Bertie to step down

Senator

Vincent Browne has just revealed on the RTE lunchtime news that Bertie Ahern told him in an interview to be aired tonight on Browne's radio prog that he (Bertie) will be stepping down before the next election if he is re-elected as Taoiseach at this one.

As Vincent said, if you think you're voting for Bertie for another 5 years you're not because he says he's going.

This MIGHT influence certain voters. It also might influence certain FF politicians who have now just heard the starting gun for the race to be next leader of their party.

The mud has stuck.

Judt

That had been his intention, though? Err, what age is he now versus the age he said he'd retire from politics at?

Anyways, FF is throwing everything up to and including the kitchen sink out the window, with three weeks still left to go. If stuff like this is cropping up it'll be a hellova ride.

As for announcing he'll go, look at how well that worked for Tony Blair...

Senator

Senator wrote:

This MIGHT influence certain voters.

To vote for or against FF though?

Senator wrote:

It also might influence certain FF politicians who have now just heard the starting gun for the race to be next leader of their party.

Expect Biffo.

Would rather Hanafin or D Ahern...

Macy

Deleted User wrote:

Expect Biffo.

Would rather Hanafin or D Ahern...

I'd say you would alright. Biffo comes across very poorly on TV and Radio - there was actually a discussion in here today about how bad he was on Primetime last night, for example (although, bizarrely, I've seen FFers on other forums making out he kicked Brutons arse).

Senator

When I said "influence voters", I meant that some folks might factor this into their considerations on how they will vote.

Bertie Ahern has now effectively - like Tony Blair - made himself a potentially lame duck Taoiseach in his next administration. No serious work will get done as everyone will want to know exactly when he is stepping down and the various rivals for next Taoiseach will be jockeying for position and rallying their supporters in various camps. That is precisely what happened here in Britain (where I live) with Blair and his Labour government when he announced he would be stepping down. There has just been a long period of drift and in-fighting and backstabbing in government while we wait until Tone announces his leaving date, which he'll do just as soon as today's local and Scottish and Welsh elections are done with.

Do people want a situation in Ireland replicating the drift, in-fighting and backstabbing we've had in Britain ? That's apparently what is now on offer from Bertie & Co. if they win this election.

ateam

Senator wrote:

When I said "influence voters", I meant that some folks might factor this into their considerations on how they will vote.

Bertie Ahern has now effectively - like Tony Blair - made himself a potentially lame duck Taoiseach in his next administration. No serious work will get done as everyone will want to know exactly when he is stepping down and the various rivals for next Taoiseach will be jockeying for position and rallying their supporters in various camps. That is precisely what happened here in Britain (where I live) with Blair and his Labour government when he announced he would be stepping down. There has just been a long period of drift and in-fighting and backstabbing in government while we wait until Tone announces his leaving date, which he'll do just as soon as today's local and Scottish and Welsh elections are done with.

Do people want a situation in Ireland replicating the drift, in-fighting and backstabbing we've had in Britain ? That's apparently what is now on offer from Bertie & Co. if they win this election.

The one big difference between Bertie and Blair is Iraq. Blair became unpopular and distrusted over the whole WMD thing and the subsequent disaster in Iraq. Bertie doesn't have that disadvantage and will remain popular until the end. He's just being honest.

Enda Kenny is giving this extraordinary "contract" that says if he doesn't fulfill his promises, he'll thrown in the towel. Extremely negative and defeatus...not at all what we want to see in our politicians. Least Bertie is being honest.

Oirthir

ateam wrote:

The one big difference between Bertie and Blair is Iraq. Blair became unpopular and distrusted over the whole WMD thing and the subsequent disaster in Iraq. Bertie doesn't have that disadvantage and will remain popular until the end. He's just being honest.

Yeah, cause Bertie didn't get involved in the Iraq mess at all, those soliders are just stopping in Shannon for the award winning duty-free and it's rendition specials.

The_Minister

Macy wrote:

although, bizarrely, I've seen FFers on other forums making out he kicked Brutons arse.

In terms of his arguements he won. In terms of delivery and style(which is what counts in politics), Bruton won.

Senator

Of course, Bertie might have no say in when he goes when the Tribunal resumes. :rolleyes:

da_deadman

ateam wrote:

The one big difference between Bertie and Blair is Iraq. Blair became unpopular and distrusted over the whole WMD thing and the subsequent disaster in Iraq. Bertie doesn't have that disadvantage and will remain popular until the end. He's just being honest.

