When sets go wrong...

Flushdraw

Hand from the JP monthly game. All players have approx 10k as this is ony about 6 or 7 hands into the tournie so no reads either.

2 limpers for 50 and i limp from MP with 33. BB raises to 100. 3 callers incl me.

Flop is Kc5c3x

BB bets 300, i make it 900. Player to my left makes it 3500, BB calls 3500. Action back on me.....

2nd hand

Similar scenario as above. Both myself and LP player have about 12k, i see a flop for 100 with 4 others and i'm holding 55.

Flop is 8s7s5c

2 checks to me and i bet 350. 1 caller from late position, all the rest fold.

Turn is a Jx

I bet 1650. LP calls.

River is a 9s..the worst card the dealer could have turned over. i check and he bets 700 into a 4500 pot. Does anybody find a call here, if only to see what cards he was playing?

connie147

!st hand its possible your behind, but I hate folding sets. The player to your left I presume was in latish position, so surely KK can be ruled out here cause he hardly limped with KK after 3 limpers, the same reasoning for the BB as he's hardly min-raising with KK after 3 or 4 limpers.(actually, with no reads yet, surely we can assume that the BB is possibly a muppet, which is the opinion I'd form if I saw a BB min-raise after 3 or 4 limpers.(i'd like to know if more people would make the same assumption).Its very early in the tourney for such a big pot, but I'm possibly going broke here.I think only 55 can beat us.

Hand 2 is a bitch. You know your behind here but for 700 into 4.5k pot,I think you must call, even as you say if its for info only. You'll still have a very playable stack of 9.5k. Looks like you got v unlucky on the river here, forcing your opponnent into a mistake on the turn but seeing him rewarded sucks!

Mr.Plough

im shoving hand 1

hand 2 - meh, i call cuz im a dope

TheRock

Hand 1; As you said you have no reads, this is difficult.
Yes I would agree with Connie that its a muppet play min raising with 3 callers ahead, achieves nothing. But is he the type of muppet who min raises AA or KK thinking its the nuts? The 300 lead out after the flop could be either, If he is that type he would probably try check/raise a set of kings though. The 3500 bet looks like either a set of 5s or a nut flush draw trying to take down the pot to me.
Best case I think your looking at Aces and Nut Flush Draw, worst case Set of Kings and/or Set of 5s. I think I'd fold with the action ahead of me, think your behind to at least one of them.

Hand 2; Was the caller in the blinds? Looks like he flop a straight and is milking it to me if so. If not he probable made the hand on the river. Marginal call knowing I'm beat, depending on the mood im in.

BigCityBanker

Hand 1 - Im pushing (is this bad?)

Hand 2 - It seems a stupid call but its hard not to call.

LuckyLloyd

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phantom_lord

1. um, that's scary action, I might fold here. depends. prob just shove anyway.


2. just for fun...what about raising?

bottom feeder

hand 1 / Tony of the same opinion as PhantomLord, the re re-raise doesnt look healthy but with a set its kinda hard to lay down.....!

hand 2 / deffo call here, but from the title of your post i'd say you called and he was holding X6 or something...

did you lay down hand 1....?

smurph

UnLuckyLloyd wrote:

Hand 1) In that tournament I shove every single time with bottom set and feel really, really good about it irrespective of whether I am ahead after the river or not.

Hand 2) Call. You are almost certaintly* beat, but the info is worth the 700.

*The players in that tournament are bad enough to make that bet sometimes with two pair or a terribly played AA - maybe one out of the every seven you need to make the call profitable.

It was my first Time at the tournament and yes the standard was very mixed, but surely your not going to re-raise all in after 6 hands in the tournament on a board like that? Flushdraw has no reads on players yet, and I don't think he needs to re-raise all in. I would call the 3.5k and if there is a brick on the turn move all in.

Hand 2 yes I agree, make a crying call for 700 for information alone.

LuckyLloyd

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phantom_lord

look at the action, that's a joke of a range lloyd.

LuckyLloyd

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bottom feeder

UnLuckyLloyd wrote:

If you shove, you will get called in that game by so much more than a better set:

AK
KQ
KJ
Any Ax Flush Draw
Any Two pair
Open ended straight draw
Any xx flushdraw
AA
QQ
JJ

The pre - flop action indicates that any of those hands are there (even the big pairs or AK type hands - they are routinely played small pre - flop and then pushed on any flop by pub players). And the flop action could also be played with two people holding one each of the above combinations.

And yes, 55 and KK are also possibillities.

However, we do really well against the range of possible hands that we are against. I would be more than happy to get it in vs any of those hands now (except the bigger sets). I hate calling the 3500. The pot will then be bigger than our stack and we will be leaving ourselves massive scope to make a big mistake on the turn.

