How far is too far to be from a toddler?

iguana

I was in a discussion with some people about the Madeline McCann abduction which is on the news at the moment. Most of the discussion was about what level of responsibility lies with the parents. Personally while I think that laying blame won't help anybody right now, I can't understand how anybody could feel it was acceptable to leave a three year old and a pair of two years olds alone in order to go for a meal.

I understand that they were asleep, and that the parents were in sight of their apartment but I'd be reluctant to go more than 20ft into the garden if there were toddlers in my care asleep in the house. And I wouldn't do that without having all the doors open so I could here them. Some people were of the opinion that as I don't have kids I don't know what I'm talking about, but I really can't see how anyone could leave children that age out of hearing range.

daiixi

My parents did the same sort of thing with us kids when we were young as have countless other parents and nothing bad has happened. Plus it's not like they went out for hours on end and didn't check up on the children. The McCanns were, apparently, able to see the front door of their apartment from where they were dining and kept checking on the children half-hourly or hourly.
Anyway, let's think back to the disappearance of Jo-Benett Ramsey (just because I can think of this case of the top of my head). She was sleeping in the family home with the family present yet she was still murdered without the family being aware of it - and the parents have been cleared of her murder.

ambman

i think if they had been normal jo-soaps and not doctors they would have been blamed for leaving the kids alone while they went on the piss.
as a father of two kids i would never left the kids on their own.
if one of them stared choking in their sleep how were they suppose to know.
i know we kept using monitors till they were 3 and they were only upstairs.
to leave 3 kids alone is criminal. and is it just me or do the parents not seem to upset about the whole ordeal. i know if was me i would be like a raging bull to try and find her.

after saying my piece lets hope to god they find her safe and sound

iguana

daiixi wrote:

My parents did the same sort of thing with us kids when we were young as have countless other parents and nothing bad has happened.

When you were three and two? It's one thing when a kid is about 9 and has an understanding of actions and consequences, but to leave three toddlers alone where you can't hear them. Nevermind being kidnapped, what if one of them woke up screaming from a nightmare to find no-one comes to sooth them and gets hysterical?

simu

I wouldn't do it myself and I don't get why those parents did. Did they let their guard down on holiday?

Well, I hope they find their daughter safe and sound regardless.

littlebug

ambman wrote:

and is it just me or do the parents not seem to upset about the whole ordeal.

Funny how people perceive things differently. They seem very upset to me. They look like they're falling to pieces.
Personally I wouldn't leave my two alone. Even if I'm in the garden when they're asleep I leave the door open so I can hear them if they cry.
I've never used hotel babysitting or listening services either. Too many "what ifs" to take the risk. There again some of my friends think I'm overly cautious and they happily leave their baby in a hotel room, just going back check every hour. I wouldn't feel comfortable with that.

This case truly upsets me though and I can't even begin to imagine what they must be going through. Here's hoping for a positive outcome.

ArthurDent

littlebug wrote:

Personally I wouldn't leave my two alone. Even if I'm in the garden when they're asleep I leave the door open so I can hear them if they cry.
I've never used hotel babysitting or listening services either. Too many "what if's" to take the risk. There again some of my friends think I'm overly cautious and they happily leave their baby in a hotel room, just going back check every hour. I wouldn't feel comfortable with that.

This case truly upsets me though and I can't even begin to imagine what they must be going through. Here's hoping for a positive outcome.

feel exactly the same way - no way I'd do that either

MyBaby

Our son is 21months old and we wouldnt leave him on his own in the house or anything and just pop out. Its like going to your local pub around the corner and going back to your house every half hour to check on the child. You wouldn't do it at home, so why be different when on holidays.

We are actually going to Portugal next Saturday and he will not be out of our site.

Last september we went to Turkey. He was one at the time and we never left him on his own. If we wanted a meal we brought him with us and then if we wanted a few drinks we would go to a quiet bar and he could fall asleep in his pram and he was there with us all the time. His sleep pattern was a bit messed up becuase he slept half the day because the heat wore him out.

Jotter

my dh blames the parents to an extent but he leaves our ds in car if hes going to pay for petrol sometimes and this to me iirresponsible bec what if someone ran into our car? It mightnt be practical to take him with me but Ill do it bec if anything happened id never forgive myself and would be left with the forever of 'what if' in my mind. But my dh and plenty others think im being over protective about the issue as its 'only for a minute'.

