these types.

That and being too tight fisted to pay a minder.

Madge

seamus wrote:

Apparently back in the sixties, in the big holiday camps it was quite normal to leave your kids alone in the chalet. The people would ask the front desk to keep an eye out, and announcements would often be made on the tannoy along the lines of, "Crying can be heard from Chalet 16", etc.

Yeah, but it's not like that anymore sadly.

seamus wrote:

Of course they're completely at fault. But nobody deserves this to happen. I'm sure they're fully regretting it now, so there's no need to try and stick the knife in, so to speak.

Of course not. But it should be pointed out it's their fault. This terrible situation might set an example to other parents / guardians who have children.

seamus wrote:

It's not exactly like they just wandered off

They did.

seamus wrote:

and got pissed

How do you know they weren't drunk or tipsy even?

seamus wrote:

They were having dinner 100 metres away and took turns to go check on them every 30 minutes.

Not good enough imo. The kids were still left alone.

seamus wrote:

How many parents have put their kids to sleep, then gone downstairs and watched telly for two hours?

That's completely different. The parents are actually present.

seamus wrote:

but they certainly weren't the child abandoning drunkards that some people would make them out to be. They obviously just thought that a short nice dinner alone together would be good, and that the kids would be OK.

Their foolish actions have led to this tragedy, whatever way you look at it.

Glowing

In fairness, they're probably feeling pretty regretful of their actions at the moment, and are paying for their mistake in the worst possible way.

The chances of something like this happening is so tiny - I just feel so so sorry for them.

WindSock

Tha Gopher wrote:

Its because you expect doctors to have more intelligence and sense than the rest of the population I would have thought. As said, if they appeared on tv in burberry caps, sovereigns and rangers jerseys drinking Carling yid think "feckin typical". You expect doctors to have more sense than these types.

That and being too tight fisted to pay a minder.

If they were Burberry Sovereign types, then I would Imagine the child has gone to a better place.

But come on now, they were on holidays, not easy to find a childminder, albeit, one you can trust, and the were only 150 feet away from her. Poor wee bairn is probably in Morrocco by now. Possibly in a Harem. I shudder to think what may become of her, but I think she will be found.

Ghost Train

Bah, who ever abducted the kids is to blame, the parents knew the kids were sleeping like they do every day, they were close and were checking on them every so often. Not an ideal situation leaving the kids alone, but there was no way anybody could predict that somebody would abduct the kid

loyatemu

from the guardian:

When did Madeleine vanish?

Between 9.30pm and 10pm on Thursday. Her parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, were dining at a tapas bar in a Mark Warner resort around 100 metres from the apartment where Madeleine and her twin siblings were sleeping. The McCanns checked on the children at around half-hourly intervals. Mr McCann checked at 9.30pm, but when the couple returned at about 10pm, Madeleine had gone. A pool, hedge, wall and alleyway are between the bar and the apartment.

100m=300ft

I wouldn't have thought it was a good idea to leave young kids alone anywhere where you couldn't hear them, but mainly because they could get into mischief and hurt themselves. The chances of the being kidnapped are vanishingly small, you've probably more chance of winning the lottery.

angeldelight

While I would never do it with my own children, I can see how they thought they'd be ok. The door to the room was locked, they were checking every half hour, and they could actually see the door of the room from where they were. How many people would think "hmm I suppose someone might tear the shutters off the window and abduct one of my children". They probably thought the only bad thing that would happen would be that one of the kids woke up and was crying.

I'm not excusing them, I would never do it but I can see it from their point of view.

Plissken1

Madge wrote:

Well, I think doctors are seen to be more responsible and have more sense.

HeHe Doctors are people who just did very well in their Leaving Cert (while the rest of us were playing Football), it doesnt mean they are good doctors, just as it doesnt mean they have more sense.

lady_j

angeldelight wrote:

While I would never do it with my own children, I can see how they thought they'd be ok. The door to the room was locked, they were checking every half hour, and they could actually see the door of the room from where they were. How many people would think "hmm I suppose someone might tear the shutters off the window and abduct one of my children". They probably thought the only bad thing that would happen would be that one of the kids woke up and was crying.

I'm not excusing them, I would never do it but I can see it from their point of view.

I agree that they prob didnt think much could happen but then twins at toddler age and a three yr old on their own seems a bit ridiculous. Toddlers get up to so much mischief - my two year old nephew can climb out of cots, open doors etc. There was a lot of harm that could have been done without an abuductor involved. it was irresponsible but nobody deserves what they must be going through

seamus

Madge wrote:

Of course not. But it should be pointed out it's their fault. This terrible situation might set an example to other parents / guardians who have children.