On the other hand Bertie does have all this stuff with the Mahon Tribunal, which will be on the agenda shortly after the election. I think at the moment there is quite a lot of distrust in Bertie in the country.

However, I guess he probably will 'remain popular until the end' (even if he loses the election), due to the way that so many people just seem to really like the guy on a personal level. I don't know why

Macy

The_Minister wrote:

In terms of his arguements he won. In terms of delivery and style(which is what counts in politics), Bruton won.

Not so sure he even won the arguement, but regardless would agree on delivery and style and it's importance.

lostexpectation

Senator wrote:

Vincent Browne has just revealed on the RTE lunchtime news that Bertie Ahern told him in an interview to be aired tonight on Browne's radio prog that he (Bertie) will be stepping down before the next election if he is re-elected as Taoiseach at this one.

As Vincent said, if you think you're voting for Bertie for another 5 years you're not because he says he's going.

This MIGHT influence certain voters. It also might influence certain FF politicians who have now just heard the starting gun for the race to be next leader of their party.

I know bertie said that ages ago, is this interview from this week? has he said outside the interview recently?

Senator

The full Bertie interview is on the VB prog on RTE Radio 1 at 10 tonight.

Marksie

ateam wrote:

Least Bertie is being honest.

There is a first time i guess. His latest "stamp duty" issue is not going away.

jmayo

So has Vincent Browne become a mouthpiece for FF ?
Does this mean that now to woo voters not impressed with Berties antics, FF are hinting that Bertie is going to go soon after election, even if elected taoiseach?
Maybe biffo and the boys are preparing the way already?
How about welcoming McDougal into the fold and making him leader since his own party is up the creek :-)
I'd love to see him do the chicken dinner cicruit.

There's more twists and turns to this than a road in Cavan...

jmayo

Bertie and honest, not two words I normal associate together...

Although maybe like one of those American car salesmen I suppose?

ballooba

ateam wrote:

Enda Kenny is giving this extraordinary "contract" that says if he doesn't fulfill his promises, he'll thrown in the towel. Extremely negative and defeatus...not at all what we want to see in our politicians. Least Bertie is being honest.

If you come from the Fianna Fail school where politicians don't keep their promises, then you might be forgiven for thinking that. Most people in life however like to keep the promises they make. Enda has every intention of doing this and potentially getting the three terms that Bertie will never achieve.

The_Minister

ballooba wrote:

Enda has every intention of doing this and potentially getting the three terms that Bertie will never achieve.

ROLF
Enda is a one-term Taoiseach at best. There are too many others in the FG party who want the top job, for him to stay. Most FG'ers would knife Kenny in a second if they thought that Bruton would be head. There has been little competition for leadership in FG recently because there was no chance that they might get in. Now that they have a chance, they're not going to let someone like Kenny stay in charge.

Seth Brundle

ateam wrote:

Least Bertie is being honest.

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

ballooba

ballooba wrote:

Most people in life however like to keep the promises they make.

In 1982, Fine Gael promised to turn this country into a shambles, an economic mess. They delivered.

In 1992, Fine Gael promised that if they got in they would end the IRA ceasefire and try and screw up the peace process. Though it took 2 more years to get in, they delivered.

Yeah, Fine Gael stand by their promises alright. Deviating from promises is unique to Fianna Fail...

gandalf

LOL so Fine Gael went out and forced the IRA to end their ceasefire, please you are now entering the realm of fantasy politics.

What I see here is the preparation being put in place to woo the Greens as potential Coalition partners. Trevor Sargent stated that he would not go into coalition with FF with Bertie as Taoiseach, looks like the foundations have been laid. Of course there is the strong possibility that something substaintial is going to rear its head when the tribunials recommence after the election.

gandalf

gandalf wrote:

LOL so Fine Gael went out and forced the IRA to end their ceasefire

Not at all, you spectacularly missed the point. Are you saying FF go out and force people onto hospital trolleys? Fantasy etc. etc.

The point I was making is that things don't always pan out as set out in manifestos. That's not unique to FF. One need only look at FG and their own record of keeping to promises. Did they promise in 1992 to continue the peace process for example? Did they deliver on that?

The_Minister

gandalf wrote:

Trevor Sargent stated that he would not go into coalition with FF with Bertie as Taoiseach, looks like the foundations have been laid. .