Unfortunately for these parents thats exactly what theyre facing, even if/when the child comes back safe theyll never forgive themselves for leaving them alone and I wouldnt wish what theyre going through on anyone, I think it was an irresponsible thing to do but My God they are paying the price now and my heart goes out to them. It just goes to show you never know whos watching, its a scary thought but its a scary world and I just hope they find this poor little girl safe and catch the pathethic coward that took her.

silverharp

As far as I know they were in a Mark Warner complex, normally this means they have the option of a listening in service while the parents have their evening meal. we were at one once and it had a compound feel to it so naturally you would feel safe. I wouldn't apportion blame but personally just would not be comfortable if somebody was not in the room with them as I'd end up trying to rush dinner so wouldn't enjoy it in any case

Carrigart Exile

I understand that they were asleep, and that the parents were in sight of their apartment but I'd be reluctant to go more than 20ft into the garden if there were toddlers in my care asleep in the house. And I wouldn't do that without having all the doors open so I could here them. Some people were of the opinion that as I don't have kids I don't know what I'm talking about, but I really can't see how anyone could leave children that age out of hearing range.[/QUOTE]

My daughter is 5 and whilst I am praying like mad for the wee girls return safe and sound and find myself so angry with the parents. From what I have read they were 400 yards away; the complex had a pool for goodness sake. In my daughters 5 years she has been very lucky to be abroad 6 times and never ever would I leave her from my sight awake or asleep

EcoGirl

Likewise as a parent I think young children should never be left alone. Yes it's a hassle and an inconvenience, but if you want easy and convenient get a goldfish not a child.

I think it was reasonable of them not to consider the risk of abduction, but there's so many other things that could happen - as other posters have said; the risk of choking, or waking with a nightmare and nobody there - the psychological torture of that! Never mind that 3 year olds are possibly the most dangerous beings around - with the physical capability to do anything but without any sense.

Having said all that, their decision certainly doesn't deserve this outcome, and the little girl certainly doesn't deserve this ... so all my thoughts and prayers are for a happy outcome.

looksee

Just once, and only once, we left our two young children asleep in bed while we were at a party in a neighbour's garden, very close by. I went back to check on them and discovered one had been sick all over her bed - and I think it was the only time it ever happened with her - and the other was standing in his cot howling. I still go cold thinking about it and it was over 30 years ago. I cannot remember now why I did it on that one occasion, and I never did it again.

dame

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1752277.ece
from yesterday's Sunday Times.

In this report it says that;

The children could have been left in a free crèche in the complex. A babysitting service was also available for between €12 (£8) and €15 an hour.

But the McCanns were eating only about 150ft from their apartment. It is thought they felt they were close enough to watch over their children.

Hotel sources said the apartment’s french doors – which faced the restaurant where the McCanns were eating – were unlocked by the couple. Their line of view was, however, obscured by bougainvillea and palm trees.

At 9.30pm Gerry McCann checked his children and they were sound asleep, with Madeleine lying with her comfort blanket. Thirty minutes later his wife returned and found Madeleine gone and the shutter of the rear window open.


There is no way I would ever leave small children alone like that. The parents may have been nearby but they couldn't see or hear them. Not paying for a babysitter when there was one available was silly, they wouldn't do this at home surely so why do it on holiday? They were holidaying with other couples with children. Did those couples have babysitters? Could they have left all the kids in one of their apartments and shared a babysitter even? There is just so much that could go wrong when young children are left alone.

Please God let her be found and safe very soon.

daiixi

iguana wrote:

When you were three and two? It's one thing when a kid is about 9 and has an understanding of actions and consequences, but to leave three toddlers alone where you can't hear them. Nevermind being kidnapped, what if one of them woke up screaming from a nightmare to find no-one comes to sooth them and gets hysterical?

Yes, when we were very young. As for the waking up screaming from a nightmare, who knows - my parents aren't exactly on hand for me to interregate them. But to be perfectly honest with you I think parents wrap their kids up in cotton wool way too much these days. Let the kid cry and learn that there won't always be someone on hand to soothe the bad things away.

Jotter

daiixi wrote:

Let the kid cry and learn that there won't always be someone on hand to soothe the bad things away.

let a toddler cry, on their own, in the dark, in a strange place, in a strange country. I sincerely hope you are saying this just to stir things up and that you are not a parent. If you are a parent then I would seriously suggest reevaluating your parenting skills.
Its one thing to let an older kid cry so they dont become whingers or to let a kid cry when you are in the house and know they are ok but infants/toddlers need security and should ALWAYS have someone on hand to soothe the bad things away. Thats what parents do, its their job, and to suggest otherwise implys to me that you are not an emotionally adjusted adult and have issues of your own that you should not impart upon your children.

daiixi

1. Madeleine was not on her own;
2. she'd been there for almost a week;
3. who said there were no lights on; and
4. wtf does it matter what country she was in? she was locked in a room.

