Taoiseach's educational qualifications

Senator

Here's a simple question that one should be able to get a straight answer to (but which seems to be proving difficult). Has the Taoiseach Bertie Ahern got a degree from University College Dublin ?


Additional : You see, on the Taoiseach's Department website it says Bertie was educated at UCD -

http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/index.asp?locID=189&docID=-1

Yet UCD say they have no record of him having studied there. D.I.T., however, do have a record of him there. What's the story ?

Lennoxschips

No, according to the Indo.

Senator

Questions have frequently been raised about the third level qualifications of the Taoiseach. The education sections in his short biographies on the Fianna Fail and government web sites are decidedly vague. His education is merely listed as: "St. Aidan's CBS, Whitehall; Rathmines College of Commerce; University College Dublin."

Previously the Fianna Fail website mentioned The London School of Economics as one of the colleges where he received third level education. The Taoiseach has been quoted as saying he completed diploma courses at the LSE.

But his attendance at both UCD and the LSE have never been proven and there is no documentary record of any qualifications from either institution. The Taoiseach has never claimed any degree from UCD.

(from the Indo article cited.)

---

So why is the Dept. of the Taoiseach website saying he was educated at UCD ? What did he get there - a Media Studies cert ?

Stephen

Maybe he went there and dropped out? 0_o

Senator

Or maybe he forgot that he didn't go there ? Or maybe some of his friends went there on his behalf ?

A pattern is beginning to emerge with Bertie whereby certain things are claimed by him or on his behalf which, when tested, can't be stood up. A man who lies about his education on an official government website is capable of lying about anything.

murphaph

He's a fraud. Was he even an accountant or perhaps an accounting technician? I'm not claiming every candidate for Taoiseach requires third level (though I believe it helps, depending on that qualification) but be honest and upfront about it, Bertie.

The problem here is that his silly little rogueish face is still a commodity amongst the electorate and so the opposition parties dare not demonise him personally for fear he (and consequently FF) get a sympathy vote. Shame, they could go to town on him otherwise.

Senator

Bertie himself may well be a fraud ("dis-remembering" both his financial and educational background) but where does that leave the Department of the Taoiseach ? Do the civil servants of the State not check out and verify what they put on their official website ? It is a VERY serious matter when an Irish government website (never mind the partisan Fianna Fáil ones) which contains supposedly-checked official material published for public information and research purposes (among other uses) on behalf of the Irish State contains such blatantly inaccurate material. Can we take it that other Government Department sites are just as inaccurate ?

ArthurDent

In all fairness there can be explanations for this (can't believe I'm sticking up for Bertie!). My degree is from TCD but I didn't study there - I studied for my degree in the DIT before it could confer degrees and my PhD was from NUI/UCD even though again the vast majority of my work was carried out in DIT. I also studied in MIT - but didn't get a degree from there - so if I wanted to, I could say I attended MIT.

Not sure that the same happened to but if he did study in Rathmines it may well have been that any qualification he got from there could have been awarded from UCD

brianthebard

Would UCD not have a record of you on their system then?

po0k

Politics is the only vocation for which no prior qualification is deemed necesary.

ArthurDent

brianthebard wrote:

Would UCD not have a record of you on their system then?

If this is directed at me - interestingly enough, when I went to get a library card for UCD - the only thing I really needed from there after paying them full fees for 4 years of postgrad, I had to jump through mega hoops to get it, cos although I had to register with them as a student/pay fees - I didn't appear in their student lists.

Mick86

murphaph wrote:

He's a fraud. Was he even an accountant or perhaps an accounting technician? I'm not claiming every candidate for Taoiseach requires third level (though I believe it helps, depending on that qualification) but be honest and upfront about it, Bertie.

He's only been Taoiseach for 10 years. It's a bit late to be worrying about his qualifications (or lack of same) now.

Boston

Bertie would have gone to UCD before records where computerised yes?

brianthebard

ArthurDent wrote:

If this is directed at me - interestingly enough, when I went to get a library card for UCD - the only thing I really needed from there after paying them full fees for 4 years of postgrad, I had to jump through mega hoops to get it, cos although I had to register with them as a student/pay fees - I didn't appear in their student lists.

