A question about death & heaven

dawson9b7b

Hi everyone,

I have a question that I never quite figured out...if we were to die this very instant (as Christians) do we gain entry to heaven immediately or do we hang around until the final judgment? If we go to heaven right away then what's the point of having a final judgment?

Fanny Cradock

Good question. Not sure I can answer it though.

I would say one thing: 'Hanging around' implies that the afterlife is subject to the rigours of time, which I doubt.

MDTyKe

Interesting question. I've often wondered it myself. The typical Christian response is "absent with the body, present with the Lord" (from the Bible somewhere or other). That's used to say that when you leave the body, you go to Heaven (ie: Heaven being where God is).. However, the book of Revelation talks about a final judgement, and people being raised from the dead. Whether that applies to those *already* judged (those who believe in Christ are said to be already judged, because due to him dying we're seen as clean anyway) I dont know.

Interesting though

PDN

Jesus said to the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43)

kelly1

dawson9b7b wrote:

Hi everyone,

I have a question that I never quite figured out...if we were to die this very instant (as Christians) do we gain entry to heaven immediately or do we hang around until the final judgment? If we go to heaven right away then what's the point of having a final judgment?

Hello Dawson, assuming a person dies with sanctifying grace in their soul, a person's soul could either go to Heaven or Purgatory (according to Catholic teaching).

The body remains in the grave until the last judgement at which time it will be re-united with their bodies but in a glorified, transformed and spiritualized form.

Those who die before the last judgement will be judged in a particular judgement and will not be judged again. At the second coming for Christ, the last judgement will occur for those alive on earth at that time.

Jesus said, "As to the exact day or hour, no one knows it, neither the angels in heaven nor even the Son, but only the Father. Be constantly on the watch! Stay awake! You do not know when the appointed time will come" (Mk 13:32-33).

God bless,
Noel.

PDN

PDN wrote:

Jesus said to the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43)

Maybe the thief was special

JoeB-

kelly1 wrote:

The body remains in the grave until the last judgement at which time it will be re-united with their bodies but in a glorified, transformed and spiritualized form.

and what happens if the physical body is destroyed, i.e cremated? And the atoms re used in another different body? This would seem to suggest that the body can't be re united with the spirit....

Asiaprod

JoeBallantine wrote:

and what happens if the physical body is destroyed, i.e cremated? And the atoms re used in another different body? This would seem to suggest that the body can't be re united with the spirit....

We are talking about God who can do anything he pleases.

kelly1

JoeBallantine wrote:

and what happens if the physical body is destroyed, i.e cremated? And the atoms re used in another different body? This would seem to suggest that the body can't be re united with the spirit....

You're getting down to the nitty-gritty now. I don't know whether our old body is re-used/transformed or whether we receive an entirely new body. I must check this out...

mossieh

bluewolf wrote:

Maybe the thief was special

Getting friendly with the dude himself gives you a bit of pull, I'd imagine.

mossieh

Asiaprod wrote:

We are talking about God who can do anything he pleases.

Yeah, that's the whole problem isn't it? It ties in with the whole 'do we have free will' thread.

If he can do anything he pleases, why wait until the final judgement? Why not just beam the dead body up to heaven if the person has 'sanctifying grace' in their soul?

kelly1

JoeBallantine wrote:

and what happens if the physical body is destroyed, i.e cremated? And the atoms re used in another different body? This would seem to suggest that the body can't be re united with the spirit....

From the catechism:

How do the dead rise?

997 What is "rising"? In death, the separation of the soul from the body, the human body decays and the soul goes to meet God, while awaiting its reunion with its glorified body. God, in his almighty power, will definitively grant incorruptible life to our bodies by reuniting them with our souls, through the power of Jesus' Resurrection.

