Free Will: Real or Myth?

Scigaithris

Does free will exist? Is it real, a myth, or a social construction of reality?

Defining the concept of free will is problematic. In reviewing the literature, there appear to be multiple definitions, not all of them consistent with each other. Perhaps attempting to arrive by a consensus for a definition of free will, if possible, is the place to start?

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, free will or liberum arbitrium (moral liberty) has been defined as the "capacity of self-determination." They further define "By self is here understood not a single present mental state (James), nor a series of mental states (Hume and Mill), but an abiding rational being which is the subject and cause of these states."

In contrast to this position, B.F. Skinner in Beyond Freedom and Dignity views free will as myth, with humans being products of their environment and behavioural conditioning, while Peter Burger in the Sociological Imagination, would view free will as a social construction of reality.

Can we define free will and then proceed with a discussion as to whether it is real, a myth, a social construction of reality, or perhaps something else (from other perspectives)?




Footnote: This is not a new topic. It has been debated for thousands of years (I don't know about you, but I struggle with it).

BrianCalgary

Scigaithris wrote:

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, free will or liberum arbitrium (moral liberty) has been defined as the "capacity of self-determination." They further define "By self is here understood not a single present mental state (James), nor a series of mental states (Hume and Mill), but an abiding rational being which is the subject and cause of these states.").

I agree here, we as humans do have self determination. However, if we choose to put our lives into the hands of God, do we lose choice? I think not because on a task by task basis we can choose to accept or not.

Also , certain companies you work for can take over your life and thereby take away your choice.

Scigaithris wrote:

In contrast to this position, B.F. Skinner in Beyond Freedom and Dignity views free will as myth, with humans being products of their environment and behavioural conditioning, while Peter Burger in the Sociological Imagination, would view free will as a social construction of reality.).

Agree to a certain extent. Our environment that we grow up in can and will determine our path in life, but at some point one has to take responsibility and coose whether or not to continue.

Fanny Cradock

It's an interesting point.

In general philosophical terms I guess it could be argued by some that we are influenced to such a large extent by external and internal factors (respectively speaking: environment/ upbringing and genetic predispositions) that we could be called organic computers, programmed to act in certain ways. Are all our choices and decisions predicated on this programming? If this programming is all encompassing, then I think that the term 'free will' is just a myth, and it should be lumped in with other myths like 'Atlantis' or 'Hercules' etc. Undeniably, we are influenced and moulded by certain factors affecting our lives - e.g. you may be more likely to have a criminal record if you grow up in certain areas - but choice is still open to people.

In specific religious terms I would be of the strong opinion that we have free will to choose. It may not be the most salient of points, but I think it quite telling that there are people who have no belief in God and there are those that do. This would tell me that there is freedom of will to believe in and follow God... or not!

To an extent it could be argued that turning your life over to Jesus would result in a reduction of free will. People are often called to do things they don't wish to do, and in similar manner, they may be required to stop things they would rather keep doing. It may be a stretch to call it loss of free will because you could make the same point about any relationship. Maybe it's better described as 'give and take'.

Zombrex

Scigaithris wrote:

Can we define free will and then proceed with a discussion as to whether it is real, a myth, a social construction of reality, or perhaps something else (from other perspectives)?

Free will is problematic from a religious point of view because of two factors

1 - God knows the future, which means there can only be one future, which cannot change based on our choices (ie you will only ever make the choice you will make, the future is already decided

2 - God created time and the universe.

The second point is important. Often theists who believe in free will will argue that just because God knows what will happen doesn't mean he has any direct influence in what happens, and therefore we are not in any way fixed into a course of action. The decision for what happens is purely on us, God simply observes.

The problem with that is that if 1 is true the universe only has one time line, and that time line is fixed from the moment of creation. Nothing that happens at any point on this time can alter the future time line, because for God to know the future this future time line must be fixed.

The only point that can actually effect the entire time line to be different that it is going to be is the moment of creation. And the only intelligence that is active at the moment of creation is God.

While we may believe that we are able at a particular point on this time to make a choice, the choice that we will make is already fixed, it was fixed when the time line was created.

Because the universe cannot create itself, it must be created by God, and because the time line for this universe must also be created at the moment of creation, ultimately God must create this time line for it to exist.

God must create the time line on which appear to make choices, which means that our choices are ultimately fixed at the moment of creation by the creation of the universe, which is an action of God.

This would not be the case if the universe could some how create itself, in which case the creation of the universe's time line would be independent of any direct action of God. But my understanding of Christian doctrine is that God created everything in the universe.

Free will is ultimately a logical impossibility, or paradox, from a religious point of view where a deity is all knowing and created the universe (set everything in motion). Though no doubt few theists here will accept that since free will, the ability to choose to follow the religion or reject it, is at the heart of most religions systems of reward/punishment.

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote:

The second point is important. Often theists who believe in free will will argue that just because God knows what will happen doesn't mean he has any direct influence in what happens, and therefore we are not in any way fixed into a course of action. The decision for what happens is purely on us, God simply observes.

The problem with that is that if 1 is true the universe only has one time line, and that time line is fixed from the moment of creation. Nothing that happens at any point on this time can alter the future time line, because for God to know the future this future time line must be fixed.

The only point that can actually effect the entire time line to be different that it is going to be is the moment of creation. And the only intelligence that is active at the moment of creation is God.

While we may believe that we are able at a particular point on this time to make a choice, the choice that we will make is already fixed, it was fixed when the time line was created.

Because the universe cannot create itself, it must be created by God, and because the time line for this universe must also be created at the moment of creation, ultimately God must create this time line for it to exist.
God must create the time line on which appear to make choices, which means that our choices are ultimately fixed at the moment of creation by the creation of the universe, which is an action of God.

This would not be the case if the universe could some how create itself, in which case the creation of the universe's time line would be independent of any direct action of God. But my understanding of Christian doctrine is that God created everything in the universe.

Free will is ultimately a logical impossibility, or paradox, from a religious point of view where a deity is all knowing and created the universe (set everything in motion). Though no doubt few theists here will accept that since free will, the ability to choose to follow the religion or reject it, is at the heart of most religions systems of reward/punishment.

The bold Italic bit is where the reasoning falls apart. The time line is fixed based upon the free choices we as humans make, not on what God makes.

Just because He knows what we are going to do ahead of time does not remove our choice.

Today I can choose to go out and rob a bank. Both God and I know I'm not going to do it, but I could choose to.

We can choose to do anything we want, just because God knows what it is doesn't negate the fact we have it.

Fanny Cradock

I can't see how God's knowledge of the future implies that we have no free will.

An example (poor though it is):

A documentary maker is filming a pride of Lions. He notices that they happened to come upon a very young and gravely injured Impala. They Lions circle around the weakened creature, ready to pounce. If you were to ask the person filming in the moments before the Lions attack 'what will happen to the Impala', I think they would say that it certain (I use that term lightly. I realise that there is no such thing as 100% certainty) that the defenceless animal would soon be dead. Knowing (or at least extrapolating) the unfortunate fate of the Impala and the actions of the Lions didn't impact on the course of events.

Of course that example is still subject to linear time. We cant really say what will happen - only guess. God on the other hand...