I see. So yeah I guess Ahern could have a degree from UCD in the same way as you have one. OP I would ring the taoiseach's office and try and find out exactly how he got whatever qualification he says he has, and then start asking questions.

Senator

Boston wrote:

Bertie would have gone to UCD before records where computerised yes?

I went to Trinity in the early 1970s but they have a record of me from pre-computerised records times. Every other educational institution I subsequently studied at (Masters & Doctorate) also has a record as do all my former places of employment. Similarly with medical and other state records. It's bad enough that people like myself (from a poor working-class council estate background originally) have to struggle to get into a place like Trinity in the first place and through it against considerable odds (financial, class etc.) and then watch politicians and actors and rock stars being handed degrees for nothing, but it's worse seeing politicians claiming to have been to university when they haven't.

gandalf

Boston wrote:

Bertie would have gone to UCD before records where computerised yes?

Looks like he went before they had written records as well

Sully

gandalf wrote:

Looks like he went before they had written records as well

Might have a nice sob story for his reasons for not having a qualifcation.. afterall, our Bertie doesnt do formalities.

Sully

Boston wrote:

Bertie would have gone to UCD before records where computerised yes?

Im sorry, but thats the lamest excuse for them having no records of Bertie. I would highly doubt they lost all references to his education.

InFront

I don't believe any third level qualification is really required for a career in politics, as everybody knows learning doesn't begin or end in a classroom. However, if I applied for a job and faked a qualification - even if that qualification was not strictly essential - I imagine my application would be rubbished immediately, and rightly so.

I don't think the Taoiseach should be kicked out over possibly misrepresenting his academic record, he should be kicked out over a definite, consistent failure to perform and deliver, and his untrustworthy nature.

A false qualification, if true, is just one symptom of that deceptive nature.

Sully

So let me get this right; Bertie is suggesting he has a qualifcation obtained from his attendance at both UCD and the LSE which have never been proven?

So, all in all, its possible (not saying its factual) that Bertie might not be telling the truth? Thus, further casting doubt on his trust worthiness?

And, FF supporters come back with a comment suggesting paper work was lost - strangely, in both places he received these qualifactions. If they dont have a record, wouldnt Bertie? So he could easily clarify this?

Boston

Sully wrote:

Im sorry, but thats the lamest excuse for them having no records of Bertie. I would highly doubt they lost all references to his education.

It would explain it, and is possible.

beanyb

I'm not saying Bertie isnt lying or defending him in any way... but the losing of records is quite possible. Just check out the UCD forum for information on the total shambles that is UCD admin!

Sully

Boston wrote:

It would explain it, and is possible.

It would but TWO places? Thats just very odd if thats the case!

InFront

Just a bit off topic, what happened that Ahern got demoted from Finance to Arts and Culture in 1994? That's a fairly substantial political drop, any particular reason for it that some of the old timers can remember:p ?

If this guy really was educated at the London School of Economics, one of the most significant academic institutions in the world in terms of business and law, wouldn't you think it would be mentioned on his official CV? Sounds fishy.

wow sierra

Who cares?????

I have a Degree from UCD which I obtained while also working full time and having a good social life - it actually wasn't that hard. Some people who are Graduates seem to think it gives them some sort of Status or something - give us a break.

In my working life I have worked with Managers who had third level education and others who had learned on the job and either system has worked fine.

I think Bertie Ahern has been a very capable politician as Minister for Labour, Finance and as Taoiseach. He is also down to earth interested in History and Sport which appeals to me. He seems to have used bad judgement in relation to his personal finances which is a negative - but not nearly as bad as the prospect of someone using bad judgement in relation to the Countrys finances. So I am still voting Fianna Fáil.

InFront

I don't think anyone is saying he's incapable at some political level, but you can't just say 'who care's' as if possibly faking a qualification is irrelevant. If one of your co-workers faked having the same degree as you, and you approached him about it, what would you say if he replied "who cares?"

patsyh

I personally think that it is important that all ministers should have both educational and practical experience in relation to their position especially the likes of Minister of Finance, Environment, Justice, Education

Heinrich

Surely he has his diplomas in nice frames hanging on the office wall for all toi see. And the banks must have records of his mortgage payments regardless of whether it was a cash purchase.

...etc.

Senator

The Taoiseach's Department has now been officially contacted for a reply and their answer will be posted here in due course.

