Taking Firearms Abroad and the Procedure?

whupass

Hi,

I'm sure this has probabley been answered before but I can't find it. I was planning to go to england with someothers (50 ish hopefully!) to play paintball --waitwaitwait, I know there is a airsoft/paintball forum, please bear with me -- as you might know paintball guns are firearms in Ireland and thus have to be treated as such when brought abroad, we were wondering (no one else knows so I'm asking you) what forms need filling in to go to England for a weekend and come back again with the markers? Aer Arrann will allow markers in hte hold, but we're getting a coach, so are going on the ferry, should we call them beforehand or just tell tehm when we are checking in?

Any help you can give is greatly appreciated! Paul

Umiq88

Im confused

You have "guns" and want to bring them to england

or

Your going to england and want to bring some "guns" back

For the first anything under 12lbs ft doesnt need to be licensed in england and thus i imagine there is no problem bringing it over provided you have and irish license

Second one if its over the limit i think all you need is a europass not sure if you still need to apply for a visitors permit think that might only be ireland.

whupass

We want to go over WITH the markers and come back again with them.

They are licensed like real guns, so do we just need to get these Europasses? Where do we get them?

rrpc

They don't require a licence in England, so you don't need anything other than your Irish Licence.

Just check with the English people you are going to first to be on the safe side.

You must inform the ferry company, and they will have to be stored on the bridge of the vessel under the captain's supervision. You'll get to see the bridge

Normally with firearms, you need to have applied to the local constabulary for a permit to bring and use firearms in their district. Usually the permit is for seven days and is issued before you leave. In those circumstances you also need a 'sponsor' to vouch for your use of the firearm in that district.

In the case of paintball guns, I don't think that's necessary as they are not 'on cert' in England.

FLAG

FYI

Paint ball guns are not certified in Ireland , posession of same however requires an authorisation issued by the local superintendent, I do not think they even have serial numbers.

Best thing to do is discuss this with the super before you bring them back.

whupass

FLAG is right, we have authorisations for our markers, technically we need removal forms to take them out of the district of the Superintendant who signed the letter, but when I got mine I asked the FO about going to tourneys abroad and he said it should be fine.

O.K. so the jist is, you need to tell the ferry company beforehand and have it stored by them. We may need a Europass, but might not becasue markers need no license in the UK. We may need a 'sponser'.

Sparks

FLAG wrote:

FYI
Paint ball guns are not certified in Ireland , posession of same however requires an authorisation issued by the local superintendent, I do not think they even have serial numbers.

That'll be news to the few individuals in Ireland who have licenced paintball markers...

whupass

Ok I've had no luck looking for information on a Europass on the Interweb, anybody know of links? I called the lcal Guards today but they said to call back tomorrow night at 10pm.

rrpc

You don't need a europass for markers.

Here's the situation:

When travelling you need:

• Your local firearms cert (Irish)
• A foreign firearms permit (for the country(ies) you are travelling through/to)
• A Europass, if the country(ies) you are travelling through/to require it.
• To notify the carrier that you are travelling with firearms.

You only need any or all of the above, if the firearm you are carrying is required to have it in the country(ies) you are travelling from and through/to.

Example: You are bringing an air rifle to England.

• You need your Irish cert for the Air Rifle.
• You don't need a cert (or permit) for the UK as air rifles are off-cert in the UK.
• You don't need a europass as the English don't recognize it.
• You need to notify the carrier.

I don't know what the situation is for paintball guns in the UK, but I'd imagine they're off-cert like air guns.

I would check that with the people you are going over to just to make sure.

FLAG said that paintball guns need an authorisation here. An authorisation is not a firearms cert. You won't be able to get a europass for a firearm on an authorisation. Europasses are for firearms cert holders.

Clear?

Sparks

rrpc wrote:

FLAG said that paintball guns need an authorisation here.

Yes, but he was incorrect. Most paintball markers here are held on authorisation, but not all. They're just like any other firearm, legally. Those who have them on authorisations mostly get the authorisation instead of the licence because it's less hassle, it's cheaper and they don't tend to go to international competition much, so there's no real benefit to them to have a licence (there's a lesson about the current licencing system in there somewhere, methinks...)
Some, however, do have the licence and for them, it's just as you described.



(The things you learn mod'ing a paintball&airsoft forum...)

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

Yes, but he was incorrect. Most paintball markers here are held on authorisation, but not all. They're just like any other firearm, legally. Those who have them on authorisations mostly get the authorisation instead of the licence because it's less hassle, it's cheaper and they don't tend to go to international competition much, so there's no real benefit to them to have a licence (there's a lesson about the current licencing system in there somewhere, methinks...)
Some, however, do have the licence and for them, it's just as you described.

Yes, but Whupass said he had an authorisation, which means that he's also going to need a removal order to take them to blighty.

It goes back to a previous comment I made to you about the whole removal order business being so badly set up. In theory Whupass also needs a removal order to take the markers back from the district he's taken them to, however because the UK doesn't do removal orders, the whole thing falls flat.

It's a completely ridiculous system, Gardaí admit this, as mostly removal orders are issued one-way, and the return journey is never authorised. In theory, there are thousands of DURC firearms in Rathdrum!