For the record no, I am not a parent and my parents wouldn't come running to me whenever I wimpered and I've grown up just fine. It's a parents job to raise a well adjusted person, not a cry baby.

kelle

It makes my blood run cold when I recall what could have happened my daughter in Lanzarote when she was 2. We stayed in a complex with loads of other families so the place was full of children. My daughter was in the paddling pool, when I got into conversation with another mother at the edge of the pool. I then looked in the pool, she wasn't there, I started calling her, she wasn't answering. I screamed out her name,nobody around had seen her (all watching their own). Then I spotted her through trees. She had wandered out of the pool, walked up a hill, and turned left into a tree-lined area. God only knows what could have happened had I not noticed her for another few seconds. Those 20 seconds I couldn't find her were the longest of my life.
I can only imagine what those poor parents are going through. I mean, I'm frantically checking Sky news every few minutes to see if there's an update and I'm not her parent.
I wouldn't have left my children alone in an apartment like they did, but it seems they could see the apartment from where they were eating out.
I pray to God this little girl is found safe and well and is returned to her parents very soon.

dixiefly

I think that we all have made an incorrect call on something at some time or another. I dont think myself or my wife would have done what they did but niot being in that environment I cannot be certain. It could be a done thing - I just dont know. However leaving three kids just so young does not seem at all right loooking at it in retrospect.
Like a previous poster I have found myself regularly checking for news in the hope that she will be found.

1. Madeleine was not on her own;

No, she was with her two year old siblings. They came in really useful to stop her from being abducted didn't they?

2. she'd been there for almost a week;

So? You shouldn't even leave kids alone in their own house.

4. wtf does it matter what country she was in? she was locked in a room.

Well, if they'd been at home they would at least have some idea of who the people around them were. Still not safe, but better than being surrounded by complete strangers. And it has been reported the doors weren't locked. So they left their very young children alone in a foreign country with the doors unlocked. A+ for parenting skills there.

For the record no, I am not a parent and my parents wouldn't come running to me whenever I wimpered and I've grown up just fine. It's a parents job to raise a well adjusted person, not a cry baby.

Are you actually serious? You do not leave toddlers alone for any length of time. My cousin drowned 10 years ago when her mother left her for 2 minutes to answer the phone. This child was abducted and it would not have happened if the parents hadn't left her. Simple as that. If they had bothered to hire a babysitter or take the kids with them, or shock horror, adjusted their plans and not eaten outside the apartment, this would never have happened. Yes it was bad luck that someone was lurking around but they were irresponsible.

Aside from the risk of abduction, the kids could have choked on something, if there was a connecting bathroom they could have filled the bath and drowned, they could have walked out of the unlocked doors and drowned in a pool, got run over, scaulded themselves from a tap/shower, electrocuted themselves, anything. Your parents may have been neglectful but please don't try and insinuate that leaving young children alone is in any way normal. Not only is it dangerous, but it's cruel to leave them alone and crying. Parents are supposed to soothe them, not ignore and neglect them. My parents didn't mollycoddle us at all and left us alone sometimes but I was at least 9 or 10 - old enough to know what to do in an emergency and not to do anything stupid. You say you've grown up fine, well you've grown up with an extremely warped attitude to parenting and children. Thinking that soothing a crying baby is 'spoiling' them is far from normal and well adjusted, IMO. There is a happy medium between obsessing over your children and neglecting them.

nesf

daiixi wrote:

But to be perfectly honest with you I think parents wrap their kids up in cotton wool way too much these days.

I agree with you but keeping a toddler supervised isn't wrapping a kid up in cotton wool tbh.

loyatemu

the risk of a child being abducted by a stranger is practically nil - these cases make the news because they are so rare.

the real risk is a child getting out of bed and hurting themselves in some way (particularly in a strange environment away from home) or getting sick. I wouldn't have left my kids in those circumstances, but the parents could never have expected something like this to happen.

dubsgirl

Point made on the radio this morning which I thought was so true. If this had been an unmarried mother away on holiday and leaving the children in the apartment the headlines would be a lot different! It would be wreckless behaviour... The parents being a professional medical couple is putting a whole different slant to the reports.