998 Who will rise? All the dead will rise, "those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment."552

999 How? Christ is raised with his own body: "See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself";553 but he did not return to an earthly life. So, in him, "all of them will rise again with their own bodies which they now bear," but Christ "will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body," into a "spiritual body":554

But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?" You foolish man! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body which is to be, but a bare kernel. . . . What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. . . . The dead will be raised imperishable. . . . For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality.555

1000 This "how" exceeds our imagination and understanding; it is accessible only to faith. Yet our participation in the Eucharist already gives us a foretaste of Christ's transfiguration of our bodies:

Just as bread that comes from the earth, after God's blessing has been invoked upon it, is no longer ordinary bread, but Eucharist, formed of two things, the one earthly and the other heavenly: so too our bodies, which partake of the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, but possess the hope of resurrection.556

552 Jn 5:29; cf. Dan 12:2.
553 Lk 24:39.
554 Lateran Council IV (1215): DS 801; Phil 3:21; 2 Cor 15:44.
555 1 Cor 15:35-37,42,52,53.
556 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 4,18,4-5:PG 7/1,1028-1029.

God bless,
Noel.

death1234567

kelly1 wrote:

assuming a person dies with sanctifying grace in their soul, a person's soul could either go to Heaven or Purgatory (according to Catholic teaching).

I thought the that the catholic church had done away with purgatory? Didn't they admit that it doesn't exist?

I thought they just made it up to get money/land out of people in the middle ages by allowing them to "buy" their way to heaven.

kelly1

death1234567 wrote:

I thought the that the catholic church had done away with purgatory? Didn't they admit that it doesn't exist?

I thought they just made it up to get money/land out of people in the middle ages by allowing them to "buy" their way to heaven.

Absolutely not! The teaching about Purgatory is an article of dogma. Are you confusing this with Limbo (which incidentally was/is only a theory)? And yes, there were abuses of indulgences before the reformation.

God bless,
Noel.

mossieh

death1234567 wrote:

I thought the that the catholic church had done away with purgatory? Didn't they admit that it doesn't exist?

I thought they just made it up to get money/land out of people in the middle ages by allowing them to "buy" their way to heaven.

I think you're thinking of limbo. Purgatory is still in full swing apparently. You don't hear so much about it these days though. On that note, presumably Hitler and history's other monsters are in purgatory, I wonder if enough neo-nazis prayed for him could he make it to heaven?

kelly1

mossieh wrote:

Hitler and history's other monsters are in purgatory, I wonder if enough neo-nazis prayed for him could he make it to heaven?

Unless Hitler and his hench-men died repenting for their innumerable sins, it's highly unlikely they're in Purgatory given that Purgatory is a place for those who died in a state of grace but who "have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions". i.e. the souls in Purgatory are saved an will someday enter Heaven.

mossieh

kelly1 wrote:

Unless Hitler and his hench-men died repenting for their innumerable sins, it's highly unlikely they're in Purgatory given that Purgatory is a place for those who died in a state of grace but who "have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions". i.e. the souls in Purgatory are saved an will someday enter Heaven.

That's interesting Noel, I believe that at least some of the Nazis held strong christian beliefs e.g. this quote from hitler: "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." It doesn't seem beyond the scope of possibility that he or others of the Nazi leadership did die 'repenting their innumerable sins'.

I presume that god would see all sins as forgiveable if the sinner truly repented, it makes me wonder how those who died in concentration camps would feel about meeting their former tormentors in heaven?

PDN

mossieh wrote:

I presume that god would see all sins as forgiveable if the sinner truly repented, it makes me wonder how those who died in concentration camps would feel about meeting their former tormentors in heaven?

Corrie ten Boom was a Dutch Christian who, along with her family, was sent to Ravensbruck concentration camp for sheltering Jews in their home. Her entire family died in the camps, including her sister dying in front of her eyes.

In one of her books she recounts how, many years later, she met one of the most sadistic of the Nazi guards from Ravensbruck at a Christian convention. He had now become a Christian! She records that forgiving him and accepting him as a fellow Christian, while possibly the hardest thing she ever did, was a rewarding experience.

