The Green Party are scary!

BBM77

Does anybody find that the Green Party are resorting to environmental scare tactics, or is it just me? Last night Trevor Sargent said on TV3 that it was fact that CO2 was causing climate change. I found this an inaccurate & scare mongering statement. How the climate works is not understood enough to be able to say that CO2 is to blame for the period of climate change we are in. There is a lot more evidence to say it is more to do with the sun’s natural cycles. Don’t get me wrong, I am against fossil fuels they are certainly pollutants and should be phased out but saying they are the cause of global warming is a bit much when you consider CO2 only make up .04% of the atmosphere. The Green’s want to bring in CO2 taxes and it could be to find that reducing CO2 is having no effect whatsoever, all at the public’s expenses of course.

He was also taking about the Green’s policy of reassessing the road-building program. Do they not realise what that would cost and the shock it would be to the construction industry, which makes up a large part of the countries economy and employment.

I do not know about the rest of the country, but Waterford’s Green candidate would put you of the Green Party for life. There is a problem with every piece of progress proposed for the city.

I always considered myself an environmentalist – but the Green Party, no thanks.

flogen

Resorting too? No, it's more like everyone is now paying attention to their case on the environment, one they've been using for a very long time.

I suppose Sergent's statement was based on the research which has shown that it is almost certainly humans (and their production of Co2) that is causing climate change - it's about as sure a thing as we're likely to get for the next few years and now even the USA are accepting that humans are at fault.

The road building programme is an interesting one - I don't think any party would allow them to keep it in the programme for Government though - there's nothing wrong with assessing the programmes to ensure we're getting a good deal at a decent speed (and to ensure that they're not impacting on the environment in any way like some believe will happen at the Hill of Tara etc.) but I wouldn't support any complete suspension of programmes and the Green party certainly wouldn't publicly either (I'd imagine, which is why they're being careful and promising a review etc.)

Chardee MacDennis

Ballybrickenman wrote:

saying they are the cause of global warming is a bit much when you consider CO2 only make up .04% of the atmosphere

dont know if i agree with your position here.

borg07

I agree they are likely to seriously damage the economy if their policies are implemented. I thought Sargent did badly on the TV3 show

Not only do they want to stop the roads programme, they want 20c added to the litre of petrol, to abolish the national treatment purchase fund, to abolish tax relief on pensions, a levy on banks (not that I like banks but) which will endanger the IFSC, plus they have stated in the Dail they want to increase corporation tax and therefore hurt jobs and investments.

FG voters should remember that by voting FG they are inviting the greens into government.

luapenak

borg07 wrote:

FG voters should remember that by voting FG they are inviting the greens into government.

But even if the greens were part of a coalition, how much pull do you actually think they would have?

brianthebard

borg07 wrote:

FG voters should remember that by voting FG they are inviting the greens into government.

How do you figure?

Lennoxschips

Does anybody find that the Green Party are resorting to environmental scare tactics, or is it just me? Last night Trevor Sargent said on TV3 that it was fact that CO2 was causing climate change. I found this an inaccurate & scare mongering statement. How the climate works is not understood enough to be able to say that CO2 is to blame for the period of climate change we are in. There is a lot more evidence to say it is more to do with the sun’s natural cycles.

Well, let's see this evidence then.

Because thousands of scientists don't agree with you, but you must know something they don't.

jhegarty

luapenak wrote:

But even if the greens were part of a coalition, how much pull do you actually think they would have?

not very much when third party is all they will be..... plus I can see a few independents filling the places.... far easier to deal with than the greens....


one thing for sure is that they won't get a PD style deal...

Múinteoir

borg07 wrote:

I agree they are likely to seriously damage the economy if their policies are implemented. I thought Sargent did badly on the TV3 show

Not only do they want to stop the roads programme, they want 20c added to the litre of petrol, to abolish the national treatment purchase fund, to abolish tax relief on pensions, a levy on banks (not that I like banks but) which will endanger the IFSC, plus they have stated in the Dail they want to increase corporation tax and therefore hurt jobs and investments.

FG voters should remember that by voting FG they are inviting the greens into government.

They are two lies in the above statement. Blue Peter badge to whoever picks them out.