The fact that we have no reads should make our decision easier if anything.

I'm shoving. I think that folding or calling are massive mistakes. I will listen to arguments to the contrary. But I feel very certain right now about what I am writing.

Lloyd very well said however seems that this is so early on, with a good [enough] structue and if the players are so bad do you not agree that you'd find a better spot to pick them off.....?

smurph

UnLuckyLloyd wrote:

O rly? You played against these guys before?

If Flushdraw said he was up against 2 boards players (who's names he kept from the post) would you still push here?. There was good players aswell as bad at the tournament, pretty much like most tournaments in Dublin to be honost so making comments like above is pretty strange.

phantom_lord

UnLuckyLloyd wrote:

AK
KQ
KJ
Any Ax Flush Draw
Any Two pair
Open ended straight draw
Any xx flushdraw
AA
QQ
JJ

no i haven't played them, but they must be on crack is they're either re-re-raising or cold calling for a third of their stack and calling a shove with almost all of those hands you have listed.

LuckyLloyd

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LuckyLloyd

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LuckyLloyd

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bottom feeder

UnLuckyLloyd wrote:

Their play is awful. Just awful.

everybody got to start some where...:)

LuckyLloyd

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bottom feeder

Lloyd your changing dude....HULK

BigCityBanker

I do think Lloyds range is reasonable here.

My first JP monthly tourney I witness a guy call an all in after 20 mins of play when there were already 2 guys all in ahead of him on a board of QdJdJc6d board. One of the guys had QJ and BigD had J6. This guy called his all in with J2 and by his own reckoning was "fierce unlucky there". The last time I played a guy 4 bet me aipf with 99. Im with Lloyd here and I get it all across the line with a certain degree of comfort and dont worry myself too much about it if its my exit hand.

How many times have people correctly laid down bottom set on the flop?

phantom_lord

BigCityBanker wrote:

I do think Lloyds range is reasonable here.

My first JP monthly tourney I witness a guy call an all in after 20 mins of play when there were already 2 guys all in ahead of him on a board of QdJdJc6d board. One of the guys had QJ and BigD had J6. This guy called his all in with J2 and by his own reckoning was "fierce unlucky there". The last time I played a guy 4 bet me aipf with 99. Im with Lloyd here and I get it all across the line with a certain degree of comfort and dont worry myself too much about it if its my exit hand.

How many times have people correctly laid down bottom set on the flop?

totally different noel. he had trips!!



I would be AMAZED if a bad inexperienced player turned up with of the draws Lloyd mentioned after making it 3.5k. and no way he has any of the one pair hands u mentioned either. also the bb has shown huge strength post flop.

i wouldn't feel great about bottom set here at all.

RasTa

5 jacks?

ditpoker

UnLuckyLloyd wrote:

Top pair is a massive hand to me.

ah lloyd.... corrected for accuaracy.

Silver-Tiger

I'm 100% with Lloyd here also,

Ya gotta play in these games to believe the guys your up against.

bb AA mid pos KQ is a huge possibilty, top pair is more than the nuts to some of these guys, if either has 55 or KK so be it,

In JPs monthly game i happily get them across the line with bottom set and as lloyd said don't feel bad about the outcome at all.

ditpoker

RasTa wrote:

5 jacks?

jp's games are rigged. he puts an extra card in each deck just to keep players guessing. i was once knocked out holding QhQd against QsQc all in preflop but he paired his Qs on the turn... bad beat... sick one outer.

BigCityBanker

RasTa wrote:

5 jacks?

Oh dear, one player had QQ then.

Flushdraw

Thanks for the replys folks, I'm just out of the leaba so read them now.

If this hand hand had happened 45 mins into the tournament i would have realised that the BB was a muppet player and the other guy was quite decent and a bit weary of me but i still would have played the hand the same.

I was 3rd to act and the the re-raiser was 4th to act. When he makes it 3500, the only hand i can really put him on is 55. I'd push against the BB 100 times out of 100 but the limp, call preflop from re-raiser and the flop action seems to show a lot more strength that the hands Lloyd suggests.

Anyway i decide to fold. I've still 9k left and its early on in a deepstack game and i dont think having 9k affects my chances of winning the tournie. Calling was out of the question and i didnt want to be saying in the bar that i knew i was behind but i had a set...

So the turn brings a 6c. Pot is now 8k+ and BB bets 400 :eek: other dude makes a call. River is a fourth club and the BB goes allin. The MP dude folds 55 and BB mucks his hand. He must have had AcKx, AcQc, AcJc..that was my initial thought.