Demetrius

BrianCalgary wrote:

The bold Italic bit is where the reasoning falls apart. The time line is fixed based upon the free choices we as humans make, not on what God makes.

I don't understand that part. If God created the universe and he knows the future, then the universe is ticking away from big bang onwards with no interference from him.

We have no choice because everything has been predetermined from Big-Bang/Creation-of-the-universe onwards.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote:

The bold Italic bit is where the reasoning falls apart. The time line is fixed based upon the free choices we as humans make, not on what God makes.

But thats the point, it can't be Brain because God must know the future before we get to the point in the time line where we make this choice.

For God to know the entire future the entire future must exist as one single time line. This time line extends back to the moment of creation, and it is only at the moment of creation that it can be changed

Once time has started the future cannot be changed by anything that is on that time line. Otherwise God could not know the future because the future would be indeterminate.

BrianCalgary wrote:

Just because He knows what we are going to do ahead of time does not remove our choice.

You are right, but the fact that he creates the time line in the first place does, or more specifically it over rules any "choice" we appear to make.

When God creates the universe he creates a time line based on the initial set up of that universe. That time line cannot change, it is dependent on the initial setup of the universe.

Each of the different setups of a universe, each of the different initial value, will produce a unique time line. But once that time line has been started its path cannot be altered, because God knows its path.

Therefore the only thing that truely can alter the future, alter the timeline, is the initial setup of the universe.

Anything else that happens on the time line will only do what has already be determined that it will do, because the time line can never change.

BrianCalgary wrote:

Today I can choose to go out and rob a bank. Both God and I know I'm not going to do it, but I could choose to.

No, actually you couldn't because if you did choose to the future would be different to what God knows it will be. Which is impossible.

Keeping it simply, say today you do 3 things. You eat breakfast, you driver to work, and you have McDonalds for lunch.

The time line in which you do this is fixed. It has to be fixed because God, even a billion years ago, knew you would do this.

Ah you say, just because God knew I would do this doesn't mean I didn't choose to do it. Yes that is half right.

But think of it this way. Can there exist a time line where you don't do this? Say a time line where you skip breakfast.

There cannot be in this universe, because the time line where you eat breakfast is fixed. God knows you are going to do this, so you cannot ever not do it, otherwise God would be wrong.

So how can there exist a time line where you skip breakfast. To find at time line where you skip breakfast you have to go all the way back to the start of the time line, back to year 0.

If the initial settings of the point of creation were tweaked some how, then there could be a time line where you do skip breakfast. This alternate universe plays out and instead of eating breakfast you decide to skip breakfast. God of course knows you are going to do this, you are not breaking the time line because this is a different time line to the original one in the original universe.

Ultimately there can only be one time line for each universe. For a different time line to exist there needs to be a different universe as well. The only thing that can do that is God.

More importantly for any time line to exist at all there must but a universe created by God, and once this universe is created that time line is fixed.

So based on the initial setup of the universe you will get a unique time line that cannot be changed. God handles the initial set up of the universe so he is ultimately responsible for what ever time line pops out based on how the universe is set up.

There is no where in this for individual choice. You don't exist at the moment of creation so you cannot decide anything at this point. Once the universe has been created you are locked into what every time line that universe produces.

You may think you have choice, but you can only do one thing at each choice on this time line, and the time line in which you do this one thing has already been created based on how God created the universe

Zombrex

Fanny Cradock wrote:

I can't see how God's knowledge of the future implies that we have no free will.

It doesn't.

God's knowledge of the future implies that the time line we are on is fixed to a single path. It cannot change, because otherwise God would be wrong. The future is fixed to what God knows the future will be.

Working with that, God's creation of the universe in the first place, coupled with the fact that the time line associated with this universe cannot change, implies that we have no free will, because what "choice" we make at any point in time tied to the time line itself. We can't ever make a choice that isn't in the time line.

There is only one point at which the time line can change, which is the moment of creation. Once it is started it is fixed to one single path, no matter what choice we think we have. At any single point in time we will only ever make the choice that is within the bounds of the time line.

The time line on which our choices sit has to come from somewhere, it didn't create itself. It is created by the initial set up of the universe.

The thing that sets up the initial conditions of the universe, and thus the time line, is God.

Since God knows all he knows the consequences of this action, he knows every effect that such a set up will cause for the time line.

He must pick some initial set up, because without one the universe would not exist. By picking the initial set up he picks a time line associated with the universe.

Therefore God picks the time line. He must pick the choices we will make when he picks the time line, there is no other option for the universe to exist, since the universe cannot pick its own initial starting point.

roar_ie

I have always kind of thought about it this way. God is all knowing. So what stops him from knowing all the timelines that could occur from any given choice/decision. So we still have free will, it is a case of God already knowing all the possible outcomes from the decision.

This kind of opens up the question of whether there is an infinite number of universes in parallel generated by all these choices. I think that ultimately this is a moot point as we live only the one timeline and we don't have any experience. In the end we all die and I believe that God simply knows all the possible paths that leads us there.

Demetrius

roar_ie wrote:

I have always kind of thought about it this way. God is all knowing. So what stops him from knowing all the timelines that could occur from any given choice/decision. So we still have free will, it is a case of God already knowing all the possible outcomes from the decision.

There is only one timeline, though...this one right here in which we are having this discussion. My choice to continue or discontinue posting here has already beeing settled from the creation point of the universe.

Free will is an illusion, methinks.

Zombrex

roar_ie wrote:

I have always kind of thought about it this way. God is all knowing. So what stops him from knowing all the timelines that could occur from any given choice/decision. So we still have free will, it is a case of God already knowing all the possible outcomes from the decision.

But that would imply that God doesn't know what option we will pick, only the options themselves. That doesn't fit with the concept of an all knowing God

God knows what choice we make at any point in time, since he is all knowing. If you are given the option between an apple and orange, God knows you pick, and always would have, picked apple. The time line where you pick orange doesn't exist because you never do pick orange. As Demetrius says, there is only one time line, and God knows it.

Therefore all the other out comes of these choices, the other time lines, are irrelevant. They don't exist. We only actually make one choice at any particular option, and God already knows what that choice is.

The time line on which this choice is made is created by God as a result of the creation of the universe.

Its like a big stick. If you pick up one end of the stick and move it, the other end of the stick will move even if you are not directly holding it, because the two ends are linked together. A change at the end of the stick will effect the entire stick up to the other end.

roar_ie

We only experience one timeline. That doesn't mean there aren't more that could have occured. For us the future of our current timeline doesn't exist until we arrive to that point in time.

The question is whether everthing is predestined or do we have a real choice. I think we do have free will and choices to make that determine the timeline we experience. Our perception of time is linear for the most part, which is ultimately the problem. That doesn't apply to God, or at least I really doubt it does.

For God every future timeline is known. Also every past timeline that could of occured would also be known. That is the point of being all-knowing. Nothing will ever happen that God didn't know could of happened. It's more of a case that nothing will ever surprise God.

Wicknight:
Does it matter what option we pick if God knows all the options we could of picked and their outcomes including the one we eventually choose? Is it not the same? This would perserve the concept of free will and of God being all knowing.