IMO either way is wreckless but the McCanns know that now and I am just heartbroken for them. Nobody deserves to learn a lesson like that..

HashSlinging

ambman wrote:

i think if they had been normal jo-soaps and not doctors they would have been blamed for leaving the kids alone while they went on the piss.
as a father of two kids i would never left the kids on their own.
if one of them stared choking in their sleep how were they suppose to know.
i know we kept using monitors till they were 3 and they were only upstairs.
to leave 3 kids alone is criminal. and is it just me or do the parents not seem to upset about the whole ordeal. i know if was me i would be like a raging bull to try and find her.

after saying my piece lets hope to god they find her safe and sound

Same here, as a father of two I would be totally distraught looking for her, I'd be certifiable, I know when we have been away on holidays, we never ever leave ours unattended, we always take an upper level apartment and even when having dinner in the apartment we go into the rooms to check all the time.

I think there is nothing strange in the reactions of these two parents I guess they are being coached on how to handle the media, as the sickos will be playing on their reactions and also how much coverage they get. I fear the worst for the little girl, very little hope at this stage.

Raytown Rocks

As a parent that has been away many many times, we have never ever left our children in the apartment alone, for all the reasons previously stated by other people in this thread.
Whenever we went out we brought the 2 of them in their buggies with us, wether that be for a meal or if we were going for a drink ( yes we brought them to Bars)but usually quieter ones that we could sit outside with them.

That said, No one deserves to go through what that family are going through, and what their daughter is going through.
I pray to God they find her soon, alive and well.

daiixi

Barbara Nice Shop wrote:

No, she was with her two year old siblings. They came in really useful to stop her from being abducted didn't they?

If you read the whole thread you'd realise that this has more to do with waking up after a nightmare than being abducted.

So? You shouldn't even leave kids alone in their own house.

I never said you *should*. I said that lots of people do and nothing bad happens.

Well, if they'd been at home they would at least have some idea of who the people around them were. Still not safe, but better than being surrounded by complete strangers. And it has been reported the doors weren't locked. So they left their very young children alone in a foreign country with the doors unlocked. A+ for parenting skills there.

Which again brings me back to Jo-Bennet Ramsey who was in her bedroom with her brother and parents all in the house yet was still abducted and found murdered hours later in the basement of the house. If someone wants to get to your child and the child is not completely locked up/restrained then they will.

It has been reported that the doors were locked and that they weren't locked. I'm not going to argue on that point because journalism often gets such points wrong.

Are you actually serious? You do not leave toddlers alone for any length of time. My cousin drowned 10 years ago when her mother left her for 2 minutes to answer the phone.

Well that was stupid wasn't it.

This child was abducted and it would not have happened if the parents hadn't left her. Simple as that. If they had bothered to hire a babysitter or take the kids with them, or shock horror, adjusted their plans and not eaten outside the apartment, this would never have happened. Yes it was bad luck that someone was lurking around but they were irresponsible.

Again I reiterate that abductions can and do happen when parents are around. See above.

Aside from the risk of abduction, the kids could have choked on something, if there was a connecting bathroom they could have filled the bath and drowned, they could have walked out of the unlocked doors and drowned in a pool, got run over, scaulded themselves from a tap/shower, electrocuted themselves, anything.

Yes and children left in their room by themselves can and do that also.

Your parents may have been neglectful but please don't try and insinuate that leaving young children alone is in any way normal. Not only is it dangerous, but it's cruel to leave them alone and crying. Parents are supposed to soothe them, not ignore and neglect them.

Yet it is. Constantly parents leave children alone and it's only on the rare occassions that something bad happens that it is highlighted in the media so please don't assume that all parents are like you. I don't really understand how it is cruel to leave a child cry in certain circumstances. I did not say all circumstances however if you want to believe that I did then so be it. I do not and will not believe that constant attention is a good thing.

My parents didn't mollycoddle us at all and left us alone sometimes but I was at least 9 or 10 - old enough to know what to do in an emergency and not to do anything stupid. You say you've grown up fine, well you've grown up with an extremely warped attitude to parenting and children. Thinking that soothing a crying baby is 'spoiling' them is far from normal and well adjusted, IMO. There is a happy medium between obsessing over your children and neglecting them.