If that can happen on earth, then I guess forgiveness can operate in heaven. Many Christians have prayed prayers of forgiveness for their persecutors, asking God to save them, right at the point of death.

mossieh

PDN wrote:

Corrie ten Boom was a Dutch Christian who, along with her family, was sent to Ravensbruck concentration camp for sheltering Jews in their home. Her entire family died in the camps, including her sister dying in front of her eyes.

In one of her books she recounts how, many years later, she met one of the most sadistic of the Nazi guards from Ravensbruck at a Christian convention. He had now become a Christian! She records that forgiving him and accepting him as a fellow Christian, while possibly the hardest thing she ever did, was a rewarding experience.

If that can happen on earth, then I guess forgiveness can operate in heaven. Many Christians have prayed prayers of forgiveness for their persecutors, asking God to save them, right at the point of death.

I don't doubt there are some believers whose faith is so strong it can allow them to forgive those persecutors, but they would be the exception rather than the rule I think. Of the 6 million+ who died in the camps there will be many who could find it difficult to forgive. Even if they did, I wonder how they will feel when they pass through the pearly gates and see some nazi, say goering for example, playing twister with john the baptist and joan of arc?

JoeB-

and why have any judgements at all???

After all, at the point of creation God's omniscience allowed him to see exactly what souls would be saved and not saved... why bother going through the motions of creating the universe, allowing such suffering, and then the results are the same anyway... all the souls due to be saved will be and the others won't be... so personnally I hold God responsible for the suffering on this planet because he had the power to prevent it... and our existence here does nothing for our eternal salvation, that is pre destined.

Also does the devil have any power to alter Gods omniscience? or does gods omniscience extend to the actions the devil may or may not take? or can the devil perform actions that will 'surprise' God?

I think it's all hogwash...

death1234567

mossieh wrote:

I think you're thinking of limbo.

I was, I thought limbo and purgatory were the same thing. (I read the limbo thread after I posted so I know the difference now.)

tbh

PDN wrote:

If that can happen on earth, then I guess forgiveness can operate in heaven. Many Christians have prayed prayers of forgiveness for their persecutors, asking God to save them, right at the point of death.

My aunt (RIP) was a nun, and she often used to say "between the stirrup and the ground, mercy I sought, mercy I found" - about an evil guy who fell off his horse and repented just before he died. Thanks for reminding me of that, and her

She also used to say that Purgatory was the absence of God's love - what I got from that is that when you die, you wait till the final judgement, but there is no feeling of time - in other words, when you die, you wake up (as it appears to you) instantly on the last day.

kelly1

tbh wrote:

My aunt (RIP) was a nun, and she often used to say "between the stirrup and the ground, mercy I sought, mercy I found" - about an evil guy who fell off his horse and repented just before he died. Thanks for reminding me of that, and her

Good quote!

tbh wrote:

She also used to say that Purgatory was the absence of God's love - what I got from that is that when you die, you wait till the final judgement, but there is no feeling of time - in other words, when you die, you wake up (as it appears to you) instantly on the last day.

Not quite my understanding. Those in purgatory are incapable of sinning and conform perfectly with the will of God. They are release when all debt due to their sins are paid in suffering. Our prayers and Masses also reduce the time in Purgatory.

St. Catherine's Treatise on Purgatory is a fascinating read and gives you some idea of just how holy God is.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/CATPUR.TXT

God bless,
Noel.

BrianCalgary

JoeBallantine wrote:

and why have any judgements at all???

After all, at the point of creation God's omniscience allowed him to see exactly what souls would be saved and not saved... why bother going through the motions of creating the universe, allowing such suffering, and then the results are the same anyway... all the souls due to be saved will be and the others won't be... so personnally I hold God responsible for the suffering on this planet because he had the power to prevent it... and our existence here does nothing for our eternal salvation, that is pre destined.

Also does the devil have any power to alter Gods omniscience? or does gods omniscience extend to the actions the devil may or may not take? or can the devil perform actions that will 'surprise' God?

I think it's all hogwash...

Joe, this is so typical of our society, blame someone else for our own evils.

God is not responsible for our evils, we are. So please stop coming on here and making such outrageous statements.