Demetrius

roar_ie wrote:

We only experience one timeline. That doesn't mean there aren't more that could have occured. For us the future of our current timeline doesn't exist until we arrive to that point in time.

The question is whether everthing is predestined or do we have a real choice. I think we do have free will and choices to make that determine the timeline we experience. Our perception of time is linear for the most part, which is ultimately the problem. That doesn't apply to God, or at least I really doubt it does.

No, we do not determine the time-line. We are locked into it, a part of it....the whole concept of us having a choice in terms of "changing" a time-line is wrong, an illusion.

We make "choices" all the time, them being concious or unconcious decisions, but...its like we are travelling on a rail-road, and we are locked into it...our "choices" have already been laid down in this time-line no matter what we think, or "choose" at a particular time.

Demetrius

For God every future timeline is known. Also every past timeline that could of occured would also be known. That is the point of being all-knowing. Nothing will ever happen that God didn't know could of happened. It's more of a case that nothing will ever surprise God.

One universe, one timeline...to have other timelines, God would create a seperate universe each time for them to run their course.

BrianCalgary

Demetrius wrote:

I don't understand that part. If God created the universe and he knows the future, then the universe is ticking away from big bang onwards with no interference from him.

We have no choice because everything has been predetermined from Big-Bang/Creation-of-the-universe onwards.

It has not been predetermined at all, God does get involved if we invite Him to.

We still make that choice, and we determine where our lives go.

God did not set the timeline. He set creation in motion, we set th etimeline, God just knows how it will be played out, thus He was prepared to offer Himself up as the sacrififce for the sin that was to be committed.

The sin was not a surprise, the solution was even to Satan.
God just knows how it works out.

Zombrex

roar_ie wrote:

We only experience one timeline. That doesn't mean there aren't more that could have occured.

That isn't possible if God exists and is all knowing. For God to be all knowing he must know the choices we make at any particular point in time. If these choices are not fixed but instead flexible, then how does God know which choice we make?

If you are arguing that both choices exist, or more specifically that every choice a different universe splits off in which there exists a version of me that picked apples and version of me that picked oranges, that again doesn't fit within a religious frame work of being responsible for your choices.

If both options exist then there was actually no choice (how do I decided if I end up universe A or because a version of me ends up in both universes. Does God punish the "bad" version. More importantly, how do I decide not to be the bad version, to be the good version instead? The whole idea of choice still doesn't work. It just becomes recursive. At some point there must be a choice. If there is a choice there has to be an out come that doesn't happen.

Demetrius

It has not been predetermined at all, God does get involved if we invite Him to.

We still make that choice, and we determine where our lives go.

God did not set the timeline. He set creation in motion, we set th etimeline, God just knows how it will be played out, thus He was prepared to offer Himself up as the sacrififce for the sin that was to be committed.

The sin was not a surprise, the solution was even to Satan.
God just knows how it works out.

If God created everything and God knows all, then he knew from moment he created the universe that it would result in us here having this discussion.

He already knows whether or not we "choose" or have chosen (or not as the case may be) to invite him into our lives as he created the universe.

This "choice" has already been determined...for if it hasn't been determined, then God does not know the future, and has not known the future from the moment he flicked the universe into life, and so is not all-knowing.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote:

God did not set the timeline. He set creation in motion, we set th etimeline

"We" don't exist at the moment of creation, and as such we cannot determine the time line.

By the time we come along the time line has already been set, because God already knows the entire future. Not only is it set it cannot be changed, because God cannot be wrong.

If the time line had not been set until we actually make a choice in it then it would be impossible for God to know the future beyond that moment.

BrianCalgary wrote:

God just knows how it will be played out

That means it can only play out one way. There is one, and only one, time line.

That time line is set from the moment of creation because from the moment of creation God is able to see the entire time line. From that moment on it cannot be anything but what it is.

BrianCalgary

Demetrius wrote:

If God created everything and God knows all, then he knew from moment he created the universe that it would result in us here having this discussion.

He already knows whether or not we "choose" or have chosen (or not as the case may be) to invite him into our lives as he created the universe.

This "choice" has already been determined...for if it hasn't been determined, then God does not know the future, and has not known the future from the moment he flicked the universe into life, and so is not all-knowing.

But we are the ones who make that detrmination, not God.

I can put two foods in front of my kid and offer him the choice. He detrmines what he eats. My knowing his decision prior to him making it does not negate him making that choice.

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote:

"We" don't exist at the moment of creation, and as such we cannot determine the time line.

By the time we come along the time line has already been set, because God already knows the entire future. Not only is it set it cannot be changed, because God cannot be wrong.

If the time line had not been set until we actually make a choice in it then it would be impossible for God to know the future beyond that moment.


That means it can only play out one way. There is one, and only one, time line.

That time line is set from the moment of creation because from the moment of creation God is able to see the entire time line. From that moment on it cannot be anything but what it is.

I agree, but the timeline is made by our choices, not Gods.

If it was God's choice then we'd all be saved as God wants that:
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Demetrius

BrianCalgary wrote:

But we are the ones who make that detrmination, not God.

I can put two foods in front of my kid and offer him the choice. He detrmines what he eats. My knowing his decision prior to him making it does not negate him making that choice.

The fact that you already know his "decision" is the point. You already know how things will pan out in that example...there is no "choice". He was always going to "choose" one over the other and you already knew his "choice". To you, this was not a choice but just a motion that he performed, for you knew how things would pan out.

He fulfils his destiny of picking Food A over Food B, and this Food A was always going to be selected, for you knew that it would be selected.

bus77

Demetrius wrote:

The fact that you already know his "decision" is the point. You already know how things will pan out in that example...there is no "choice". He was always going to "choose" one over the other and you already knew his "choice". To you, this was not a choice but just a motion that he performed, for you knew how things would pan out.

He fulfils his destiny of picking Food A over Food B, and this Food A was always going to be selected, for you knew that it would be selected.

Yes, but he wouldnt know his sons favorite food before he was born.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote:

I agree, but the timeline is made by our choices, not Gods.

As I keep explaining, the time line exists before we do, and the time line is linked to the universe. One universe, one time line. That is the only way it can be. The only way to alter the time line is to alter the universe. The only thing that can do that is God.

Our choices made in the time line cannot change the time line because it has already been created as a whole before us and it itself cannot change.

Each universe has a time line, this time line cannot change because God already knows it. God cannot be wrong, therefore the timeline cannot fluctuate or alter from what God already knows it is going to be.

The only thing that can determine a time line is God at the moment of creation based on how the universe is set up. If God creates a universe which in turn creates a time line where you pick option A then you will always pick option A in that time line. The only way for you to pick option B is if God created a different universe in which a time line exists where you picked option B

You can say that you have a choice between option A and option B, but in reality you don't, because you exist in one time line, and you can never do what is not in the timeline.

God cannot help but create the time line because it has to be set to something from the very start.

Your choice A is only an outcome because of the timeline of the universe. The time line of the universe only exists because God created it. It cannot exist on its own, and you cannot change it from the way it was created.