Sergent as said that he would still take a senior ministry in a government with Bertie leading, so there is no need for this to woo the greens.

gandalf

Deleted User wrote:

Not at all, you spectacularly missed the point. Are you saying FF go out and force people onto hospital trolleys? Fantasy etc. etc.

Well based on my direct experiences of the health service over the last 10 years with my parents, one of whom died after 8 months and 2 bouts of MRSA they are more responsible for that than your whimsical thought that FG took down the Peace Process :rolleyes:

The point I was making is that things don't always pan out as set out in manifestos. That's not unique to FF. One need only look at FG and their own record of keeping to promises. Did they promise in 1992 to continue the peace process for example? Did they deliver on that?

It could also be pointed out that the current Peace Process can be traced back to Garrett Fitzgerald and the Anglo-Irish agreement, without that agreement we wouldn't be at the position we are at now.

You are grasping at straws Conor at this stage.

gandalf

gandalf wrote:

Well based on my direct experiences of the health service over the last 10 years with my parents, one of whom died after 8 months and 2 bouts of MRSA they are more responsible for that than your whimsical thought that FG took down the Peace Process.

I'm sorry for that. I had a close relation who died in a hospital waiting for an operation during the Rainbow Coalition's time in office. I didn't think it appropriate to raise it as an argument here. You again are completely missing the point I made, which is not that FG 'took down' the Peace Process, but that events sometimes transpire other than as promised in manifestos.

gandalf

Deleted User wrote:

I'm sorry for that. I had a close relation who died in a hospital waiting for an operation during the Rainbow Coalition's time in office. I didn't think it appropriate to raise it as an argument here. You again are completely missing the point I made, which is not that FG 'took down' the Peace Process, but that events sometimes transpire other than as promised in manifestos.

But they obviously did continue the Peace Process, just because one of the groups involved decided to break a ceasefire doesn't mean it just stopped. You are grasping at straws if this is the best you can do.

As for bringing up my Fathers death I do think it is very relevant as over that time of this government he was in hospital 3 times for related problems. The first was a Heart problem in 1997, he was 6 hours on a trolley that time in A&E, the next time he had a Heart Attack in 2001 he waited 16 hours on a trolley, the final time April of 2005 he had a stroke and was on a trolley for 2 days and only got a bed because we rang his Heart Consultant in Blackrock and begged him to help. In those final 8 months I saw how messed up our Health Service is and how overstretched the front line staff are. Thats a real issue not the rubbish you have brought up there.

gandalf

BTW having seen Berties performance at the news conference on 6 one news I do think that FF are panicing. Its obvious now that he is going to be hounded about his finances by the media up to polling day.

One of the backbenchers has also broken rank in Cork and is whinging they are going to get a kicking down there in the polls.

Also if Bertie does step down if FF do make it through the election I feel that Cowan has now been damaged as a future leader because of the Stamp Duty climbdown. Are we seeing FF starting to implode here.

gandalf

gandalf wrote:

Thats a real issue not the rubbish you have brought up there.

My father died last October. He had had a number of strokes in recent years. In fact 8 out of his 15 siblings have dies of strokes now. At the end he didn't recognise us, his children, and his system pretty much shut itself down, speech, movement, kidneys, brain over a long period of time. But he passed away pretty peacefully. The treatment he was given, and the work of the doctors and nurses who looked after him in his final months, was just fantastic. Outstanding.

Is this a 'rubbish' point too or do you see where I am going? Lets not keep going down this road. I'm sorry for your tragedy, but frankly that doesn't mean that only FF break promises.

gandalf

I am sorry about your loss as well Conor but you are missing my point. The NI example you have put up saving they broke it is inaccurate because they could not control what the IRA did back then and you know that. I will get back on topic here anyway. Maybe we should start up a thread on the Health Service separately.

Ah come here ya big lug...

I know the point you are making and not suggesting that FG engineered the collapse of the ceasefire, though John Bruton saying he was sick of the ******* peace process couldn't have helped. But chance, fate, whatever, sometimes has a way of intruding on promises made with good intentions.

Jackz

So Bertie might be replaced as Taoiseach in the last year of the next government, thats not really a big deal is it.

I think he stated along time ago on the Ray Darcy show that he would retire around that time.

I suppose Enda "Air punching, please take me seriously" Kenny does have age on his side.