Right back at the Garden of Eden, Eve blamed her sin on the serpent, Adam blamed Eve. C'mon boy, they made their choices as you make yours.

BrianCalgary

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Once we are away from our bodies we are at home with teh Lord.

Since non-Christians have no desire to be with the Lord, they won't be. So where do they go?

They go to Hades, as described in Luke 16:19-26
19"There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side.[f] The rich man also died and was buried, 23and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.' 25But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' 27And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house-- 28for I have five brothers[g] --so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' 29But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' 30And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"

At the end of time, as related in Revelation 20:11-15, those dead in Hades will rise before the throne of God to be judged.

robindch

Out of interest, is Hades believed to be the same place as hell? The Greek descriptions of Hades are, after all, quite different from the scenes of hell described in the bible.

PDN

robindch wrote:

Out of interest, is Hades believed to be the same place as hell? The Greek descriptions of Hades are, after all, quite different from the scenes of hell described in the bible.

Hades (Greek) and Sheol (Hebrew) appear to describe a shadowy place where he dead await further judgment. Many Christians would see Hell, as a place of eternal torment, as being different from hades.

The King James Version of the Bible has caused great confusion by consistently translating Hades as Hell. Also, the idea of Satan somehow living in hell with all his demons is not found in the Bible.

robindch

Yes, that was what was behind my question

Does that mean that many christians are in a state of religious error in believing the wrong thing? And if so, do christians believe that when they die, they will be forgiven for believing -- in good faith -- the wrong thing, or do they believe that they will be condemned for it?

PDN

robindch wrote:

Yes, that was what was behind my question

Does that mean that many christians are in a state of religious error in believing the wrong thing? And if so, do christians believe that when they die, they will be forgiven for believing -- in good faith -- the wrong thing, or do they believe that they will be condemned for it?

Christians do not believe that you have to be correct about everything. I think all of us are mistaken about many things (Except myself of course )

I can only answer for evangelical Christians, but we would believe that saving faith is to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that He died on the Cross for us, and that He was raised from the dead. We believe that such faith, if it is genuine, will produce an improvement and turn around in our lifestyle (what the Bible calls 'repentance' which, contrary to popular opinion, means making a 180 degree turnaround rather than just feeling sorry). Apart from those basics, there is a wide variety of beliefs among Christians without us believing that will lose anyone their salvation.

So, for example, I would look at someone like Mother Theresa who, as a Catholic, would have many different beliefs and doctrines to me as an evangelical. However, I have no doubt that she believed in Jesus as her Saviour, and her life (much more than mine) showed evidence of that faith, so I would be incredibly stupid to argue that she was not saved, even though we would probably disagree on most everything else except the most important thing.

JoeB-

BrianCalgary wrote:

Joe, this is so typical of our society, blame someone else for our own evils.

God is not responsible for our evils, we are. So please stop coming on here and making such outrageous statements.

Right back at the Garden of Eden, Eve blamed her sin on the serpent, Adam blamed Eve. C'mon boy, they made their choices as you make yours.

I'm not blaming someone else...
If I hold a gun to someones head and require them to kill somebody then they can either do it or not do it... most people wouldn't have the strength to not do it although some may have...

For the people who kill under inducement due to weakness of spirit... these people wouldn't be seen as evil, I would be seen as the evil one for 'forcing' them to do it...

So, if god creates an evil person who then goes on to cause evil, is it not gods responsibility for the evil caused... after all, he knew what he was doing and allowed evil to prosper... if a bomb explodes and kills people it's not the bomb that's considered evil, it's the creator of the bomb that's evil.... in the world as described by the catholics I feel people take the place of the bomb, they have no choice but to fulfill the role assigned to them... and hence they are incapable of evil, the creator MUST take the responsibility.

I believe gods omniscience and free will are incompatable, that's it... simple as.... this means that for me I genuinely must reject the catholic god as being illogical... because I believe I do have choices to make.,.. and I wouldn't believe this if I believed in god because that would mean my life was predestined.