BrianCalgary wrote:

If it was God's choice then we'd all be saved as God wants that:
2 Peter 3:9

Well that is clearly the conundrum that Christianity finds itself in.

You want to believe in free will because your system of reward/punishment depends on it.

On the other hand you have the idea of an all knowing God and a God that created the universe, which negates the idea of free will, of the ability to truly make a choice at any particular point in time.

Fanny Cradock

Wicknight wrote:

As I keep explaining...

Well, you can keep explaining because foreknowledge doesn't equate to our destinies being determined by God (or anyone person for that matter).

Wicknight wrote:

Our choices made in the time line cannot change the time line because it has already been created as a whole before us and it itself cannot change.

Really, I fail to see the difference between watching someone's entire life - every moment - on a TV screen after they are dead and knowing what they will do before they are born. In neither case do you influence their choices (assuming there is no interaction) and results remains same, i.e. it's their life and their choices. God masters time; we are subject to it. Yes, for us it is linear - in so far as there is a start and a finish - yet this doesn't preclude the possibility that your life within this one dimensional existence cannot take various paths (albeit they lead to the same end point). This means that choices aren't determined by God, the universe or time to the extent that if you choose A it automatically leads you to B... to C... to D... etc.

It seems as if it's a conundrum for you! It makes sense to me

Demetrius

Fanny Cradock wrote:

Really, I fail to see the difference between watching someone's entire life - every moment - on a TV screen after they are dead and knowing what they will do before they are born.

There is a difference between watching someone's life, and bringing that life into existance, for if God creates the universe and knows all, then at the moment of creation he knows all that a certain person will and will not do for he sets the universe going that will ultimately result in that person.

The fact that he created the universe, means that he created, say, the Big Bang which gives rise to a mass of dust, which coagulates into the sun and earth, which gives rise to bacteria, which evolves for a few million years until I show up. The moment that he creates the universe, he decides me, and everything that happens to me, and all the "choices" I make. To him these are not choices-these are functions I perform, same as breathing, for he already knows my path and all that happens to me.

In neither case do you influence their choices (assuming there is no interaction) and results remains same, i.e. it's their life and their choices. God masters time; we are subject to it. Yes, for us it is linear - in so far as there is a start and a finish - yet this doesn't preclude the possibility that your life within this one dimensional existence cannot take various paths (albeit they lead to the same end point). This means that choices aren't determined by God, the universe or time to the extent that if you choose A it automatically leads you to B... to C... to D... etc.

If God creates the universe, then we have no choices. God knows all, so to him these "choices" we make, are merely functions, for he has "programmed" the universe to ultimately bring you and me into existence.

How can God be surprised by any action we take? He created the universe and ultimately us, and all that will happen to us from the creation-point of the universe-we are just running our lives out like ticker-tape...ticker-tape that God has programmed the universe to print out...there are no surprises to him.:)

Zombrex

Fanny Cradock wrote:

Well, you can keep explaining because foreknowledge doesn't equate to our destinies being determined by God (or anyone person for that matter).

You are right, it doesn't, as I keep explaining

The foreknowledge of God simply means that the time line can never change. That in of itself does not mean God determines our destinies.

The bit that makes our destinies determined by God is the creation of the universe, which in turn creates the actual time line we exist on. Since this time line cannot change it is set from the moment of creation based on how that creation happens. One universe, one time line. The only being that has influence over the moment of creation is God. The only being that is able to chance the time line is God. Once the time line has been created it cannot change no matter what "choices" we appear to make on the time line.

Fanny Cradock wrote:

Really, I fail to see the difference between watching someone's entire life - every moment - on a TV screen after they are dead and knowing what they will do before they are born.

That is because there isn't one. In both cases what you are watching cannot change. The past cannot change and equally the future cannot change.

Fanny Cradock wrote:

In neither case do you influence their choices (assuming there is no interaction) and results remains same, i.e. it's their life and their choices.

But God does influence the choices because he creates the time line in the first place through the process of creating the universe.

That is the important bit.

At a particular point in time it may appear to us that we have the option of A or B. But the time line is fixed to A, so we can only ever pick A. Of course we are not ware of this fact, but to pick B would contradict God's all knowing, so while we may like to think we can pick A and B we only ever pick A. The important point is that this fact exists before we are born. Before we are born the time line is always fixed to us only ever picking A. In fact all the way back to the point of creation the time line is fixed so that we only ever pick A. While it appears to us that we have a choice between A and B, if we actually did pick B we would need a new time line, because we cannot break out of the time line we are in. The only way for a new time line in which we do pick B is for God to set the universe up differently. Even then we would not actually have choice, because we could only pick B in this alternate universe's time line.

Fanny Cradock wrote:

Yes, for us it is linear - in so far as there is a start and a finish - yet this doesn't preclude the possibility that your life within this one dimensional existence cannot take various paths (albeit they lead to the same end point).

God knowing the future does. If God knows what choice you will make at any point in time then you can only ever make that choice, otherwise God would not be all knowing.

Fanny Cradock wrote:

It seems as if it's a conundrum for you! It makes sense to me

Only because you are ignoring the doctrine of your own religion.

Fanny Cradock

Wicknight wrote:

You are right, it doesn't [foreknowledge doesn't equate to our destinies being determined by God], as I keep explaining

At least we agree on that! Or do we? See later in the post...

Wicknight wrote:

Only because you are ignoring the doctrine of your own religion.

I'm ignoring nothing. Accepting God by your own volition is central to what we are taught in the Bible.

Wicknight wrote:

The bit that makes our destinies determined by God is the creation of the universe, which in turn creates the actual time line we exist on. Since this time line cannot change it is set from the moment of creation based on how that creation happens. One universe, one time line. The only being that has influence over the moment of creation is God. The only being that is able to chance the time line is God. Once the time line has been created it cannot change no matter what "choices" we appear to make on the time line.

Again, I don't accept that in creating the universe (including time) God determined every action that we 'apparently' choose to take or, for that matter, he set in motion every event that is outside our control.

My take on that matter is that when God created the universe he didn't make a plodding, static universe - A... B... C... Instead, he created a dynamic universe that has freedom of choice. However, I would think that at points in it's - the universe's - existence, he has put in place certain nodes that are fixed points. These must happen. For example, the universe's beginning and it's end, our creation and Jesus coming, the rest is up to us. In linear programming there is a start and an end, though, the model need not be rigidly linear, like a ruler or taut piece of string. There are many choices to be made that can lead you all over the place - backwards, forwards, in circles. Ultimately, depending on it's complexity, there will be more than one path to take in the model.

Wicknight wrote:

At a particular point in time it may appear to us that we have the option of A or B. But the time line is fixed to A, so we can only ever pick A. Of course we are not ware of this fact, but to pick B would contradict God's all knowing, so while we may like to think we can pick A and B we only ever pick A.

Assuming that our choices are not fixed - I don't see why it should be rigidly fixed - the above seem like a massive contradiction to me in light of the two quotes below:

Originally Posted by Fanny Cradock
Well, you can keep explaining because foreknowledge doesn't equate to our destinies being determined by God (or anyone person for that matter).

