was I right?

LegacyUser

I've always had a problem with the way my Dad treats my Mum (their both in their 70's).

He's always putting her down, tells her to shut up and stop interrupting him when he's talking (which is constantly), she never gets a word in edgeways and is not allowed to express and opinion... if she does he calls her stupid etc. I'm always telling him not to speak to her like that and we've had lots of rows in the past about it.

So a few days ago I pop over to their house and am chatting to my Mum and he butts in talking crap as usual. So then for no reason he starts shouting at her and calls her an *embarrassment*' and I lose it totally.... I told him never to speak to her like that and f*cked him out of it when he then started shouting at me too. I didn't back down, he had to leave.... not before telling me never to come back into 'his' house mind you... of course I set him straight on that one too.

Now my Mum is a great person, very intelligent and I love her to bits.... but she doesn't stick up for herself.... she says after years of trying she knows it doesn't work he just gets worse if she does, so she says nothing. I'm usually very calm but there's no way I will ever stand there and let him away with it and humiliate my Mum. I'm the youngest daughter and none of the others will stick up for her, they just ignore it and my sister actually sides with him.

So anyway he's done his usual... had to lie down ahhh, wouldn't eat ahhh, or speak to her (blessing in disguise). I've been there twice since it happened and he's ignoring me totally, leaves the room when I come in. I know that if he says a word to me, I'll let him have it again.

But part of me feels a bit bad....did I do the right thing??

little miss

You were completely human in your response. Anyone would do the same as you after years of biting their tongue. However, for the sake of your mum I think you should try and make your peace with your father so you're at least on speaking terms. Otherwise its your mum who will suffer the most. Be the bigger person in this - maybe try and reason with him and get him to see he needs to treat her a bit better without shouting? Would that be possible?

LegacyUser

Goin unreg as it strikes too close to ppls I know.
To be honest, I think you were right, I have been in the situation of looking in at it from the outside in and its a horrible horrible situation for any son or daughter to experience especially when your other siblings say nothing or do nothing.

I cant offer you advice on what to do proactivly but I would always say that if that exact situaton arises again, stick up for your mum... its possible that she has become so used to it and she just doesnt have the self believe of confidence to stand up for herself.

If possible if you feel like your siblings are aproachable talk to them about it, tell them exactly what you say and heard, cause if its not done at some stage later on it will probably be acceptable and just brushed off as "sure thats dad"

Hope that helps somewhat

Cancer-chick

When its your mum its so hard to keep the peace and hold your tongue Although ill hazard a guess that your mum has been saying this for years
If they are in their 70's she has been conditioned to tiptoe around him and he is used to total dominance in the home. As a kid all you can do is watch and be damaged by it and feel so sad for and protective of your mum but as an adult its impossible to say nothing when you see your mum be bullied and put down by your dad who is probably jealous of the love you have for her..

You did what you had to do but at their stage of life she will value and depend on him .. however bad he is, he is her husband.. it sucks

impr0v

You can't really be taking on her fights for her. The dynamic they have worked out between them is for all intensive purposes fixed at this point and you're not going to change it. As has happened you will cause strife by highlighting it and bringing it into the open, plus it's going to take a toll on you, probably a greater one than it takes on him.

It seems from what your mother has said that she doesn't feel as strong about this as you feel she should, or you imagine would feel in her situation. She's learned to tolerate it and see it for what it is.

People are strange creatures in what they'll tolerate, in my opinion you're best to leave them to it. If it's a big enough issue for her, it's within her power to do something about it.

LegacyUser

I'm going unreg for this too. My parents have a similiar relationship but they are in their 50's. Now he wouldn't call her stupid or say she was an embarrrasment but he laughs at her, makes snide comments and doesn't respect her like he should. Blames her for everything that goes wrong.

I was 7 when I cottoned on that this was not acceptable to be treating my mother like this and from then on we never saw eye to eye. I would stick up for her and step in if I felt he was out of line. I got dogs abuse for it and he has called me everything under the sun, even threatening me physically which I dealt with it by telling him he would find himself so quickly in the local nick if he touched me.

Same as your dad, he would then act like the victim, not get up, not eat dinner and upset the whole house in doing so and then I would get abuse for 'causing' the strife from brothers and sisters, their reactions still surprise me, don't rock the boat, you know what he's like etc. I don't give a flying f**k that he is like that, point is its unacceptable.