At the moment of creation, Gods omniscience allowed him to see the entire future, in my opinion this requires pre destination, pre destination precludes free will and that's it for me... my choice boils down to believing in god, in which case i only have the illusion of free will... or else not believing in god, in which case I am a free person... I prefer the latter.

Brian, you say I make outrageous statements although you're the one who believes in magical beings, who exist outside time and space, who live for ever, who can create life and entire universes, who can sit idly by while immense evils are perpertrated and yet you think this being is worthy of respect. I'm sorry but that's among the most outragous things I've ever heard.

BrianCalgary

JoeBallantine wrote:

So, if god creates an evil person who then goes on to cause evil, is it not gods responsibility for the evil caused.

No because God does not force th eperson to commit evil. The person themselves causes the evil.

JoeBallantine wrote:

... after all, he knew what he was doing and allowed evil to prosper... if a bomb explodes and kills people it's not the bomb that's considered evil, it's the creator of the bomb that's evil.... .

No it is the person who set the bomb off that is evil. Bows and arrows were possibly invented for the purpose of hunting, they then were used to kill off members of other tribes. So is the person who invented the bow and arrow responsible for the actions of the killer?

Is Henry Ford as the creator of the automobile then responsible for the actions of the hit and run driver who killed my daughters teacher last year?

Or the manufacturer of the dinner knife responsible for the victim of the stabbing?

It is the decision of the person commiting th eevil act who is ultimately responsible for their own actions, not the creator.

JoeBallantine wrote:

in the world as described by the catholics I feel people take the place of the bomb, they have no choice but to fulfill the role assigned to them... and hence they are incapable of evil, the creator MUST take the responsibility..

God allows us to make our choices. If we choose th elife He has planned for us, then and only then can God be held responsible for the actions of those people who make that choice.

JoeBallantine wrote:

I believe gods omniscience and free will are incompatable, that's it... simple as.... this means that for me I genuinely must reject the catholic god as being illogical... because I believe I do have choices to make.,.. and I wouldn't believe this if I believed in god because that would mean my life was predestined..

You do have choices to make. It is not illogical for a creator to offer choices to His creation. You have chosen to reject the Catholic God. He did not program you to do so, He did not predestine you to do it, you did it of your own volition.

JoeBallantine wrote:

At the moment of creation, Gods omniscience allowed him to see the entire future, in my opinion this requires pre destination, pre destination precludes free will and that's it for me... my choice boils down to believing in god, in which case i only have the illusion of free will... or else not believing in god, in which case I am a free person... I prefer the latter..

It does not rquire God to predestine anyone. Foreknowledge does not equal predestination.

JoeBallantine wrote:

Brian, you say I make outrageous statements although you're the one who believes in magical beings, who exist outside time and space, who live for ever, who can create life and entire universes, who can sit idly by while immense evils are perpertrated and yet you think this being is worthy of respect. I'm sorry but that's among the most outragous things I've ever heard.

God does not sit by and allow evils to be done. He is always there willling to step in. We have just rejected him. We have told Him to get lost and that we don't need Him.

God honours our choices.

Michael G

The traditional explanation is actually very human. After we die, we see everything about ourselves the way God does. Therefore all of us, even the best people, see where we fell short. Purgatory is really a voluntary pause, where we clean ourselves up before taking the next step.

Asiaprod

PDN wrote:

The King James Version of the Bible has caused great confusion by consistently translating Hades as Hell. Also, the idea of Satan somehow living in hell with all his demons is not found in the Bible.

That's something I have never heard before. According to your belief, where does Satan and his minions reside?

robindch

PDN wrote:

Christians do not believe that you have to be correct about everything. I think all of us are mistaken about many things (Except myself of course)

Perhaps that's true in theory, but even still, I've seen few christian -- yourself included -- who are prepared to admit that any of their beliefs could be wrong in any way.

Just while we're on the topic and out of interest, are there any of your beliefs that you believe could be wrong? Anything at all that you are less than 100% sure about?