Yes because at 9 or 10 you would have been able to adequately defend yourself from an abductor. Just like grown women and men are adequately able to defend themselves when attacked. The world is a dangerous place for everyone in it. I've never said once that what the McCann's did was right I simply said that a lot of people have done the same sort of thing with nothing bad ever happening.

Davidth88

This is an interesting debate , that's for sure.

The poor people , the first thing we should all hope and pray is that this has a happy ending .

I must admit if I was going to do such a thing I would at least use a baby monitor , that way if they wake screaming , you can be there in 1 min . Most of them would have range enough I would have thought .

If you read the whole thread you'd realise that this has more to do with waking up after a nightmare than being abducted.

Whatever the reason, it is not acceptable to leave small children alone.

I never said you *should*. I said that lots of people do and nothing bad happens.

I know that but how would you feel if something DID happen? It's not worth the risk, as these parents and their poor little girl have now found out. It's fine to take the 'ah sure it'll be grand' attitude about leaving your house unlocked while you go out or turning up late to the airport, but such a lax attitude is not acceptable with children's lives. Nobody can be a perfect parent, things happen, but PLANNING to leave your kids alone, when there are plenty of other options, is irresponsible.

Which again brings me back to Jo-Bennet Ramsey who was in her bedroom with her brother and parents all in the house yet was still abducted and found murdered hours later in the basement of the house. If someone wants to get to your child and the child is not completely locked up/restrained then they will.

Have you a clue what you're talking about? Are you aware that everyone thinks the parent(s) did it? There is practically zero chance that it was an intruder. I'm sure children have been abducted from under their parents' noses but why give a pedophile the perfect opportunity?

Well that was stupid wasn't it.

I'm sure you'll take that attitude with your own children should they have the awful luck of having you as a parent. 'Oh, they've just drowned in the pool while I was out shopping in Tescos for an hour? Oh well sure, these things happen. I'll have another one.'

Again I reiterate that abductions can and do happen when parents are around. See above.

Yes, but IT'S LESS LIKELY. Parents are responsible for doing their best to protect their kids. Yes, unfortunate things happen but they have a much greater chance of happening when the parent is too self absorbed to bother looking after their kids properly. You seem incapable of grasping this simple fact.

Yet it is. Constantly parents leave children alone and it's only on the rare occassions that something bad happens that it is highlighted in the media so please don't assume that all parents are like you. I don't really understand how it is cruel to leave a child cry in certain circumstances. I did not say all circumstances however if you want to believe that I did then so be it. I do not and will not believe that constant attention is a good thing.

As I said, you don't play Russian roulette with children's lives. If you want to take a chance with crossing a busy road because most people don't get run over, then fine, but it's not acceptable to think like that with kids. Also, the 'leaving them to cry thing' is a totally different point to the one everyone else is making. Mothers know their babies' cry - if the kid is whining for no good reason, the mother is sure everything is OK and is in the same room/nearby, then not a big deal. This is in no way, shape or form the same as leaving kids alone while you go out. They could be sick, terrified, howling and no-one would hear them. That is chilling and heartbreaking to me and most people who aren't emotionally barren. If you don't think there's a middle ground between spoiling kids and giving in to their whims and leaving them to howl in an empty house, you've got a problem.

Yes because at 9 or 10 you would have been able to adequately defend yourself from an abductor. Just like grown women and men are adequately able to defend themselves when attacked. The world is a dangerous place for everyone in it. I've never said once that what the McCann's did was right I simply said that a lot of people have done the same sort of thing with nothing bad ever happening.

If you can't see the difference between a child of 10 (in last year of primary school, perfectly developed verbal and reading skills, common sense) and a toddler of 3 there's not much point in explaining anything. I'm mainly talking about accidents happening. I am aware the risk of abduction is extremely low. A 9 or 10 year old isn't going to stick their fingers in sockets, drown themselves in the bath, etc. And if something DID happen they or their siblings (my parents left us all together) would be able to phone the parents/police/hotel staff and raise the alarm. A 9 or 10 year old is old enough to understand where their parents have gone, is able to reach them if necessary, and that they haven't been abandoned. To be honest, a lot of parents wouldn't even leave children of that age. My mum's friend has a childminder for her 12 and 13 year olds which I find over the top. But leaving toddlers and babies alone just isn't acceptable. You need a license for a dog but any moron can be a parent. :rolleyes:

daiixi

Barbara Nice Shop wrote:

Whatever the reason, it is not acceptable to leave small children alone.

BUT PEOPLE DO. That was my point. Stop trying to read between lines which do not exist.