Originally Posted by Wicknight
You are right, it doesn't, as I keep explaining

Again, I see the below as a contradiction to the above two ^

Originally Posted by Wicknight
God knowing the future does [preclude the possibility that your life can take various paths]. If God knows what choice you will make at any point in time then you can only ever make that choice, otherwise God would not be all knowing.

Wicknight wrote:

The important point is that this fact exists before we are born. Before we are born the time line is always fixed to us only ever picking A.

How do you know this 'fact'? What leads you to the conclusion there is no choice B? People like Brian (I hope I'm not putting words into your mouth) and myself would indeed believe that there is a choice B and more... You can live in a flexible linear existence and still have choices.

Is it a prerequisite of atheism to think that anyone who believes in an omnipotent God should have to believe his universe is subject to a one-dimensional time-frame so inflexible that he has basically determined our choices? That's not a snotty question, btw.

Demetrius

I think the word "choice" and the fact that God is an all-knowing creator of the universe is causing problems in this thread.

The fact that there are many routes that may be taken is irrelevant. What is important is the one that was (was to be) taken, and if God is the all-knowing creator, then he knew which route we were going to take...always.

How can God be all-knowing and also at the same time be ignorant of the "choices" that I have made yesterday, today and tommorrow?

Choice in this context of an all-knowing creator is an illusion.

Zombrex

Fanny Cradock wrote:

I'm ignoring nothing. Accepting God by your own volition is central to what we are taught in the Bible.

Did God create the universe?

Does God know everything?

Fanny Cradock wrote:

Again, I don't accept that in creating the universe (including time) God determined every action that we 'apparently' choose to take or, for that matter, he set in motion every event that is outside our control.

Well if you can explain a way that it could work without this happening I'm all ears. Simply saying you don't accept it doesn't really work as a counter-argument.

Fanny Cradock wrote:

My take on that matter is that when God created the universe he didn't make a plodding, static universe - A... B... C... Instead, he created a dynamic universe that has freedom of choice.

If there is true freedom of choice (ie the future is not decided until we actually decide something, and all out comes of that decision are possible until the decision is actually made) then how can God know what we will decide before we actually make this decision?

Saying we are free to choose but God knows what we will choose doesn't work, because how can we be actually free to choose if God already knows we will choose option A and we therefore cannot ever choose option B?

At the moment of choice influences us to choose A, but that doesn't change the fact that we cannot choose B.

What influences us is the time line itself. The time line when we choose B does not exist, and cannot exist. That is ultimately a decision of God.

Fanny Cradock wrote:

Ultimately, depending on it's complexity, there will be more than one path to take in the model.

That isn't possible if God is all knowing, since having the a situation where a path is not chosen until the decision is made by the person means that God cannot know what decision is going to be made until the decision is actually made.

If on the other hand God knows what decision is going to be made before the decision is made then really there is no decision, just the illusion of decision, since the person can never do the opposite of what God knows they are going to do.

Fanny Cradock wrote:

Assuming that our choices are not fixed

If you assume that you go against the doctrine that God is all knowing, because if the choices are not fixed until they are made God cannot know what choice you will made until you actually make it.

NB this is nothing to do with God influencing you, this is about God knowing the future. If God knows the future there can only be one future, the one that God knows.

Fanny Cradock wrote:

Again, I see the below as a contradiction to the above two ^

Originally Posted by Wicknight
God knowing the future does [preclude the possibility that your life can take various paths]. If God knows what choice you will make at any point in time then you can only ever make that choice, otherwise God would not be all knowing.

Its not.

There are two concepts in play here

Firstly there is only one future, which is already set as part of the time line in which we travel. This is the case because God knows the future.

As Demetrius points out this means the future is not about multiple paths or choices, it is a single straight line function. Choice is an illusion.

That doesn't in of itself mean that God determines anything. But the next question is where does this single time line come from?

The time line comes from the universe. To alter the time line you have to go back to a point where there is no time, the moment of creation. From that point on there is one, and only one, time line. And who is there at the moment of creation? God

When God creates the universe he cannot help but create the time line that will span the entire history and future of the universe.

Fanny Cradock wrote:

How do you know this 'fact'?

Because it says so in the Bible, clearly

Your religion teaches that God is all knowing. Am I wrong about this?

Fanny Cradock wrote:

What leads you to the conclusion there is no choice B?

Because to choose B when God has foreseen you are choosing A would mean God is incorrect, which means God is not all knowing.

At every point in time you can only pick the one option that God already knows you are going to pick. The other "choices" are irrelevant.

Fanny Cradock wrote:

People like Brian (I hope I'm not putting words into your mouth) and myself would indeed believe that there is a choice B and more... You can live in a flexible linear existence and still have choices.

Not if God knows everything.

Fanny Cradock wrote:

Is it a prerequisite of atheism to think that anyone who believes in an omnipotent God should have to believe his universe is subject to a one-dimensional time-frame so inflexible that he has basically determined our choices? That's not a snotty question, btw.

No, it is an advantage of atheism that one is not under the assumption that a particular religious doctrine, or combination of doctrine, are supposed to work and make sense together.

It is common occurrence that an atheist will often regard theists as being people who do not really thinking about, or choosing to ignore, the logical constraints and contradictions of their various religious doctrines when they are applied together. They do this for the obvious reasons, they want to believe it all makes sense.

This thread unfortunately does not change that perception.

Fanny Cradock

Maybe our existence is linear but this thread is cyclical.

For the laugh I'll quote the both of us again:

Fanny Cradock wrote:

Well, you can keep explaining because foreknowledge doesn't equate to our destinies being determined by God (or anyone person for that matter).

Wicknight wrote:

You are right, it doesn't, as I keep explaining

Your response suggests that you agree with me.

Fanny Cradock wrote:

I can't see how God's knowledge of the future implies that we have no free will.

Wicknight wrote:

It doesn't.

Again we are in apparent agreement! However...

Wicknight wrote:

If on the other hand God knows what decision is going to be made before the decision is made then really there is no decision, just the illusion of decision, since the person can never do the opposite of what God knows they are going to do.

It's it me or you who is confused?

I know that a game of football will start at 3:00. At 3:45 it will be half-time. 15 minutes later they start playing again. At 4:45 the game will end. My knowledge of these times (give or take) doesn't impact on the play of the game. This fits in with my suggestion (I'm not speaking for Christians at large here) that the universe may well be constrained to a linear time line along with existing nodal points - events that must happen, e.g. the start and the end, but there still remains flexibility and freedom of choice before those events that must happen.

We are going around in circles here. I can't see how a universe created without God could be any different from the one-dimensional linear universe we have been talking about up till now. Assuming you believe we are subject to such linear time frames - explain to me how the ability to make free choice is possible in a God free universe and not in one created by God. For arguments sake, if you end up making exactly the same choices in both universes, how are the choices in one (the universe without God) based on freedom of choice and the other (omnipotent God) not?

Why i ask is:
1) I'm genuinely interested. Do you believe that there are infinite universes etc? If so, I still don't see how you have freedom to choose in this one;
2) I'm a little confused because at times you seem to agree that God knowing our choices doesn't impact on our freedom. At other times you state the opposite (see the quotes);
3) Assuming you believe we inhabit a linear time line, how does your linear time line (no God) afford you free choice and mine (known by God) doesn't?