We believe that such faith, if it is genuine, will produce an improvement and turn around in our lifestyle

Do I understand correctly from this that a belief can be non-genuine? What does this mean? Is this, for example, what happens when somebody bases their beliefs upon something like Pascal's Wager and convinces themselves, out of selfish interest, that it is better to believe something rather than not believe it? Or is it something else?

PDN

Asiaprod wrote:

That's something I have never heard before. According to your belief, where does Satan and his minions reside?

The Bible does not give us a whole lot of specific information about where Satan dwells or operates. This is probably because precise knowledge of this, while I would certainly find it interesting, is not essential for salvation or for living a Christian life.

We do know that Satan was originally in heaven and was some kind of angelic being. We also know that he was cast down from heaven because of his sin. Most Christians see this casting down as occurring very early on, possibly even before Adam and Eve etc. I would be in a minority position, even among evangelicals, in that I see the Scriptures as indicating that he was not cast out of heaven until the death and resurrection of Christ - therefore we see him coming before the presence of God in the Book of Job as a participant in some sort of heavenly council.

In the Book of Revelation Pergamum (Bergama in modern Turkey) is described as being where Satan has his throne, but may simply be a poetic way to referring to the wickedness and idolatry that dominated that city.

Various New Testament passages refer to Satan as "the prince of the power of the air", or to "spiritual forces of wickedness in high places" which may indicate that he, as a spiritual being, does not live in a specific location in the normal dimensions of time and space.

All of which is a very long-winded way of saying that we don't really know!

PDN

robindch wrote:

Perhaps that's true in theory, but even still, I've seen few christian -- yourself included -- who are prepared to admit that any of their beliefs could be wrong in any way.

That probably has more to do with how pig-headed we human beings are than to any characteristic of Christianity. I rarely find anyone on these boards who will admit they are wrong, be it on a matter of faith, politics, or even a very self-evident and well supported point of history!

I think most of us, while we naturally argue our corners as well as we can, entertain the possibility that we might be wrong on quite a lot of stuff.

Just while we're on the topic and out of interest, are there any of your beliefs that you believe could be wrong? Anything at all that you are less than 100% sure about?

Quite a lot actually. Most of the details of the Second Coming of Christ, for example. Another biggie, at least as far as Christians are concerned, would be whether once you are saved you are always saved, or whether you can lose your faith and be lost again. I lean one way more than the other, but in the end I might be totally wrong. Heaps of other stuff as well, but none of the really central stuff such as the deity of Christ, salvation by faith, etc.

Do I understand correctly from this that a belief can be non-genuine? What does this mean? Is this, for example, what happens when somebody bases their beliefs upon something like Pascal's Wager and convinces themselves, out of selfish interest, that it is better to believe something rather than not believe it? Or is it something else?

Perhaps it would be better to say that a "profession of belief" may not be genuine. For example, if someone professes to accept Christ because they are caught up in the emotionalism of a big revival meeting, or to please their girlfriend, or so a crusader won't chop their head off - these have much more to do with self-preservation or gaining a material advantage than any spiritual motivation.

Also, for Christians, faith is more than just believing the bare facts about Jesus. For example, Satan believes that Jesus is the Son of God and that He died on the Cross - but we don't believe Satan is a Christian! Faith, for the believer, includes an element of putting trust in Christ - more believing on Him than in Him. A common illustration is that you may believe that a tightrope walker could carry a man on his back across a canyon (believing in the tightrope walker), but that is very different from actually consenting for yourself to be carried across (believing on the tightrope walker).

This is why I have real difficulties with approaches of those, like CS Lewis, who seemed to suggest that becoming a Christian was simply an intellctual choice. For me it is much more than that. Apologetics is more to defend the consistency & coherency of Christianity once you have taken a step of faith, rather than trying to argue people into accepting Christ.

Asiaprod

PDN wrote:

All of which is a very long-winded way of saying that we don't really know!