Akrasia

Last night Trevor Sargent said on TV3 that it was fact that CO2 was causing climate change

That's because it is a fact that CO2 is the primary driver of climate change. As close to a fact as we can get about a complex ecological system.

I don't suppose you deny evolution too?

borg07

brianthebard wrote:

How do you figure?

Simple maths as FG & Lab will need them to make up the numbers, unless they go with PD or SF which is as likely as FG going in with FF!

ArthurDent

Muinteoir muinteoir, please sir can I have my badge for that old corpporation tax one please

http://www.greenparty.ie/en/news/latest_news/green_party_backs_all_island_corporation_tax_and_free_digital_tv_services

brianthebard

Do you have a crystal ball or something? You can't know how the "simple maths" is going to work out until we know who's been elected. Between now and the polling day there are plenty of things that can happen that will affect the vote.

borg07

brianthebard wrote:

Do you have a crystal ball or something? You can't know how the "simple maths" is going to work out until we know who's been elected. Between now and the polling day there are plenty of things that can happen that will affect the vote.

A look at any of the recent opinion polls clearly shows it will be virtually impossible for FG and Lab to make up their numbers on their own and on the balance of probability they will needs the Greens and hence my original comment about voting FG will mean Greens in Government is more than likely to be correct

BeatNikDub

Other parties are enjoying a smear campaign against the Greens.
Question them on any of their so called outrageous policies and you will find there to be quite a sensible answer.

jhegarty

BeatNikDub wrote:

Other parties are enjoying a smear campaign against the Greens.
Question them on any of their so called outrageous policies and you will find there to be quite a sensible answer.

but they do plan to stop the motorway program ?

BeatNikDub

To be honest, any road programmes that have happened over the last 10 years have been a shambles. I thin it would be fantastic to have it all reviewed and if honest changes can be made then do it.
Irelands road structure is the worst in Europe, we are an example are how NOT to do it.

I think their priority is public transport and if they can provide the country with a decent one then I think go for it, it is needed so so so badly. Our road system is probably beyond help anyway.

McSandwich

borg07 wrote:

they want 20c added to the litre of petrol.

Yes, as a replacement for current motor tax. The idea is that if you drive less or drive a fuel efficient vehicle, then you pay less tax.

Is that such a bad idea?

Apparently scientists now claiming that average temperature in Mars has gone up 0.5 degress in past 20 years, which is more than this planet. They have no idea how this happened yet, but clearly it shows that climate change can happen without industrialisation, CFCs, holes in ozone layers, overuse of fossil fuels, car emissions, breach of Kyoto Treaties etc. etc. That doesn't render the Green message invalid, but bet they don't point out those findings either.

McSandwich

Ballybrickenman wrote:

Does anybody find that the Green Party are resorting to environmental scare tactics, or is it just me? Last night Trevor Sargent said on TV3 that it was fact that CO2 was causing climate change. I found this an inaccurate & scare mongering statement. How the climate works is not understood enough to be able to say that CO2 is to blame for the period of climate change we are in. There is a lot more evidence to say it is more to do with the sun’s natural cycles. Don’t get me wrong, I am against fossil fuels they are certainly pollutants and should be phased out but saying they are the cause of global warming is a bit much when you consider CO2 only make up .04% of the atmosphere. The Green’s want to bring in CO2 taxes and it could be to find that reducing CO2 is having no effect whatsoever, all at the public’s expenses of course.

Read some of the links here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055087361

jhegarty

BeatNikDub wrote:

To be honest, any road programmes that have happened over the last 10 years have been a shambles. I thin it would be fantastic to have it all reviewed and if honest changes can be made then do it.
Irelands road structure is the worst in Europe, we are an example are how NOT to do it.

I think their priority is public transport and if they can provide the country with a decent one then I think go for it, it is needed so so so badly. Our road system is probably beyond help anyway.

that wasn't my question..... do the green party plan to stop the motorway program ?

McSandwich

Deleted User wrote:

Apparently scientists now claiming that average temperature in Mars has gone up 0.5 degress in past 20 years, which is more than this planet. They have no idea how this happened yet, but clearly it shows that climate change can happen without industrialisation, CFCs, holes in ozone layers, overuse of fossil fuels, car emissions, breach of Kyoto Treaties etc. etc. That doesn't render the Green message invalid, but bet they don't point out those findings either.