I don't see the need. It's a bit like having a headline one day saying, "Man steps in front of train and dies", and then the next day saying, "Don't step in front of trains - look what happened to the last idiot".

It's even more obvious than common sense that you don't leave your children unattended. Telling people not to do it is pointless, as those who would do it won't heed the warning. Much like drink-driving.

How do you know they weren't drunk or tipsy even?

That's not my point. People are making out as if they went on the lash and got hammered, and bedamned with the consquences. So what if they were tipsy? They may have had wine with their dinner. That doesn't make them any more negligent.

That's completely different. The parents are actually present.

I disagree that it's completely different. A parent being semi-present doesn't mean that someone who wants to take the child would be prevented from doing so.

Their foolish actions have led to this tragedy, whatever way you look at it.

And *they* lost *their* child. I hardly think that they need to be made an example of.

Sad Professor

Terrible story, parents should have known better but that doesn't matter now. Hopefully the girl will still be found. It's not looking good though...

eirebhoy

I was minding my 4 year old niece a few months ago and she was asleep in bed. I went down to the off license for a few more drinks, on my bike, and was out of the house for 5 minutes max. I was nervous wreck in case she woke up and realised she was in the house on her own. Imagine a kid waking up and being locked in a house alone for half an hour. The thought of them being kidnapped wouldn't even enter your head but the fact that they could wake up with no clue where their parents had gone could leave them traumatised.

WindSock

I dont think they are bad parents. In the same way, I dont think Jamie Bulgers Mother was bad when she turned her back for a split second for her child to be taken from the supermarket. It only takes a moment, I am not a Parent, but I would imagine it would be impossible to have your children tethered to you all day and night.

PinkPrincess26

Its a sad Tragedy but a very prevenatable one.....

I can only imagine how the poor parensts feel but for god sake 2 year old twins and a 3 year old little girl left in the apartments. I would never dream of leaving my baby alone anywere while asleep or awake, you know what i mean..

But blaming the parents isnt going help find the lttle girl.

Please God the poor liitle girl is found alive.... although the longer shes gone the odds on her coming back are slipping away

layke

Unfortunately I really do doubt they will find that little girl alive after so long.

Kurumba

Why did the person who took Madeline choose her though over one of the two twins i wonder.
I'd say he/she had been keeping an eye on the family and probably knew that the parents dined out at night and left the kids alone, maybe it was a nightly thing the parents did. Although it is very close to the restaurant so the person must have known the parents had just been to check. It sounds a bit random otherwise.
They are partly at fault for leaving them alone in the first place but like other posters said, I can see why they thought the kids would be safe.

Dudess

I shudder to think what could be happening to her. I remember there was a four-part drama on child trafficking last year. Some of it was unwatchable. And, apparently, fair-skinned children - particularly blonde ones - are the most highly prized among those bastards. Terrifying. God love the parents - I really don't think there's any point in recriminations. Christ knows they're paying for their mistake.
There was a little English lad, Ben Needham, who vanished in 1991 while on the Greek island of Kos. He would have celebrated his 17th birthday last October.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Needham

Madge

seamus wrote:

It's even more obvious than common sense that you don't leave your children unattended. Telling people not to do it is pointless, as those who would do it won't heed the warning. Much like drink-driving.

If people see the consequences it might deter them. That was all I meant.

seamus wrote:

That's not my point. People are making out as if they went on the lash and got hammered, and bedamned with the consquences. So what if they were tipsy? They may have had wine with their dinner. That doesn't make them any more negligent.

Nobody said or is making out as "if they went on the lash". But how do you know they weren't? I was just trying to point out that nobody knows the full story. BTW, consuming alcohol does have an effect you know!

seamus wrote:

I disagree that it's completely different. A parent being semi-present doesn't mean that someone who wants to take the child would be prevented from doing so.

I think that's a naive viewpoint. If the parents are even "semi-present" as you say, then it's less likely a child would be abducted.

seamus wrote:

And *they* lost *their* child. I hardly think that they need to be made an example of.

Of course, but people should be allowed to give their viewpoints and opinion on this tragedy.

eirebhoy

jessie1 wrote:

Why did the person who took Madeline choose her though over one of the two twins i wonder.

I think it's pretty obvious. What's the first thing that comes to your head when you hear a man has kidnapped a kid?

Reports are that he might be British so was probably in the same restaurant as the parents and watching them go in and out.

vorbis

em the people at fault are the ones that abducted the kid! People like Madge who want to assign blame for no other reason than to feel smug have a disgusting attitude imo.