Heinrich

Senator wrote:

The Taoiseach's Department has now been officially contacted for a reply and their answer will be posted here in due course.

Why not contact the LSE and UCD?

Seth Brundle

Sully wrote:

Im sorry, but thats the lamest excuse for them having no records of Bertie. I would highly doubt they lost all references to his education.

If anyone remembers the tragic plane accident that killed the writers, singers, producers for the Norwegian Eurosong entry from the 1970s and their families (as mentioned in Father Ted), apparently Berties lecturers, examiners, tutors, and their families were also on the same plane. Coincidentally, UCD admin staff were taking his file to Norway for nomination for a Nobel Prize in Efficient Accouonting which is why the file got lost.
Absolutely tragic circumstances!

delta_bravo

Heinrich wrote:

Why not contact the LSE and UCD?

I would say asking about another person educational record falls under the remit of the Data Protection Act so it would be witheld

Boston

kbannon wrote:

If anyone remembers the tragic plane accident that killed the writers, singers, producers for the Norwegian Eurosong entry from the 1970s and their families (as mentioned in Father Ted), apparently Berties lecturers, examiners, tutors, and their families were also on the same plane. Coincidentally, UCD admin staff were taking his file to Norway for nomination for a Nobel Prize in Efficient Accouonting which is why the file got lost.
Absolutely tragic circumstances!

You think lecturers, examiners and tutors remember every student or even know every student they teach, a student is a name on a piece of paper. You sir are reaching. Fact is, old paper based filing systems where notoriously poor and unreliable. And even if they where still kept, it would require someone to go through archives to find his records, which you know, may very well have been scrapped if he never completed a course their but only attended for a semester or two.

Senator

Heinrich wrote:

Why not contact the LSE and UCD?

They have also been contacted. I find it strange that some supporters of Bertie are coming up with all kinds of weird excuses and explanations for the non-keeping of records by supposedly-respected 3rd level educational institutions. The fact is that the 3 sports teams most associated with our beloved Taoiseach, Manchester United, Glasgow Celtic and Dublin GAA, can locate player records from the 1800s !

Seth Brundle

Boston wrote:

You think lecturers, examiners and tutors remember every student or even know every student they teach, a student is a name on a piece of paper. You sir are reaching. Fact is, old paper based filing systems where notoriously poor and unreliable. And even if they where still kept, it would require someone to go through archives to find his records, which you know, may very well have been scrapped if he never completed a course their but only attended for a semester or two.

I lectured for several years. I still have copies of all projects, assignments, exams, copies of many roll calls and all sent and received emails.
My father is a retired UCD lecturer and AFAIK still has lists of all students who attended his courses.

Boston

kbannon wrote:

I lectured for several years. I still have copies of all projects, assignments, exams, copies of many roll calls and all sent and received emails.
My father is a retired UCD lecturer and AFAIK still has lists of all students who attended his courses.

Bully for you, but I know for a fact not all lecturers keep that type of information, are you claiming they do?If so you're simply wrong. Roll Calls? never been subjected to an offical one yet. Exams scripts are definitely not kept 30 odd years.

Seth Brundle

I didn't say that they did - did I?
I merely pointed out that not all records are destroyed!

It is really a really really bad coincidence for Bertie that his entire university history has been lost, destroyed or forgotten!

Boston

kbannon wrote:

I didn't say that they did - did I?
I merely pointed out that not all records are destroyed!

It is really a really really bad coincidence for Bertie that his entire university history has been lost, destroyed or forgotten!

Come off it, either your comment was completely off-topic and pointless "look at me I keep exam scripts and rolls", or it was an attempt at a rebuff my comments, saying that you keep records so therefore some lecturer somewhere should have records going back decades.

Hard copy Records get destroyed in huge quantities, if that wasn't true, why do you yourself feel the need to personally keep copies of examination scripts and assignments? Because you know as well as I do that these are destroyed unless the lecturers keep them.

All you know is that he didn't get a qualification from UCD, there are plenty of people who dropped out of my course early on and are nothing but a single line in a database somewhere at this stage, I can't even remember the names of the ones i knew.

People,if ye want to get to the bottom of Berties UCD stint,then ask him for the specefics.
You can get your t.d to put down a Dáil question.

Locking this before it descends further into drivvel.