Have a read here: http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/climate-change/mg19426004.800-soybean-boom-spells-bad-news-for-climate.html

It explains the influence of the Solar activity on global warming

M&#250

M&#250 wrote: »

They are two lies in the above statement. Blue Peter badge to whoever picks them out.

Please elaborate.It's not acceptable to accuse a poster of lying here unless you have proof that they have intended to deliberately mislead.

This is a discussion forum and I'd ask you please if you disagree with a post that you say why and not just run in with a one line you are lying retort.
You've disagreed so could you come back now and go into the detail please.
Thank you.

borg07

McSandwich wrote:

Yes, as a replacement for current motor tax. The idea is that if you drive less or drive a fuel efficient vehicle, then you pay less tax.

Is that such a bad idea?

It may be fine for people in cities but not for those who live in the countryside and need cars, nor for those who have to commute to long distances, not to mention the transport industry, it will severely effect them and all of us by driving up the cost of goods.

Therefore it is a terrible idea

DarkJager

McSandwich wrote:

Yes, as a replacement for current motor tax. The idea is that if you drive less or drive a fuel efficient vehicle, then you pay less tax.

Is that such a bad idea?

I pay tax once every 3 months on my car. It costs me around 45 euro each time which is pretty alright. I do not want to be paying 20 euro road tax while having to fill my car up with nearly 60 euro of petrol each week because the tree huggers think it would be a good idea to cut emissions....

flogen

borg07 wrote:

A look at any of the recent opinion polls clearly shows it will be virtually impossible for FG and Lab to make up their numbers on their own and on the balance of probability they will needs the Greens and hence my original comment about voting FG will mean Greens in Government is more than likely to be correct

The Green Party are being called the potential kingmakers of the next Dáil - that's because they're the most likely party to hold the balance between FF and FG/Lab - that means that a vote for either party is all the same as far as the Green Party are concerned.

BeatNikDub

If this is what you are referring to then yes it sounds like they want it to end

Concerns about M3 motorway vindicated by new discovery - Cuffe
Issued: 01 May 2007

Statement by Ciaran Cuffe

Spokesperson on Justice, Equality & Law Reform, Local Government and Environment



– Work halted as 'major' prehistorical site discovered

The Green Party's long-standing concerns about the construction of the M3 Motorway through the Hill of Tara complex have been vindicated this evening by the discovery of a major prehistoric site, said Environment spokesperson Ciarán Cuffe TD.

Deputy Cuffe said: "As far back as March 2005 I stated that going ahead with the proposed route for the M3 would be an act of cultural and historic vandalism. I am relived that Environment Minister Dick Roche has finally been forced to halt work on the motorway.

"Only yesterday Martin Cullen was turning the sod for the M3 project, yet today work has been suspended. I am once again calling for all work to come to an end, in particular the massive floodlit Blundlestown interchange, and for the upgrading of the existing N3 to take place instead.

"The Green Party in government will ensure that the Dublin-Navan rail line is reinstated without delay. Improving public transport will take traffic off the roads and get commuters to work far more quickly," Deputy Cuffe concluded.


Im not sure if you mean a motorway programme in general though.

BeatNikDub

borg07 wrote:

It may be fine for people in cities but not for those who live in the countryside and need cars, nor for those who have to commute to long distances, not to mention the transport industry, it will severely effect them and all of us by driving up the cost of goods.

Therefore it is a terrible idea

But they want to provide with decent public transport.
They are aware of people in the countryside who need cars.

I need my car to get to work, there is no public transport. But if could walk to the end of my road and get a regaular bus or train then no problem!

brianthebard

jhegarty wrote:

that wasn't my question..... do the green party plan to stop the motorway program ?

Its been said several times on different threads that they don't plan to stop any present projects.

luckat

The Green Party don't intend to stop the roads programme, and have repeatedly said this.

The question of the M3 being rammed through the internationally important archaeological site at Tara is another matter. I think they want it *rerouted* away from Tara.

The party's leaders say that what they want to do is put the emphasis on public transport, while continuing to build good infrastructure.