Madge

Dudess wrote:

I shudder to think what could be happening to her. I remember there was a four-part drama on child trafficking last year. Some of it was unwatchable. And, apparently, fair-skinned children - particularly blonde ones - are the most highly prized among those bastards. Terrifying.

Was that the program on Sky 1 last year? Excellent drama but very hard to watch. It makes me sick to think there are monsters like that around

Madge

vorbis wrote:

em the people at fault are the ones that abducted the kid!

The people at fault are the ones who gave the sicko the opportunity to abduct the child. In today's day and age, leaving toddlers (Yes toddlers) of only 2 and 3 years of age alone for half an hour in a strange place in a strange country is asking for trouble. If you can't see that, well that's your own problem.

vorbis wrote:

People like Madge who want to assign blame for no other reason than to feel smug have a disgusting attitude imo.

:rolleyes: Whats feeling smug got to do with it? The majority of people here agree that the parents are somewhat to blame.

Dudess

Madge wrote:

Was that the program on Sky 1 last year? Excellent drama but very hard to watch. It makes me sick to think there are monsters like that around

That's the one. It was really, really horrifying stuff but it actually gave me insight that I wouldn't have had previously.

mikemac

I've only scanned through the thread so apologies if this has been answered.

Was the room on the groundfloor?

When I worked in a hotel we had a policy that single women and also families with small children were not placed on ground floor for security purposes if possible.

This was a hotel in Tipperary and appearantly was policy for all hotels in the chain.
Maybe not ever hotel has such a policy

Guy:Incognito

seamus wrote:

- but they certainly weren't the child abandoning drunkards that some people would make them out to be. .

If they were living on a councel estate thats exactly what the papers and the general public would be calling them.

boreds wrote:

If they were Burberry Sovereign types, then I would Imagine the child has gone to a better place.

But come on now, they were on holidays, not easy to find a childminder, albeit, one you can trust, and the were only 150 feet away from her. Poor wee bairn is probably in Morrocco by now. Possibly in a Harem. I shudder to think what may become of her, but I think she will be found.

The hotel they were in provides a childminding service.

boreds wrote:

I dont think they are bad parents. In the same way, I dont think Jamie Bulgers Mother was bad when she turned her back for a split second for her child to be taken from the supermarket. It only takes a moment, I am not a Parent, but I would imagine it would be impossible to have your children tethered to you all day and night.

Anyone can turn their back or have a chold run off in a supermarket, this is completely different. People know the way the world is now, couple that with the way that kids naturally are inquisitive and run off etc. What you dont want to add to that mix is leaving them alone for 30 mins or more to bring the odds of something happening down dramatically.

I live in a cul de sac thats roughly 80 metres long. My mate lives in the 3rd last house and im in the house at the top of the road. I wouldnt leave my 2 year old alone aslep in my house while I was at a party in my mates house.

seastar

I can't understand why people feel the need to be so sanctimonious and judge people who are going through more horror that we can even imagine. What on earth gives you the right to judge them?!? It makes me sick to think that people are on here, saying this when someone has had their child taken from them. Do you not have a heart?

WindSock

Madge wrote:

The people at fault are the ones who gave the sicko the opportunity to abduct the child. In today's day and age, leaving toddlers (Yes toddlers) of only 2 and 3 years of age alone for half an hour in a strange place in a strange country is asking for trouble. If you can't see that, well that's your own problem.

Its not a 'todays day and age' thing though. There have always been kidnappings, child snatchings and paedophiles. The only way it is different today is with child porn on the internet.
It annoys me to think that SUDDENLY there are Paedophiles everywhere. How is is it any less safe to leave a toddler out of sight for a short while now, than it was 50 or 100 years ago?
I think its a case of 'well back in my day, the streets were saferism.
As someone said before, the chances of it happening are very slim, considering the amount of people with children.
I don't blame the parents, people with bad intentions looking for sex/money/power can be oppertunists at any time. If not taken from her bed, she could have just as easily been taken from the pool/supermarket.

Guy:Incognito

boreds wrote:

It annoys me to think that SUDDENLY there are Paedophiles everywhere. How is is it any less safe to leave a toddler out of sight for a short while now, than it was 50 or 100 years ago? .

Nobody said that, but the plain and simple fact is that year s ago, child abuse, along with many other crimes were ignored and/or swept under then carpet. A huge amount of people wouldnt have been aware of the abuse kids were suffering at the hands of christian brothers etc. Now people are and can be more vigilant.

boreds wrote:

As someone said before, the chances of it happening are very slim, considering the amount of people with children. .