I know that but how would you feel if something DID happen? It's not worth the risk, as these parents and their poor little girl have now found out. It's fine to take the 'ah sure it'll be grand' attitude about leaving your house unlocked while you go out or turning up late to the airport, but such a lax attitude is not acceptable with children's lives. Nobody can be a perfect parent, things happen, but PLANNING to leave your kids alone, when there are plenty of other options, is irresponsible.

I never said it wasn't. Again, stop trying to read between lines which do not exist.

Have you a clue what you're talking about? Are you aware that everyone thinks the parent(s) did it? There is practically zero chance that it was an intruder. I'm sure children have been abducted from under their parents' noses but why give a pedophile the perfect opportunity?

Are you aware that the parents have been cleared of the murder by the police? No, didn't think so.

I'm sure you'll take that attitude with your own children should they have the awful luck of having you as a parent. 'Oh, they've just drowned in the pool while I was out shopping in Tescos for an hour? Oh well sure, these things happen. I'll have another one.'

Growing up in Australia I'd never leave my children alone near water for a moment.

Yes, but IT'S LESS LIKELY. Parents are responsible for doing their best to protect their kids. Yes, unfortunate things happen but they have a much greater chance of happening when the parent is too self absorbed to bother looking after their kids properly. You seem incapable of grasping this simple fact.

When you grasp the fact that it's extremely unlikely for children to be abducted in the first place. Again you seem to be reading between lines that do not exist. When did I say that I didn't grasp that fact? Oh that's right, never.

As I said, you don't play Russian roulette with children's lives. If you want to take a chance with crossing a busy road because most people don't get run over, then fine, but it's not acceptable to think like that with kids.

Living every day is playing Russian roulette with your life.

Also, the 'leaving them to cry thing' is a totally different point to the one everyone else is making. Mothers know their babies' cry - if the kid is whining for no good reason, the mother is sure everything is OK and is in the same room/nearby, then not a big deal. This is in no way, shape or form the same as leaving kids alone while you go out. They could be sick, terrified, howling and no-one would hear them. That is chilling and heartbreaking to me and most people who aren't emotionally barren. If you don't think there's a middle ground between spoiling kids and giving in to their whims and leaving them to howl in an empty house, you've got a problem.

Yet again you are reading between lines which do not exist. What part of what I wrote said anything other than that there are times when children should be left to cry and when they shouldn't. I am not attacking you personally, perhaps you should return the favour.

If you can't see the difference between a child of 10 (in last year of primary school, perfectly developed verbal and reading skills, common sense) and a toddler of 3 there's not much point in explaining anything. I'm mainly talking about accidents happening. I am aware the risk of abduction is extremely low. A 9 or 10 year old isn't going to stick their fingers in sockets, drown themselves in the bath, etc. And if something DID happen they or their siblings (my parents left us all together) would be able to phone the parents/police/hotel staff and raise the alarm. A 9 or 10 year old is old enough to understand where their parents have gone, is able to reach them if necessary, and that they haven't been abandoned. To be honest, a lot of parents wouldn't even leave children of that age. My mum's friend has a childminder for her 12 and 13 year olds which I find over the top. But leaving toddlers and babies alone just isn't acceptable. You need a license for a dog but any moron can be a parent. :rolleyes:

Again with the personal attack. Again taking everything I said the wrong way. There is a difference between a 3 year old and a ten year old just as there's a difference between a 10 year old and a 30 year old yet all can and do get attacked and abducted. If you can't understand that then :rolleyes: as you so eliquently put it.

If you want to go on personal opinions then you'll probably be happy to note that I would fully support licensing for parents. However the McCanns, your aunt and plenty of other parents would be granted licenses only to **** up over one small little thing.

./edit btw reply what you will, I'm not reading this thread anymore.

kelle

I remember a similar event that happened in a holiday caravan site in the UK in the Summer of 1990. A 7-year-old girl was taken out of her bed which was next to an open window. There were appeals from her parents for days, then she was thankfully found a week later alive and well. I can't find a url link to support this, but it happened before www days. Obviously, her parents appealed for privacy following this.
I just hope Madeline's story ends on a similar note.