Strangely the penny dropped with my mother last summer and she let him have after one abusive episode. He got some shock and she didn't relent for weeks and since then I think she has being empowered by finally standing up to him.

Sure sometimes I felt bad but overall he needed to be told he cannot treat her like that.

End of day though only your mother can help herself. You won't/can't always be there for her. You need to try get her to help herself.

Marksie

upset wrote:

.

But part of me feels a bit bad....did I do the right thing??

Its bad enough when that behaviour occurs in relationships you see but are not involved withy. The mental control and childishness, the bullying and fear of the other persons intelligence such that it has to be ground down.

It is 10X worse when its your family
Its 100X worse when its your partner.

Did you do right... yes, but probably many years too late to be honest and as one poster said, your mum would have to put up with the consequences.

They are in their 70s now and he has been allowed to get away with that behaviour for probably all his life, not being challenged or forced to face it.

It is a pity your much didn't stick to her guns it may have been different.

Still, you have done what you have done. It is in the end your decision whether you retract anything or not. His behaviour is what has served him all his life he will continue to do so until he goes blue in the face and it is now about a contest of wills with your mum being the target he has easy access too.

It is unfortunate that all too frequently people like that end up alone having driven others away or under

digitally-yours

YOU did ABSOLUTELY right

If i was in your situation i would have done the same.

Moss

I had to post for this one. OP, I completely understand your predicament. My father behaved with total disrespect to my mother, me and my brothers and sisters. He literally could not communicate at all without being ignorant and aggressive. Its almost impossible to live with. Unfortunately people like that are usually unwilling to change, they just go on hurting other people. Your father is in his 70s, he is definitely not going to change now.

Try not to get too emotionally involved, like shouting at your father (believe me I know how hard this is!), because it will make things harder for your mother. Its probably best that you disengage as much as you can without creating an issue by breaking all contact.

I used to do my best to stick up for my mother too, but now I've realised she's not a totally innocent victim either. She never demanded that my father change his ways. She let him behave like that to her and the kids. I know there are so many reasons why someone would do this. What I am driving at is that your mother is not prepared (and probably never has been prepared) to either leave your father or do what it takes to make him change, so her situation is partly of her own choosing. Its difficult to understand but some people are "content to be miserable" and trying to make them change only drags you down with them.

Your parents have made their choices. Get out and live your life and make sure you learn from their mistakes.

Cancer-chick

Moss has it there OP

My dad is 74 now.. Mum died in 03.. I adored her and focused all my anger on him (we didnt speak for my entire teenage years) and i fed off it .. Eventually i realise hatred is futile.. After my mum died with hindsight counselling and most important my own life experiences i realised we all have choices.. My mum made hers. I chose to leave an abusive ex she chose to stay.

I know times were different etc back then but personally my parents had me late in life so she could have left.. At the end of the day you can only tell her your thoughts and that you love her and try to avoid confronting him.. My dad is the same bully he always was but as MarkS said.. these people either drive people away or under.. My dad called my new house 4 times a day and then gave out to me for not being there !! thats just an example .. The boundaries are set there now and while i feel sorry for him he made his own bed and if he is lonely now .. well thats his own problem.. Sometimes you have to cut the cord

There are groups out there for adult children of alcoholics.. Dont know if drink was/is factor with your dad but i think even if not you would find the same problem shared by most at these groups if you would consider going

I hope you have a happy life

LegacyUser

'Thanks for all you replies and support....

I've found out over the years that there is no talking or reasoning with him. It's his way/opinion or none fullstop.

I've spoken to my brothers & sister about it. My brothers really don't care,not interested, my sister takes my dads side no matter what.... so no talking to them either.

There's no alcohol involved, just a nasty old man... street angel, home devil.

She made her bed now lie in it?.... she more or less single handedly brought up 5 kids while he sat on his arse, read newspapers, watched telly and sniped at her. She worked too when we were at school. She was too busy looking after us to keep him in his place. I wish she would leave him, but shes 71 thats not going to happen. She loves her home and her garden.

She's not upset that he and I are not speaking, she's actually enjoying the peace and quiet as he's not saying much to her either.