Not if, as has apparently been suggested from the police I think, these people were being watched. Chances are whoever is responsible, watch a few families, and when they see one being lax they will hone in on them and exploit the oppertunity when it presents itself. These people presented whoever did this with a pretty big window (as far as kids going missing 30 mins is a huge window, when they run off in a shop its usually within seconds that the parent is looking for them) to grab the child by being neglegent. (sp?)

stovelid

Madge wrote:

I suppose everyone has heard about 3 year old Maddy McCann who was abducted in Portugal.
Don't think they'll find her at this stage. I think the parents are completely at fault. Imagine leaving a 3 year old child alone at night! And they're doctors too.

Well, I should think that your child quite possibly being gone for good is enough punishment.

They were negligent but I would rather not gloat or moralize and just hope the kid turns up alright TBH

Stekelly wrote:

If they were living on a councel estate thats exactly what the papers and the general public would be calling them.

.

Sadly, have to agree here.

WindSock

Stekelly wrote:

Not if, as has apparently been suggested from the police I think, these people were being watched. Chances are whoever is responsible, watch a few families, and when they see one being lax they will hone in on them and exploit the oppertunity when it presents itself. These people presented whoever did this with a pretty big window (as far as kids going missing 30 mins is a huge window, when they run off in a shop its usually within seconds that the parent is looking for them) to grab the child by being neglegent. (sp?)

Its all too easy to let your guard down, no one knows when these scumbags strike, or if indeed, if they will. To be constantly on the edge and wary and paranoid may also just ruin your childs childhood and yourself.

empirix

Dudess wrote:

I shudder to think what could be happening to her. I remember there was a four-part drama on child trafficking last year. Some of it was unwatchable. And, apparently, fair-skinned children - particularly blonde ones - are the most highly prized among those bastards. Terrifying. God love the parents - I really don't think there's any point in recriminations. Christ knows they're paying for their mistake.
There was a little English lad, Ben Needham, who vanished in 1991 while on the Greek island of Kos. He would have celebrated his 17th birthday last October.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Needham

These people are sick b******s and deserve to be severely tortured for hours and then killed on the spot. It bears not thinking about what might be happening to that little girl(and many other infants) as i type, c***s

DarkJager

People who snatch kids like this, should catch a bullet in the head the second they are found...Jail is too easy for these absolute bastards..

Guy:Incognito

boreds wrote:

Its all too easy to let your guard down, no one knows when these scumbags strike, or if indeed, if they will. To be constantly on the edge and wary and paranoid may also just ruin your childs childhood and yourself.

Go out to the pub/restaurant and leavign your kids at home is more than just "letting your guard down". letting your guard down would be turnign your back and your child running off.

WindSock

DarkJager wrote:

People who snatch kids like this, should catch a bullet in the head the second they are found...Jail is too easy for these absolute bastards..

Agreed. Once they are out, they are likely to do it again.

robinph

The only person at fault in this case is whoever it is that took the kid, not the parents.

scojones

It's an awful thought. She might have been kidnapped for the child porn industry. Ugh. Makes my stomach sick.

Guy:Incognito

robinph wrote:

The only person at fault in this case is whoever it is that took the kid, not the parents.

No ones denying that it's obviously the person who comits the crimes fault but the thing is that he/she/they most likely chose that particular child as a direct result of the parents negligence.

If you came across a child left alone locked in a car in a supermarket car park, you will most likely comment about irresponsible parents and will completely blame whoever is responsible for th echild. If that same shild is snatched from the car, is the parent /guardian suddenly blameless?

seastar

No, what it means is that the consequences are punishment enough without having the condemnation of all the bystanders lumped on your already broken-hearted body!

Guy:Incognito

seastar wrote:

No, what it means is that the consequences are punishment enough without having the condemnation of all the bystanders lumped on your already broken-hearted body!

All thats happening is that people arent doing the usual of people in a bad situation beign absolved of all blame.

Ickle Magoo

It's an awful situation. I'm sure the McCann's have run through what they could have, or should have done differently a million times. The bottom line is; regardless of what they did or didn't do they can't change things now & they certainly don't deserve what has happened, so trying to apportion blame to the parents is a completely pointless exercise.

I don't agree with leaving kids unattended or home alone but I think even if we all sat trying to guard our kids 24/7, these people would find a way to snatch children. The parents in this case could well have made it harder for whomever stole their daughter - but it may well have happened anyway.

Did anyone hear Gerry Ryan on Tues am? Man was describing an incident in Lanzorote 2 years ago when men broke into the apartment while they were asleep and dressed in the fathers clothes, took his passport (as the children were on it) and a suitcase with the little girls clothes and were lifting a little girl out of her bed when he discovered them in the bedroom. Terrifying. :eek::(