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

daiixi wrote:

Let the kid cry and learn that there won't always be someone on hand to soothe the bad things away.

what an evil and disgusting thing to do to a kid,
for a child their should always be somebody around to soothe the bad thing away, its part of being a child.

doing what is suggested in this post will have long term effects on a child and this post may be the result of suck actions

Ickle Magoo

I am a parent & would never, ever leave my kids in a hotel room so I can go for dinner or drinks without them - it just wouldn't even cross my mind to do it. There are so many awful things that could happen to my kids that I worry about all the time. Remote or not I would not leave them any more vulnerable than they already are by leaving them alone in a locked appartment (hazards of falling, choking, fire, etc) - or leaving the way clear for all manner of wierdo's by leaving the door open.

What other parents do & how they chose to parent their kids is up to them - they are the ones that have to live with the consequences. I couldn't live with myself if something happened to my children & I was there, if I had left them to fend for themselves & something happened then I don't know what I'd do.

How far is too far? If I can't hear them when they call then I'm too far. If I can't run to them in a matter of seconds then I'm too far. If I'm not between them & an open door then I'm too far. If I don't lock the door & stay inside with them in case the door needs to be opened, then I'm too far, etc, etc, etc...

Oryx

I also would never go out of earshot of my kids (4 and 1). They are still too young to be left alone for any length of time, not only because of abduction, (a very rare occurence) but because of all the reasons of safety and caregiving talked about here already. When I took them on holiday, we ate out with them and had drinks at our apartment, I wouldnt leave them even with a sitter, in a foreign country.


That said, bad parenting happens, whether through a lack of thought or deliberate neglect. In hindsight the McCanns were not being careful enough, no, but a sick and twisted person took their child. They didnt expect it and thought they were doing enough to mind their children. Sometimes we make stupid mistakes and get away with them, they didnt.

I only hope they get her back.

parsi

The Telegraph had an aerial shot showing the distances and it looks significant especially as their apartment was at the rear of the block.

Deliverance

Personally and this is no judgement on the parents, I have my little one (21mnths) in eyeshot in public all the time.

At home I have her within earshot, if there is silence for a little while when she is playing, intently focused on a toy, usually in another room, then I'm up and in, quietly checking to see that she is ok and not getting into trouble ie: choking etc.
When she is sleeping all doors are open and I sleep lightly, if she cries at night I'm up.

When you have kids everything becomes dangerous and as a parent you have to realise that.

I really hope this little girl is safe and is found, my heart goes out to the parents.

Deliverance

daiixi wrote:

Yes, when we were very young. As for the waking up screaming from a nightmare, who knows - my parents aren't exactly on hand for me to interregate them. But to be perfectly honest with you I think parents wrap their kids up in cotton wool way too much these days. Let the kid cry and learn that there won't always be someone on hand to soothe the bad things away.

Things today are much more dangerous for kids, I would prefer my child to be wrapped in cotton wool in the early years to protect her from any harm. when she can stand on her own two feet I will take the 'cotton wool' off.

Letting the 'kid' cry at this early age is not teaching them anything as they are to young to understand and are still developing emotionally, Mom or Dad coming in to comfort them when they are frightened and feel alone and scared after a nightmare is a good thing for them.

If one individual has had a tough life that does not mean it is a lesson that needs to be transferred onto anothers by experience in my view. I think other dangerous philosophies in the extreme are undertaken by more dangerous members of society whom I won't mention.

But those that understand as responsible parents will understand. Protect your kids wrap them in 'cotton wool' and except that they are your life, if you don't do this then your gambling with their futures

metrovelvet

A friend of my father's had his toddler for the weekend. He was bathing her one saturday evening. The phone rang and he went to answer it. Talked for two minutes and came back to the bath to find his daughter dead.

It only takes a minute.

Oryx

metrovelvet, thats awful, the second one mentioned in this thread. I was bathing my daughter lately, and as she played she stood up and slipped. I caught her before her head hit the water, and she was taking a big gasp with fright. If I had been out of the room for that split second shed be gone. Showed me how easy it can happen.

Nevyn

All it takes to drown is a egg cup full of water.
This can happen when a child is drinking never mind in a bath or arround a body of water.

Madge

I haven't got kids but if I did I certainly wouldn't leave them alone unattended until they were older. Imagine a 3 year old child all alone crying in their room and the parents just ignore him / her. Thats child abuse. I agree totally with everything Izzy Wizzy has said.

dame

The reports today are that there are three main suspects identified, a woman and two men. The best news is that they have CCTV footage of these people with a little girl resembling Madaleine, at a filling station in the Algarve after she went missing. They think the car was British-registered. Hopefully this is something concrete and they can track these people down and find the little girl.

Praying for Madeleine and her family.