Thanks, that was interesting.

tasky

watch this guy..

http://www.amazingfacts.org/resources/video/NRVideo/NR10.asx

maitri

This thread reminds me of this story:

A kindly old man died peacefully and found himself resurrected in the middle of a country road. And behold! Running toward him was his favorite dog! He knelt and embraced his long lost pet in tearful reunion. After some time, the dog seemed anxious to walk the road in what seemed to be the direction of the rising sun. The man followed.

Before long, they came to a fence of wrought gold, with pearly gates, behind which there stood mansion upon mansion. The gatekeeper, a tall man in flowing white robes, greeted the man, and welcomed him to enter.

"But what exactly is this place?" said the man, who had been a lifelong agnostic.

"This," said the gatekeeper, is Heaven. But you'll have to leave him outside. We have a strict no-pets policy."

The man stood in confusion for some moments. His face became grim. "No thanks," he said. "I'll take my chances with my dog."

For a long time, the man and his dog wandered down the road. At last they came to an unpretentious farming community with no fences or gates of any kind. What appeared to be a contented old farmer was sitting on a stool next to an old-fashioned hand operated water pump. The dog ran up to the farmer, who petted him, and gave him some water.

"Where is this place?" asked the man.

"This is Heaven," answered the farmer. "It's all around you. You've been in it, or at least the outskirts of it ever since you died."

"But that fellow back yonder behind the pearly gates said that place was Heaven." replied the man.

"Nah, that's Hell," replied the farmer. "We leave the entrance there to weed out the hypocrites who'd leave their best friend behind."

Sorry for being slightly off topic...:o

Fallen Seraph

PDN wrote:

We do know that Satan was originally in heaven and was some kind of angelic being. We also know that he was cast down from heaven because of his sin. Most Christians see this casting down as occurring very early on, possibly even before Adam and Eve etc. I would be in a minority position, even among evangelicals, in that I see the Scriptures as indicating that he was not cast out of heaven until the death and resurrection of Christ - therefore we see him coming before the presence of God in the Book of Job as a participant in some sort of heavenly council.

Out of curiousity, might I enquire as to why you believe that satan's downfall only occurred after the resurrection? I thought that Jesus was tempted in the desert by "the devil" (I believe is the phrase that's used) and there are plenty of instances of people being possessed by demons which, as people like milton would have us believe, would require the fall to have occurred beforehand, surely?

PDN

Fallen Seraph wrote:

Out of curiousity, might I enquire as to why you believe that satan's downfall only occurred after the resurrection? I thought that Jesus was tempted in the desert by "the devil" (I believe is the phrase that's used) and there are plenty of instances of people being possessed by demons which, as people like milton would have us believe, would require the fall to have occurred beforehand, surely?

'The Fall' (apart from being a rather mediocre Mancunian punk band) is usually used in Christian Theology to refer to Adam & Eve's sin, loss of innocence, and expulsion from the Garden of Eden. When Christians speak of 'the fall of Satan' they are not always clear as to whether they mean Satan's original descent into sinfulness, or his expulsion from heaven. Many common ideas about Satan (red guy with a pitchfork who lives in hell) are from medieval thinking not from the Bible.

Satan certainly fell into sin before Adam & Eve. However, there is a strong case for arguing that the biblical concept is of Satan not being evicted from the heaven until after the death of Christ. For Jesus to be tempted, or indeed for people to be demonised, would not necessarily entail Satan's prior expulsion from heaven.

I can appreciate, with a screen-name like your's, that this could be a matter of interest.

Fallen Seraph

PDN wrote:

Satan certainly fell into sin before Adam & Eve. However, there is a strong case for arguing that the biblical concept is of Satan not being evicted from the heaven until after the death of Christ. For Jesus to be tempted, or indeed for people to be demonised, would not necessarily entail Satan's prior expulsion from heaven.

I can appreciate, with a screen-name like your's, that this could be a matter of interest.

Indeed; belief isn't needed to find enjoyment in some of the more colourful aspects of christianity


And would you be able to point me in the direction of bibical passages which support this argument? Or is access to slightly more obscure literature necessary?