Dirk Gently

Senator wrote:

Vincent Browne has just revealed on the RTE lunchtime news that Bertie Ahern told him in an interview to be aired tonight on Browne's radio prog that he (Bertie) will be stepping down before the next election if he is re-elected as Taoiseach at this one..

I really hope so, (have a feeling he wont stay on after this election) after last nights breaking news over on politics.ie about the stamp duty U turn I had a feeling bertie was more or less finished so I logged onto paddy power to check the odds on Brian Cowan being next taoisaigh.

odds on cowan last night were 16 - 1.

by lunch time today the odds on cowan were slashed to 8-1.

Luckily I got to boyle sports before they slashed their odds and managed to stick 50 euro on cowan at odds of 25-1.

ateam

Bertie is on record as saying he will retire from politics when he is 60.

No Fine Gael Taoiseach has ever been re-elected in the history of the state - that speaks for itself.

Seth Brundle

...and Bertie wouldn't lie!

Judt

kbannon wrote:

...and Bertie wouldn't lie!

"That's not what I said."

But you clearly... "...Didn't say that." *tear*

clown bag

clown bag wrote:

Luckily I got to boyle sports before they slashed their odds and managed to stick 50 euro on cowan at odds of 25-1.

Mightn't be the best bet now:

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2007/0504/1178204390326.html

Cowen has yet to close stamp duty loophole on developers

Mark Hennessy, Political Correspondent

Legislation passed to close a stamp duty loophole used by major property developers has not been implemented by Minister for Finance Brian Cowen nearly three months after it became law.

Developers using the loophole do not buy lands outright but, instead, pay the landowner a licence fee to develop them, leaving the homebuyer to pick up all of the stamp duty tab.

Last year, the Revenue Commissioners identified 60 cases, though it admitted that many more cases existed since its survey was "not exhaustive".

Under a late Finance Act amendment, Mr Cowen tightened the rules, requiring stamp duty to be paid in any contract where landowners received a licence worth more than 25 per cent of the land's value.

During the debate in February, Mr Cowen acknowledged that the Revenue Commissioners had found that use of the tax loophole had become "common practice" in 2006. "They devised this proposal to deal with it," he said, adding that Revenue believed that a minimum of €40 million was lost to the exchequer last year.

"We expect the provisions we are now making will deal with that situation," he told Labour Dublin West TD Joan Burton, who has frequently raised builders' use of tax loopholes.

Despite the scale of the problem, however, Mr Cowen has not signed the commencement order needed to bring the new powers into effect.

Asked about his decision not to do so, the Minister's spokesman said: "The inclusion of a commencement order allows the Minister to decide on an appropriate time for giving effect to the provision having regard to the state of the housing sector, market conditions and the impact of the stamp duty cost to the developer being passed on to housebuyers."

In a letter late last month to Ms Burton, the chairman of the Revenue Commissioners, Frank Daly, said developers secured a licence to "enter on to lands and erect buildings.

The usual way of achieving this is for the landowner to grant the developer or his bank or both a power of attorney, which allows them to execute a conveyance or transfer of the legal title to the ultimate purchaser without further recourse to the landowners.

"Because there is no conveyance of the land from the landowner to the developer, stamp duty does not arise at this point. Stamp duty does, however, arise when the ultimate purchaser buys the land on which a building will usually have been erected by the developer, subject to the availability of the normal stamp duty reliefs."

Ms Burton said builders had other means of avoiding tax, including cases where they hired their own companies to do work for them. The company is paid at below cost, leaving the builder with all of the profit. Once the land is sold, the money is declared as a capital gain and taxed at 20 per cent and not as income tax at 41 per cent.

Changes made to the Finance Act give Revenue powers to query "artificial transactions", but company owners are under no obligation to declare such cases in advance to the taxman.
© 2007 The Irish Times

Tricity Bendix

Myth wrote:

The mud has stuck.

Ahern has always said he wants to retire from politics at 50. The only 'mud' in this story is the fact that Vincent Browne - the cherub that he is - is packaging this news as if it is new in an effort to hurt Fianna Fáil.

JackieO

I think it is widely expected the Bertie will step down very soon after the election.

Seth Brundle

JackieO wrote:

I think it is widely expected the Bertie will step down very soon after the election.

Given the current situation, I think that is likely that he will be forced to step down!