Deliverance

Likewise, I'm hoping that this little girl is found safe and well eventually.

emzy

i cant belive that they left there children alone while they went for a lovely meal!!!!
what happened shouldnt happen to anyone but what do they expect when they leave children alone! esp 3 kids under the age of 3!i am soo angry over this i have a 2 yr old son and there is no way i would even go next door for a pint of milk while he was in bed!this is the type of sacrifices made when you have children!
i feel terrible sorry for what these parents are going through and i hope they are reunited very soon, but i also hope somthing is going to be done about them neglecting there children. people may think neglect is a strong word they may have provided emotionaly etc but leaving 3 children under 3 to go across the road for a meal in a forign country is NEGLECT!

greine

I agree with you emzy! I cannot fathom why those parents would leave 3 children that young alone. It's just crazy and so selfish on their part, that neither one of them were happy to sit in with their own kids and give the night a skip, or take it in turns. That poor little girl, paying the ultimate price for downright parental neglect.

And I am tired of hearing that Oh, how could we anticipate someting like this happening. If they were grown ups in the room I doubt there would have been a break in, it's so sad.

dame

I don't think the parents should be charged or punished. They obviously know it wasn't wise.

Besides, there are lenty of sickos out there and I wouldn't want to give any of them any justification for their behaviour. I'd hate to think they'd tell themselves it was all the parents fault so any child who is out of their parents sight is fair game.

Yes, the parents should have had their children with them or hired a minder, but the person or persons who took her are the culprits. There is absolutely no doubt about that. They are the ones who should be punished. They are worse than scum. May they never see the light of day again after they are caught.

Jotter

Just heard very scary story on tvam yesterday where an irish family were in lanzorote a few years ago and their apt was broken into. The parents were asleep in bed, the 4 kids (one a 2 yr old girl) was in the next room.
The mother woke from a draught and discovered the patio door open (lock picked) a bag containing her daughters clothes on a bed, her husbands passpot gone (the 2 yr old was on his passport) and a pile of clothes on the floor bec whoever broke in had changed into her husbands clothes for some reason. She said the complex said it was just a break in but her husband and her saw it as an abduction attempt on their daughter given that it was only her stuff that was touched. Very scary to think someone would be that cheeky to try steal a child from under your nose.

metrovelvet

Does anyone know what the motives are for these abductors? What do they do with the children?

Just want to add that most child abduction is by a family member but in these more extreme cases where its not anger over a bitter custody dispute what is going on?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/03/11/EDG305HISM1.DTL

Nevyn

Unknown as of yet.

karen3212

Like others above I too hope their little girl if found safe and well.

I also think that just because feels safe dosen't mean it is. These places are set up for families and they were given a listening device which seems to have made them feel safe about leaving their kids alone. Wasn't safe though, just felt safe.

I also heard a very sad story about an acquaintance of ours, he was looking after his baby twins. He left one on the bed for about a minute while he was changing the other(in the same room), and engrossed didn't see the other one crawling to the side of the bed. His little baby fell out, broke it's neck and died. I couldn't believe it, he'd just lost his concentration for a minute and tradgedy.

I feel so sorry for the parents, they must be suffering terribly and I imagine punishing themselves with guilt.

kelle

emzy wrote:

i cant belive that they left there children alone while they went for a lovely meal!!!!
what happened shouldnt happen to anyone but what do they expect when they leave children alone! esp 3 kids under the age of 3!i am soo angry over this i have a 2 yr old son and there is no way i would even go next door for a pint of milk while he was in bed!this is the type of sacrifices made when you have children!
i feel terrible sorry for what these parents are going through and i hope they are reunited very soon, but i also hope somthing is going to be done about them neglecting there children. people may think neglect is a strong word they may have provided emotionaly etc but leaving 3 children under 3 to go across the road for a meal in a forign country is NEGLECT!

I'm sure if they knew there were convicted sex attackers living nearby, they might have thought twice. This information only came about during her search!
I'd say the reason they didn't get a babysitter was because they were afraid to leave somebody whose background they didn't know in charge of their precious children, never realising there was somebody worse lurking around. Ironic, I know.
I'd never have done what they did, but I have often gone out to the clothes line or collected post from the postbox while kids were in the house - should I be prosecuted for this, emzy?
Obviously you and greine are perfect parents.

FatherTed

This is a terrible event but I'm sorry, the parents f-ked up. I know accidents happen and I know abductions are rare but this could have been prevented. The parents were just lazy.