I've tried to love and like him cause he's my dad... but I guess I've just figured that I'll never do either.'

Marksie

Upset wrote:

I've tried to love and like him cause he's my dad... but I guess I've just figured that I'll never do either.'

Then just give all the support to your mum. Also in accepting the above you won't drive yourself half demented

tampopo

Moss and marksuttonie both made good replies.
My da was like that, well, more oldfashioned than condescending or rude, but lazy and readin' de paper and stuff. wouldn't have ever known what a nappy was,though he often said that me ma thought the car filled itself with petrol. Anyway, hmmm, my advice, try and be civil to him even if it makes your skin crawl and your stomach turn. For your mother's sake.Even if you were to apologise (and not mean it).

good luck.

what's that phrase, god give me the strength to change the things I can,
the courage to bear the things I can't ..... and the patience to tell the difference....

I dunno,...try and rise above it,.....

Moss

Upset wrote:

She made her bed now lie in it?.... she more or less single handedly brought up 5 kids while he sat on his arse, read newspapers, watched telly and sniped at her. She worked too when we were at school. She was too busy looking after us to keep him in his place. I wish she would leave him, but shes 71 thats not going to happen. She loves her home and her garden.

Its strange how similar this situation is to my own. My mother also raised five kids. My father never had a full time job. Exactly as you said, sat on his arse, read newspapers and criticised my mother. After working all day my mother would come home and make the dinner. My father would always give out about it. Why wasn't ready on time, why weren't the spuds cooked properly, whats wrong with you, can't do anything right etc. Totally insane behaviour eveyday.

I go back to the point I made earlier. My mother is not a totally innocent victim. She was never prepared to a) leave my father or b) demand that he change. It takes two people to make an unhappy marriage. She was content to live with him, hard as that may be to believe. She forced her five children to be brought up in a house where this man could behave like an animal. Although she may play the persecuted angel she shares responsibility for what happened.

Your parents are not going to change. I can gaurantee you that. You should let go, disengage. You've probably been caught up in their issues growing up, don't waste your time now.

Cancer-chick wrote:

There are groups out there for adult children of alcoholics. Dont know if drink was/is factor with your dad but i think even if not you would find the same problem shared by most at these groups if you would consider going

Where are these groups in Dublin? I've never heard of them. Does anyone know where they are?

BeardyGit

impr0v wrote:

You can't really be taking on her fights for her. The dynamic they have worked out between them is for all intensive purposes fixed at this point and you're not going to change it. As has happened you will cause strife by highlighting it and bringing it into the open, plus it's going to take a toll on you, probably a greater one than it takes on him.

It seems from what your mother has said that she doesn't feel as strong about this as you feel she should, or you imagine would feel in her situation. She's learned to tolerate it and see it for what it is.

People are strange creatures in what they'll tolerate, in my opinion you're best to leave them to it. If it's a big enough issue for her, it's within her power to do something about it.

Spot on. Good post.

Nevyn

Moss wrote:

Where are these groups in Dublin? I've never heard of them. Does anyone know where they are?

Yes there are
http://www.mentalhealthireland.ie/Mental_Health_Services_Local.asp?NationalGroupID=16

The are a variation on alanon groups and if you get in touch with them they will tel you were your nearest one is.

Cancer-chick

Im not in Dublin Moss but Al Anon should be able to point u in the right direction.. they have groups for the spouses of alcoholics but they pointed me in the direction of a local group which i found very helpful so maybe try that avenue

Moss

Cheers, will check that out

Kell

Upset wrote:

I've found out over the years that there is no talking or reasoning with him. It's his way/opinion or none fullstop.

Yes, but you have to be CLEVER with these people. If you disagree with his point of view or you feel it is completely stupid, you need to explain HOW it is stupid and moronic. They eventually get the point.

Upset wrote:

I've spoken to my brothers & sister about it. My brothers really don't care,not interested, my sister takes my dads side no matter what.... so no talking to them either.

Seen that before. If the sibling doesnt see the problem/event first hand, they dont want to know.

Upset wrote:

She made her bed now lie in it?....