In the 2nd hand, i didnt even make the call for 700 as i felt it was wasted money but had this hand happened an hour later, i would have bet the hand harder (even though i think i bet it hard enough) because he seemed like a bit of a tool.

bottom feeder

Flushdraw wrote:

Thanks for the replys folks, I'm just out of the leaba so read them now.

If this hand hand had happened 45 mins into the tournament i would have realised that the BB was a muppet player and the other guy was quite decent and a bit weary of me but i still would have played the hand the same.

I was 3rd to act and the the re-raiser was 4th to act. When he makes it 3500, the only hand i can really put him on is 55. I'd push against the BB 100 times out of 100 but the limp, call preflop from re-raiser and the flop action seems to show a lot more strength that the hands Lloyd suggests.

Anyway i decide to fold. I've still 9k left and its early on in a deepstack game and i dont think having 9k affects my chances of winning the tournie. Calling was out of the question and i didnt want to be saying in the bar that i knew i was behind but i had a set...

So the turn brings a 6c. Pot is now 8k+ and BB bets 400 :eek: other dude makes a call. River is a fourth club and the BB goes allin. The MP dude folds 55 and BB mucks his hand. He must have had AcKx, AcQc, AcJc..that was my initial thought.

In the 2nd hand, i didnt even make the call for 700 as i felt it was wasted money but had this hand happened an hour later, i would have bet the hand harder (even though i think i bet it hard enough) because he seemed like a bit of a tool.

good read Tony - nice laydown...

BigCityBanker

I dont think I could ever get away from that situation against random players intact. Fair play Tony.

Flushdraw

Almost had a deja-vu of the 2nd hand just a couple of mins ago...

GAME #932380868: Texas Hold'em NL Tournament 2007-04-30 18:36:46
Table 62369704 (Tournament: $3,000 Guaranteed Buy-In: $7+$0.70)
Seat 1: Azetae1 ($3,060.00 in chips)
Seat 3: belemonth ($21,225.00 in chips)
Seat 4: Richacer ($5,320.00 in chips)
Seat 5: Anselmus ($3,865.00 in chips)
Seat 6: MARSJACK ($3,457.50 in chips)
Seat 7: TTT51168 ($9,925.00 in chips)
Seat 8: Flushdraw888 ($8,400.00 in chips)
Seat 9: giianca ($5,115.00 in chips) DEALER
Seat 10: lloydtheboy ($4,945.00 in chips)
lloydtheboy: Post SB $150.00
Azetae1: Post BB $300.00
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Flushdraw888 [H5 C5]
belemonth: Call $300.00
Richacer: Fold
Anselmus: Call $300.00
MARSJACK: Fold
TTT51168: Call $300.00
Flushdraw888: Call $300.00
giianca: Fold
lloydtheboy: Fold
Azetae1: Check
*** FLOP *** [S7 S5 C6]
Azetae1: Bet $300.00
belemonth: Call $300.00
Anselmus: Call $300.00
TTT51168: Call $300.00
Flushdraw888: Raise $4,800.00
Azetae1: Fold
belemonth: Fold
Anselmus: Fold
TTT51168: Fold
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $7,650.00 Rake $0.00
Flushdraw888: wins $7,650.00

Goodluck2me

smurph wrote:

I would call the 3.5k and if there is a brick on the turn move all in.

this is really bad advice imo, if a brick falls, your positions hasnt changed yeah, so why not push now and get the flush draws in there aswell? if you think your ahead push, if you think your behind fold. dont call and then push, its a really bad habit and although it lowers variance its not as profitable - someone else im sure can explain it better.

Thats a tought fold tony, im probably shipping it like Flynn here but if you go with your gut you can argue, also did he SHOW 55?

smurph

goodluck2me wrote:

this is really bad advice imo, if a brick falls, your positions hasnt changed yeah, so why not push now and get the flush draws in there aswell? if you think your ahead push, if you think your behind fold. dont call and then push, its a really bad habit and although it lowers variance its not as profitable - someone else im sure can explain it better.

Thats a tought fold tony, im probably shipping it like Flynn here but if you go with your gut you can argue, also did he SHOW 55?

Yeah I see your point here. I was going on the basis that you could get the flush draw off with one card to come quicker than with 2. Good point though, also great fold tony, nice that you got to see the higher set to.

Goodluck2me

smurph wrote:

Yeah I see your point here. I was going on the basis that you could get the flush draw off with one card to come quicker than with 2. Good point though, also great fold tony, nice that you got to see the higher set to.

the thing is you dont want the flush draw to fold you ahead! it reduces variance, and your profit.