Wicknight wrote:

Well if you can explain a way that it could work without this happening I'm all ears. Simply saying you don't accept it doesn't really work as a counter-argument.

I believe I did pose a counter-argument Although one clearly not to your satisfaction. Oh well...

PDN

The existence of free will and the foreknowledge of an omniscient God are difficult to understand. This speaks more about our finite understanding than about logical contradictions.

All analogies will, of course, fall short, but try this for size. I was watching the recorded highlights of a football game recently. I was screaming at the screen, "Shoot! Shoot!" My wife asked me, "Do you think he can hear you?" I had to admit that not only could Emmanuel Adebayor not hear me but, since the match was played earlier in the day, he was probably in the pub at the very time that I was screaming at him to shoot.

The fact that I viewed his actions after the event in no way impinged on his free will in making that decision. In the same way, if we can imagine an omniscient God viewing the highlights of the game before it happened, that would also in no way affect the issue of Adebayor's exercise of free will in choosing whether to shoot or not. In other words, the 'tense' of an observed decision (ie. present, past or future), has no necessary bearing on the freedom of the one making the decision.

There appears to be a tendency, among those opposing theism, to label as a "contradiction" anything that they themselves have difficulty in understanding.

Zombrex

Fanny Cradock wrote:

It's it me or you who is confused?

Its you

Well not confused, you seem to be ignoring the 2nd point, that God makes the time line when he creates the universe.

Fanny Cradock wrote:

I know that a game of football will start at 3:00. At 3:45 it will be half-time. 15 minutes later they start playing again. At 4:45 the game will end. My knowledge of these times (give or take) doesn't impact on the play of the game.

You are right, but it does impact of the fact that the game can never start at 3:08, half-time can never be at 3:46 and the game can never end early at 4:40.

If you knew that Owen will score a goal at 3:14 in the right hand corner, Owen will never and can never score the goal instead at 3:12 in the left hand corner. No matter what choice Owen thinks he has during the game he can only ever do what you already know he will do. Otherwise you would be wrong, and assuming you are God in this analogy, you cannot be wrong.

In fact, assuming you are God, Owen is destined to score a goal at 3:14 in the right hand corner before he is even born, born the Earth exists, before the universe exists. The time line will follow that path to that point simply because it cannot do anything else since you know how it will be.

As I keep saying, that in of itself doesn't mean that you decide this.

But if you were the entity that actually created the time line in the first place (ie God when he made the universe) then it does actually mean you decide this because the time line has to be set to something, and only God can set it to something. Not only that but for time to exist he has to set it to something, and because he knows everything he has to know and understand the consequences of him doing so.

Fanny Cradock wrote:

This fits in with my suggestion (I'm not speaking for Christians at large here) that the universe may well be constrained to a linear time line along with existing nodal points - events that must happen, e.g. the start and the end, but there still remains flexibility and freedom of choice before those events that must happen.

That would imply that there are some outcomes of choices or events that God does not know the result. As I keep saying, that contradicts the idea that God know everything.

Fanny Cradock wrote:

I can't see how a universe created without God could be any different from the one-dimensional linear universe we have been talking about up till now.

Without the omniscience of God (the ability to know everything) there is no requirement on the future to be fixed.

Owen's goal isn't fixed until he actually decides to score it. He might decide to score it at 3:12, he might decide to score it at 3:14. Since nothing in the present knows the future the future does not have to be a certain outcome.

It is only the perfect omniscience of God, the fact that God knows all and cannot be wrong, the requires that the future turns out as God in the present or past knows it will.

If God doesn't exist there is no requirement on the future to turn out a certain way. The future doesn't exist until you actually make the choice, so nothing can know the future in the present.

Fanny Cradock wrote:

1) I'm genuinely interested. Do you believe that there are infinite universes etc? If so, I still don't see how you have freedom to choose in this one;

I don't believe anything particular about time. Being the good atheists that I am I answer truthfully "I have absolutely no idea"

Fanny Cradock wrote:

2) I'm a little confused because at times you seem to agree that God knowing our choices doesn't impact on our freedom.

No, not quite.

God knowing our choices doesn't impact on our freedom because we don't actually have freedom to begin with.

We are confined to a particular time line. God knowing our choices means this time line must be singular and unchanging. But who ever created the time line decided the time line.

It just so happens that the only entity in the universe that could create the time line is also God, when he created the universe.

This is actually two separate conclusions, but they are linked.

It all comes back to God, because he is the only entity in your religion that does anything major with space and time. In a different religion though you could view it as two gods. One creates the universe and the time line, and the other constrains the time line to a single path by his omniscience.

Fanny Cradock wrote:

3) Assuming you believe we inhabit a linear time line, how does your linear time line (no God) afford you free choice and mine (known by God) doesn't?

I don't assume we inhabit a linear time line. We might, I've no idea. We might not actually have any free will either, I don't know. My personal feelings on the matter are largely irrelevant since I have nothing invested either way (again the advantages of being an atheists)

But if God exists and is omniscient, we have to inhabit a linear time line because anything else would contradict God's omniscience.

That is fine, I don't have any issue with that, but it does mean we don't have free will as Christians understand it, and the whole idea of choice and punishment based on those choices, which is at the heart of your religion, gets very very messy.

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote:

Its you

Well not confused, you seem to be ignoring the 2nd point, that God makes the time line when he creates the universe..

Sorry wicknight but it is you. God does not make the timeline. Just because He knows how it all sort out does not mean that He makes it. The timeline is predicated on our choices. You personally do not operate in God's will, you therefore can not and aren't controlled by God.

You are setting your own life, God just happens to know how it all turns out.

Zombrex

PDN wrote:

In the same way, if we can imagine an omniscient God viewing the highlights of the game before it happened, that would also in no way affect the issue of Adebayor's exercise of free will in choosing whether to shoot or not.

What happens if, when the present reaches that actual moment in time, he decides not to shoot when God had already seem him deciding to shoot.

Obviously that cannot happen, since God cannot be wrong, he will always decide to shoot since the time line where he doesn't shoot is not in existence.

If the time line where he shoots is the only one that exists, and that time line exists before he is even born, is he really deciding what to do. Or is it more a case that his decision has to match the time line that already exists.

If your decisions have to occur a certain way because of something that was decided before you were born, is that free will?

PDN wrote:

There appears to be a tendency, among those opposing theism, to label as a "contradiction" anything that they themselves have difficulty in understanding.

Well no offence PDN but you have basically just said it isn't a problem without giving a logical reason why or tackling the reasons why it is claimed it is a problem.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote:

God does not make the timeline.

Who does then?

And before you say "we all do", the time lines is set before we are born

BrianCalgary wrote:

Just because He knows how it all sort out does not mean that He makes it.

You are right.

The fact that he creates the universe means that he makes it.

The fact that he knows how it all sort outs means it cannot change after he has made it, which means nothing you do can alter the timeline

BrianCalgary wrote:

The timeline is predicated on our choices.

The time line is set before you make the choice

BrianCalgary wrote:

You personally do not operate in God's will, you therefore can not and aren't controlled by God.