Sparks

It's worse than that rrpc - in theory, you need a removal order to take firearms from one garda district to any other - so from DURC to Comber would be a dozen or so removal orders, then another dozen or so to get back, and it's worse again because garda districts change with time - a garda station closes at 8pm, say, and then their district is subsumed into a larger one until it opens at 9am the next morning - so your paperwork needs in theory fluctuate according to what time of day it is...

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

It's worse than that rrpc - in theory, you need a removal order to take firearms from one garda district to any other - so from DURC to Comber would be a dozen or so removal orders, then another dozen or so to get back, and it's worse again because garda districts change with time - a garda station closes at 8pm, say, and then their district is subsumed into a larger one until it opens at 9am the next morning - so your paperwork needs in theory fluctuate according to what time of day it is...

Not quite. A district is managed by a Super, and all districts are 24 hour. Rathdrum is in Wicklow district, which would issue removal orders if Rathdrum was closed.

Sparks

Actually, no - it was the basis of a legal case taken a few years back, from what I remember, by a major firearms dealer in Ireland (I think it was Ardee Sports, but I could be mistaken). Their argument was that with the districts being subsumed regularly, they should just apply to one "uber-district" chap and be done with it.
I'm given to understand - though again I could be mistaken here, and I'm trying to be careful because I don't want to say people are doing something illegal - that the whole removal orders system is basicly not used when it comes to firearms dealer stuff as a result of this.

civdef

Dealers generally have an open removal order permit.

civdef

Or am I thinking of imports?

Now that I think of it, removal orders used to arrive now and again, batched and generally a good while after the guns themselves.

ion c

Ireland is the ONLY country that classfies a paintball marker as a firearm, as the gun laws here are backward and very much out-dated. you do not need any permit to travel with your marker. Aerlingus is the only airline however that i am 100% certain that they will not mention anything so long as its not in your hand luggage. just stick a copy of facefull or PGI in with it and your jersey on top.....
Hope this helps

Sparks

you do not need any permit to travel with your marker.

You bloody well do unless you have a firearms cert, which acts as that permit within the country...

ion c

ion c wrote:

Ireland is the ONLY country that classfies a paintball marker as a firearm, as the gun laws here are backward and very much out-dated. you do not need any permit to travel with your marker. Aerlingus is the only airline however that i am 100% certain that they will not mention anything so long as its not in your hand luggage. just stick a copy of facefull or PGI in with it and your jersey on top.....
Hope this helps

I know a good barrister - keep his number on speed-dial when you try and get through the airport

ditpaintball

Sparks wrote:

You bloody well do unless you have a firearms cert, which acts as that permit within the country...

Agrees with sparks.
And it is aer areann i believe, not aer lingus that gave that info.

Also PGI is a paintball mag for those of you who are wondering.

Hopefully the whol issue of marker status will be cleared up once and for all when the IPPA (irish paintball players association) tackles the new government.

back on topic. any more info whupass?

les45

Lads , whatever about flying to the UK with firearms , which I gather paintball markers are ! ,on arrival back at Dublin , the sporting firearms will be collected off the plane and brought to Customs . Each member of the group will be asked for their Irish Firearms Permit and the serial number will be checked off against the firearm. This has being my experience over the last 3 years travelling in and out of Dublin , no problems whatsoever with Aer Lingus or Irish Customs , but for heavens sake have your paperwork in order , and a transit case for the marker / firearm .

Sparks

This has being my experience over the last 3 years travelling in and out of Dublin

Wow. We've never encountered anything so well-organised ourselves, we usually just picked up our cases from the conveyor belt and went home!
Now getting out of Dublin or Heathrow, that was fun...

Yeah - I shut down the baggage wheely thing by accident.. Aer Lingus changed the policy on ammo and the desk girl got it wrong! Cue alarms in the loading bay!! Was quite funny when my heart started working again.

les45

We may be the select few , on arriving in Oslo last November ,we presented ourselves to Customs with all our paperwork , " Have you your Europass and match Invite "? yes was my reply , " Have a nice weekend in Norway ." and that was it. I would still present at customs on arriving back in Dublin.

whupass

Ok I called the local station (Stepaside) and the FO who organised the authorisation for me said we would usually need a Europass but that with an authorisation he didn't know, he's off to the DOJ next chance he gets to ask again (he asked for me when I first got the authorisation but got no reply)

ion c

Many people have gone to/from ireland with paintball markers in their luggage on aerlingus. No questions where EVER asked. I rang aerlingus and the only thing they said was to ensure the air tank was stored in such a way that it cannot be filled with air ie with the reg unscrewed. And again sparks in ireland yes you need a cert. However to travel to england, germany, france etc... you don't need any cert. as long as your marker is in your bag and your to openly carring it around no police officer will bother you.

As for the Topics of Certs at the moment the guards are demanding all markers be fitted with a fixed stock. The stocks you can buy for A-5, 98's etc are NOT considered fixed. You have to weld them on to your markers body. For us Speedballers out there that is a ludacris requirement as it would handicapp our game in a way comparable to tieing a goalie arms behind his back.

Sparks

Many people have gone to/from ireland with paintball markers in their luggage on aerlingus. No questions where EVER asked.

That only means that the aer lingus staff encountered weren't trained in firearms legislation (a somewhat unshocking scenario). It does not mean it was legal, it just means you got lucky and were not caught.