Sadly, but yes. I would have unequivocably given support to my mum over the years when she complained about dad. Then I grew up, decided what was acceptable and unacceptable in my world, and I realised that I dont like how she does things as much as dad has had it for the last 40yrs. Slowly, I began to see his point of view and also came to the conclusion of "sorry mum. Stop complaining and do something". Mum made the decision to accept second best. She cant blame dad for that.

Upset wrote:

I've tried to love and like him cause he's my dad... but I guess I've just figured that I'll never do either.'

You dont have to love him. The best you can hope for is accepting that he does not behave the way you want him to, but that he is entitled as a human being to behave as he wishes.

K-

kenzie

Kell wrote:

he is entitled as a human being to behave as he wishes

Not when he has a wife and kids- those relationships should involve respect!

OP I think you have received some very good advise from the previous posters. First of all I agree that you should not feel bad about defending your Mum as I have done so on more occasions than I care to remember, I know sometimes it is unbearable to sit back and watch but a lot of the time it causes more upset that what it solves.

Men who behave like my father, your father and thousands of others it seems, probably do have their reasons. I know my father had an unhappy upbringing himself and so he probably never learned to express his emotions properly and also in an era where women were not seen as equals to their husbands. However I think too many pepoles's actions are blamed on 'a difficult upbringing' so I never accepted that as a valid excuse from him.

OP i hope that you have close friends who you can talk to about this as I know it is so difficult to cope in these situations. I spent my childhood and most of my teenage years feeling sorry for myself, crying myself to sleep, asking why I was so unlucky to be born into a family like mine- feeling like that only made me more unhappy. At the time it felt like everyone else had a perfect family but as another poster said these men act like angels in the street and devils in the home. When I moved out of home I finally accepted that yeah my childhood wasn't the best, living in a home where the smallest of things would make my dad angry has made me an anxious person and a worrier but now I try to look at any positives that came from the situation. I believe it has made me into a stronger person, I know I will never let a man treat me or any children I may have the way my father treated us, being so unhappy for so long I appriciate the goods things (and people) in life a lot more and has made me more compasionate, understanding person. I'm just so glad that I had friends to encourage me to move on with my life, build a happier one for myself and distance myself from the situation because at the end of the day I could only make him realise that i wouldn't stand for any more of his sh1t, I wish my mum could do the same but although it's heartbreaking to watch I've realised that she's a grown woman and it's now up to her to decide what she'll put up with.

spurious

Kell wrote:

Mum made the decision to accept second best. She cant blame dad for that.

It's not about deciding to accept second best.
It's about a systematic sustained campaign of emotional abuse, telling her she is worthless, putting down anything she does, constant criticism, all of which result in a devastation of self-esteem for the abused person, so much so that in some cases they believe 'well maybe I did have the dinner a bit cold, maybe I should not ask him things when he's stressed, maybe I am as useless as he keeps saying'.

I have been on the end of emotional abuse and though I finally rang the guards to remove my abuser from my home, I spent a long time excusing my abuser's behaviour.

OP, you did the right thing as regards your father and his reaction to you shows he knows you see him for what he is, which is, among I'm sure many good things, an abusive bully.

Kell

spurious wrote:

It's not about deciding to accept second best.
It's about a systematic sustained campaign of emotional abuse, telling her she is worthless, putting down anything she does, constant criticism, all of which result in a devastation of self-esteem for the abused person, so much so that in some cases they believe 'well maybe I did have the dinner a bit cold, maybe I should not ask him things when he's stressed, maybe I am as useless as he keeps saying'.

So you know my mum and dad? Thats interesting as I dont know you. Hmmn.

Irrelevent of what you say about systematic sustained abuse, the recipient still has the option of leaving.

K-

spurious

Kell wrote:

So you know my mum and dad? Thats interesting as I dont know you. Hmmn.

Irrelevent of what you say about systematic sustained abuse, the recipient still has the option of leaving.

K-

I don't know where you think I suggested I know your parents. I described the effects of sustained emotional abuse and why it would result in someone not leaving their abuser. I was responding to someone who suggested it was a choice.

Of course the abused person has the option of leaving but sustained abuse makes them less likely to do so.

Kell

spurious wrote:

I was responding to someone who suggested it was a choice.

Of course the abused person has the option of leaving but sustained abuse makes them less likely to do so.

Still a choice.

K-