You aren't controlled by God, you are confined by God.

You can do what ever you want, so long as it is the exact thing that the time line allows, nothing else

Any point that it appears you have a choice you actually don't, because there is only one out come, the outcome set by the time line.

As I said, if you are asked to choose a fruit but the only one in front of you is an apple which one will you pick. And did you really choose a fruit?

Scigaithris

An interesting discussion so far? It would appear at this point that BrianCalgary, Fanny Cradock, PDN, and roar_ie contend that free will exists, while Wicknight and Demetrius contend that it does not, all within the premise and context of God being omniscient?

As noted in the OP footnote, I struggle with the concept of free will, and for me, the jury is still out deliberating this issue. While I was reading (and rereading) your posts, two things came to mind, which I would hope you would consider commenting upon (Others reading this thread are encouraged to join us, too, with their comments).

Time Line Metaphor
A time line is linear by definition? The way it has been used in this discussion, is it finite? It has a beginning with Creation? Is this a dichotomony that ranges between beginning and end, of the universe, per se? In a Derridean sense (see Points), are there problems with this metaphor? Are there alternative ways to view free will within the context of God's omniscience, other than linear? Are there limitations in linear perspectives (e.g., limitations associated with positivist, constructionist, deterministic paradigms)?

G. Morgan in Organisational Imagination agrees that such metaphors are useful to aid us in our thinking and discussion, but also cautions that they are distortions of reality?

The Exercise of Free Will and God's Law?
Let's assume that God (through Moses) gave us the Ten Commandments. To what extent do we lose our free will if we obey His commands? If it were possible to honour His commands in a pure sense, without deviation, in essence would free will cease to exist for us while we honoured those commands?

A related issue. "Thou shalt..." is a command, not a choice? To choose in violation of the command is sinful? To what extent does the exercise of free will tend to be a negative (sinful) action as opposed to a positive action in light of the Commandments?

Zombrex

Scigaithris wrote:

Time Line Metaphor
A time line is linear by definition?

No, the time line is only linear because of God's omniscience.

It must be linear if God is all knowing, because if it wasn't and it was possible to take multiple undecided paths through the future, then what does God know about the future?

Scigaithris wrote:

The way it has been used in this discussion, is it finite?

Doesn't really matter, though both science and Christianity teaches that eventually the universe as we understand it will probably end.

Scigaithris wrote:

Let's assume that God (through Moses) gave us the Ten Commandments. To what extent do we lose our free will if we obey His commands?

Its a good question.

What people often forget is that free will is imply options that God allows us. We do not have universal free will.

For example God decided that we cannot fly unaided. Therefore we do not have the choice to fly. We have the options to run or walk or climb or jump. But we don't have the option to fly.

God has already decided the limits of our free will, even if one doesn't accept my points above about the time line.

PDN

Wicknight wrote:

What happens if, when the present reaches that actual moment in time, he decides not to shoot when God had already seem him deciding to shoot.

Obviously that cannot happen, since God cannot be wrong, he will always decide to shoot since the time line where he doesn't shoot is not in existence.

If the time line where he shoots is the only one that exists, and that time line exists before he is even born, is he really deciding what to do. Or is it more a case that his decision has to match the time line that already exists.

If your decisions have to occur a certain way because of something that was decided before you were born, is that free will?

You might as well ask what happens if the player, as I'm watching the action replay, makes a different decision on the video than he did in the actual game earlier that day.

Your comment about your decisions having to match "something that was decided before you were born" shows that the problem is in your head, not in any logical contradiction. The decision is made when the player kicks the ball, not before he was born - God simply sees that freely made decision in advance.

PDN

I think the problem with this thread is that our human minds really struggle to view time objectively. The idea of a timeline, for instance, appears to be based on the common-sense Newtonian concept of time as a river that flows steadily in one direction. That is how time appears to us from our subjective, and somewhat limited, viewpoint.

However, if time can also be viewed in other ways then some of the arguments expressed in this thread may become redundant. For example, Eternalism views the universe as a block, with four unchanging dimensions - the fourth dimension being time itself. Now, I am no scientist, but it appears to me that Einstein's Theory of Relativity should warn us against boldly proclaiming logical contradictions based on our limited perceptions of time and space.

I don't blame Wicknight for failing to understand how the ability of God (or indeed anyone else - logically his objection would apply to any premonition or predictive prophecy) to see into the future can be consistent with the exercise of free will. This is similar to how our minds struggle to comprehend the idea of eternity stretching endlessly into the past or the future (I distinctly remember the very idea giving me a headache when I was 7 years old!).

Another example of the human brain struggling to understand time has been demonstrated in a newspaper report I read this week in USA Today. Here's the online version: http://usatoday.com/tech/science/space/2007-05-07-supernova_N.htm?imw=Y
The article reports that astronomers are observing the burning up of a supernova star and are "continuing to track the supernova, waiting to see whether it continues to burn". However, since the star is (or more accurately 'was') 240 million light years away, it actually burnt out many millions of years ago. Similarly, astronomers have been waiting since the 1840s for Eta Carinae to explode - even though it may have actually exploded before Newgrange or the Pyramids were constructed. But they are actually just waiting for the image of that explosion to reach us over a distance of 7500 light years. My head is starting to hurt again!

Zombrex

PDN wrote:

You might as well ask what happens if the player, as I'm watching the action replay, makes a different decision on the video than he did in the actual game earlier that day.

That is exactly the point, he can't

Assuming God is omniscient, you have no more true choice to do something in the present than you have the ability to alter your past. The past is fixed, it cannot change, likewise so is the future.

PDN wrote:

The decision is made when the player kicks the ball, not before he was born
- God simply sees that freely made decision in advance.

Seriously do you not see the logical problem with that assertion.

If God sees the freely made decision "in advance" then it cannot be a freely made decision, because when the present actually reaches the player he can only do what God has already knows he will do.

What you are asserting is like saying that each time you watch the video tape of a football game the players on the TV are actually making freely made choices to play a certain way, you just happen to know exactly what their freely made choices are going to be.

The reality is of course that not decisions are being made, the players play exactly the same way each time because the past is fixed and cannot be altered.

If you can view the future with omniscience then it becomes as fixed and linear as the past.

PDN

Wicknight wrote:

If God sees the freely made decision "in advance" then it cannot be a freely made decision, because when the present actually reaches the player he can only do what God has already knows he will do.

What you are asserting is like saying that each time you watch the video tape of a football game the players on the TV are actually making freely made choices to play a certain way, you just happen to know exactly what their freely made choices are going to be.

Not so. You are comparing God's foreknowledge to the actual game, with the game itself being the video recording of God's foreknowledge. That is your basic mistake. God's foreknowledge is simply the equivalent of anyone travelling back in time (if such a thing were possible. Some scientists say such a thing is impossible, but the same pronouncements were made about aeroplanes and television etc) with a video of the game in their pocket. Whether you viewed the video in the past or the future would make no difference to the fact that the actual exercise of free will occurs in the game itself, not in anyone's observation (or foreknowledge) of the game.