Zaph

DarkJager wrote:

I pay tax once every 3 months on my car. It costs me around 45 euro each time which is pretty alright. I do not want to be paying 20 euro road tax while having to fill my car up with nearly 60 euro of petrol each week because the tree huggers think it would be a good idea to cut emissions....

Assuming €1.15 a litre, €60 is about 52 litres, which @ 20c a litre is about €10.40, not €20. That said, I think 20c a litre is be too much, 10c a litre might be more reasonable, but I do think it's a good idea. The more you drive the more tax you pay and there's no way for the thousands of motor tax dodgers to get away with not paying, which increases the overall tax take. Either Australia or New Zealand already have this system in place and I believe it works very well.

DarkJager

Well petrol is already at 1.15 so another 20 cent onto that makes it 1.35 a litre. So a 40 litre tank of petrol (average amount for a week) is going to cost me 54 euro compared to 46 euro at the moment.

The greens will not be getting my vote either way. They are more concerned with saving the planet than dealing with the issues that really affect people.

Akrasia

Deleted User wrote:

Apparently scientists now claiming that average temperature in Mars has gone up 0.5 degress in past 20 years, which is more than this planet. They have no idea how this happened yet, but clearly it shows that climate change can happen without industrialisation, CFCs, holes in ozone layers, overuse of fossil fuels, car emissions, breach of Kyoto Treaties etc. etc. That doesn't render the Green message invalid, but bet they don't point out those findings either.

Do you have a link?
We've been subjected to a lot of claims from 'scientists/lobbiests' over the years.

marie_85

DarkJager wrote:

The greens will not be getting my vote either way. They are more concerned with saving the planet than dealing with the issues that really affect people.

Come back to me in twenty years time when climate change has become a reality that nobody can ignore and say that again! The current half measures being taken by the present government are not enough, and it is my generation that is going to have to pay the price for their inefficiency.

And have you actually looked at their manifesto? It's not solely concerned with climate change. In fact, the majority is devoted to issues like health, energy, transport, education, in short all the issues that affect the Irish people. It's a misinformed opinion that states that all the Greens care about is the environment.

McSandwich

borg07 wrote:

It may be fine for people in cities but not for those who live in the countryside and need cars, nor for those who have to commute to long distances, not to mention the transport industry, it will severely effect them and all of us by driving up the cost of goods.

Therefore it is a terrible idea

If you look at the fuel consumption figures for any car, you will see that urban driving uses the most fuel. My car will do about 400Km on a full tank city driving but nearly double that for long journeys.

The transport industry is a different matter, given that they pay commercial rates for vrt and tax, I expect exemptions will apply.

dregin

My local greens representative is pushing for the re-opening of the Cavan/Monaghan train routes. This is a much needed service that we've done without for far too long. He'll be getting my number one.

The_Minister

brianthebard wrote:

Its been said several times on different threads that they don't plan to stop any present projects.

They wil not commit to bringing in moterways that have not had the contracts signed.
When asked if he would build the road from Dublin-Galway, he replied "we'll get you there by train"

DarkJager

Well I'm not worried at all about climate change to be honest so have no love for any policies that are designed to combat it, especially when they involve my wallet getting hit... Not to sound like some enviroment poisoning snob, but I really couldn't care less about it.

The Greens promises for healthcare, transport and education are mediocre at best and definitely not something they should be priding themselves on.

McSandwich

DarkJager wrote:

Well I'm not worried at all about climate change to be honest so have no love for any policies that are designed to combat it, especially when they involve my wallet getting hit... Not to sound like some enviroment poisoning snob, but I really couldn't care less about it.

You should save that quote for your grand children

DarkJager

I won't be around but I'll be sure to leave it engraved somewhere for them!

McSandwich

The_Minister wrote:

They wil not commit to bringing in moterways that have not had the contracts signed.
When asked if he would build the road from Dublin-Galway, he replied "we'll get you there by train"

World oil supplies aren't going to last forever (production has already peaked) and prices are already rising. All that expensive motorway might not be very useful in years to come...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3777413.stm

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/2300

http://www.worldoil.com/Magazine/MAGAZINE_DETAIL.asp?ART_ID=3163&MONTH_YEAR=Apr-2007

http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

Do you have a link?
We've been subjected to a lot of claims from 'scientists/lobbiests' over the years.