Son Goku

PDN wrote:

Some scientists say such a thing is impossible, but the same pronouncements were made about aeroplanes and television

Nobody ever said television was impossible and aeroplanes were deemed to be too difficult to engineer. This is not the same as time travel which is forbidden at a kinematical level and which the universe specifically attempts to kill. See this page and the next if you're interested.

Fallen Seraph

PDN wrote:

God's foreknowledge is simply the equivalent of anyone travelling back in time with a video of the game in their pocket. Whether you viewed the video in the past or the future would make no difference to the fact that the actual exercise of free will occurs in the game itself, not in anyone's observation (or foreknowledge) of the game.

Is it possible that the players behave in any way other than that which is shown in the video? They can't.They MUST follow a course of events. This is indistinguishable from lack of free will, is it not?

PDN

Fallen Seraph wrote:

Is it possible that the players behave in any way other than that which is shown in the video? They can't.They MUST follow a course of events. This is indistinguishable from lack of free will, is it not?

No, because the video is simply an observation of what actually occurred on the soccer pitch. God's foreknowledge is an observation of our free-will decisions. The tense of the observation (past, present or future) does not alter this basic fact. This is the fundamental distinction between foreknowledge predestination.

In other words, the video is dependant upon the actual game, irrespective of whether I am watching the game live on TV, watching the video a week later, or (thanks to a hypothetical time machine) taking the video back to 1975 and watching it then.

Your reasoning is that, once I take the video back in time, the actual game becomes dependant on the video. That is false reasoning caused by our subjective understanding of time (ie our perception of how time appears rather than how time actually works). It is similar to someone basing an argument on the subjective 'fact' that the sun revolves around the earth because we can see it rising and setting each day, whereas the objective truth is, of course, very different.

Zombrex

PDN wrote:

Whether you viewed the video in the past or the future would make no difference to the fact that the actual exercise of free will occurs in the game itself, not in anyone's observation (or foreknowledge) of the game.

That isn't true, because for the actual exercise of free will to occur in the game itself the result of that choice has to be unknown up until that point. Otherwise it isn't free will

Fanny Cradock

Scigaithris wrote:

The Exercise of Free Will and God's Law?
Let's assume that God (through Moses) gave us the Ten Commandments. To what extent do we lose our free will if we obey His commands? If it were possible to honour His commands in a pure sense, without deviation, in essence would free will cease to exist for us while we honoured those commands?

A related issue. "Thou shalt..." is a command, not a choice? To choose in violation of the command is sinful? To what extent does the exercise of free will tend to be a negative (sinful) action as opposed to a positive action in light of the Commandments?

I touched on this in an earlier part of the thread. However, I don't think that it is exactly related to the subject matter of this thread.

In the case of above, you choose to follow the tenets of Christianity strictly by your own volition. In many respects I believe that faith (and therein adherence to Christian principles) is comparable to marriage or any serious relationship. You give up certain things you may otherwise want to do (e.g. having a quiet night in when you would prefer to be out with friends) for the sake of your loved one. In contrast, some would argue that an omniscient God is at odds with free will, and, therefore, call its existence into question.

Zombrex

PDN wrote:

Your reasoning is that, once I take the video back in time, the actual game becomes dependant on the video. That is false reasoning caused by our subjective understanding of time (ie our perception of how time appears rather than how time actually works).

The game does become dependent on the video.

Say you record the football and then travel back in time to before the match.

Because you (being God) cannot be wrong, the match must turn out as the video describes it.

So when the present catches up to the time of the game do any of the players have the option to not play the game as you have already observed them play? No, they don't. They must play the game that way. Of course they don't realise this, they think they have infinite options, but they will always play the game the way you have already recorded it.

You are confusing free will with the illusion of free will. For free will to be truly free will each choice must be available at the time the choice actually comes around. Saying that you have choice but that you will always choice option A isn't free will

Demetrius

Scigaithris wrote:

The Exercise of Free Will and God's Law?
Let's assume that God (through Moses) gave us the Ten Commandments. To what extent do we lose our free will if we obey His commands? If it were possible to honour His commands in a pure sense, without deviation, in essence would free will cease to exist for us while we honoured those commands?

God still is the all-knowing creator in your question, which still makes free will an illusion to us. The fact that he creates the universe and knows all, means that he can never be surprised...that everything has played out exactly as God knew from the moment the universe came into being.

However for the purposes of the example and question you pose, lets assume that we observe the 10 Commandments of "John", someone who is not omnescient, nor a creator of the universe...just a fellow human. There are no Gods in this example, nor anything supernatural.

If we obey John's Commandments to the T, then logically we are exercising our will on ourselves in observing his Commandments. An impulse to steal is immediately quashed by our own will, not by John's will. If we are going to observe something that someone commands, then our will overrides any impulse we have contrary to the command. It is our will to do (or not do) as someone says...in this example with John and all.

A related issue. "Thou shalt..." is a command, not a choice? To choose in violation of the command is sinful? To what extent does the exercise of free will tend to be a negative (sinful) action as opposed to a positive action in light of the Commandments?

Hmmmm...again, outside of time-lines, God and the universe, a command is ultimately just a suggestion when you think about it, an emphasised suggestion.

Again, "John" could command (strongly suggest) me not to steal but ultimately it is my will (or wills or the strongest of the wills of my impulses)whether or not to follow this suggestion. I have to take into account the fact that John might punish me if I don't follow his command, and so my will (or wills) may alter depending on the likelihood of being caught if failing to follow his suggestion.It all comes down to a series of internal pressures and conflicts within me...some wishing to follow a suggestion....others going against a suggestion, with the result seen by us as being our "will".

Again, outside of an all-knowing creator, and time-lines and everything, we would not have true free will as Wicknight says. I can only do what I am able to do, limited by my body and my mind.

Demetrius

PDN wrote:

No, because the video is simply an observation of what actually occurred on the soccer pitch. God's foreknowledge is an observation of our free-will decisions. The tense of the observation (past, present or future) does not alter this basic fact. This is the fundamental distinction between foreknowledge predestination.

In other words, the video is dependant upon the actual game, irrespective of whether I am watching the game live on TV, watching the video a week later, or (thanks to a hypothetical time machine) taking the video back to 1975 and watching it then.

God is not simply "only an observer"...he has known that his creation of the universe would result in the match playing out as it does...he has programmed the universe from the moment he creates it to play out the match as he knows it will be played.

The only choice, if God is all-knowing, is his at the moment of creation. I really cannot see how to emphasis more than it already has been.

Nothing can be changed from the moment he creates the universe for he is omniscient and knows all that will transpire from creation point onwards.

PDN

Demetrius wrote:

God is not simply "only an observer"...he has known that his creation of the universe would result in the match playing out as it does...he has programmed the universe from the moment he creates it to play out the match as he knows it will be played.

What you are describing is predestination, a doctrine taught by Augustine, greatly expanded by Calvin, and still subscribed to by a large number of Christians. However, an equally large number of Christians, myself among them, do not subscribe to such a deterministic view of God's creation and foreknowledge. Theologians have been debating this for centuries (John Wesley & George Whitefield are 2 names that spring to mind immediately) so I think it highly unlikely that we'll sort this one out to everyone's satisfaction on an internet message board.