It was carried on some paper over the weekend.

Here's an old report from National Geographic. I have no idea if whats said is true, just that's its a change from the 'the sky is falling in and it's all our fault but we can change the world' angle...

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html

karen3212

Ballybrickenman wrote:

Does anybody find that the Green Party are resorting to environmental scare tactics, or is it just me? Last night Trevor Sargent said on TV3 that it was fact that CO2 was causing climate change. I found this an inaccurate & scare mongering statement. How the climate works is not understood enough to be able to say that CO2 is to blame for the period of climate change we are in.

Yeah, I've heard scientists say that they don't have 100% proof that smoking causes lung cancer either, but........ really generally speaking it does.

So they are as sure as they can be,
If you were standing in the middle of the road, and if 100 roadwatchers told you that there was a 95% chance there was a huge truck heading straight for you, would you want to move off the road. Now if they asked you for 100000 euro that could be paid over 20 years and said they could help you get off the road, would you give it to them, even if there was one there telling you that the others were lying?
That is the question I ask myself, and yes I would give them the 100000 to get me off the road.

Lennoxschips

They are more concerned with saving the planet than dealing with the issues that really affect people.

Heh. I assume you live on this planet, so that issue affects you too.

But besides that, they want better transport, better educations, hospitals etc.

Vegeta

Not a fan of the greens policies either.

Its a pitty because they seem like a party who would actually get something done.

BBM77

Call_me_al wrote:

dont know if i agree with your position here.

This is only a parts per million graph, in percentage terms CO2 is .04% of the total atmosphere which is in a lot of scientists view is far to small to cause a global temperature increase and I for one think they are right.

Akrasia

The_Minister wrote:

They wil not commit to bringing in moterways that have not had the contracts signed.
When asked if he would build the road from Dublin-Galway, he replied "we'll get you there by train"

There already is a road from Dublin to Galway. If there was a better public transport system then it wouldn't be so congested and we might not need such a radical upgrade

BBM77

Lennoxschips wrote:

Well, let's see this evidence then.

Because thousands of scientists don't agree with you, but you must know something they don't.

To list just two:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/07/18/wsun18.xml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/358953.stm


You know the CO2 causing global warming theory is exactly that, only a theory, it could be wrong. As I said, not enough is know about the workings of the earth’s climate to be able to say for certain what is causing global temperature increase, no scientist would be arrogant enough to say that. Quoting it as fact on a TV debate is guided by self-interest, not an honest explanation of a serious topic.

The Green Party is taking the CO2 theory as fact and wants to legislate and impose taxes for that reason should they be part a future government. I believe that it is wrong for a political party to be stating a theory as fact and expect the public to then pay extra taxes based on that theory.

McSandwich

Ballybrickenman wrote:

This is only a parts per million graph, in percentage terms CO2 is .04% of the total atmosphere which is in a lot of scientists view is far to small to cause a global temperature increase and I for one think they are right.

Based on what?

http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/climate-change/channel/earth/climate-change/mg19425993.000-editorial-nowhere-to-turn-for-climate-change-deniers.html

[edit]

If you plotted % instead of ppm, it would still look the same, it's just a different scale!

[/edit]

BBM77

Akrasia wrote:

That's because it is a fact that CO2 is the primary driver of climate change. As close to a fact as we can get about a complex ecological system.

I don't suppose you deny evolution too?

Evolution is a proven fact.

CO2 as the primary driver of climate change is far from a proven fact. I do not understand why people are saying it is.

Akrasia

Ballybrickenman wrote:

This is only a parts per million graph, in percentage terms CO2 is .04% of the total atmosphere which is in a lot of scientists view is far to small to cause a global temperature increase and I for one think they are right.

A lot of scientists? Who?

If you think small changes to biochemistry can't have a big effect, off you go and take a few ecstasy tablets. a few MG in about 5 litres of blood can have drastic effects.

The Biosphere is a similar complex system, small changes can have a big effect. A small amount of CFC pollution had an effect (a decline of 4% a year) on the Ozone Layer which had drastic effects on ground radiation