Is a classic car business viable in Ireland?

gn3dr

Thinking a lot about this recently.

Do we have a large enough market for a good classic car specialist (sales, restoration etc.)

Seems like a lot more people are getting into the scene but I think a lot more would take the plunge if there was a "non-rip" off support network of businesses here


What do people think?

corktina

having put a toe in this water myself I should say yes, if you are somewhere near to Dublin.Otherwise there arent enough people around.

There is a HUGE demand out there for a good reliable painter and welder not to mention chroming and upholstery.

I would put an awful lot of work your way if you go ahead....all my 7 cars need something....

mike65

This could be a long thread!

I think there is room and indeed places do specialise sometimes quite big often a handful of cars at anyone time. The trick I guess is to know the market and not to overcommit. No point in buying in a few Ferraris when some classic Mercs and MGs will shift faster. Sales is of course easier than service/resortation as the latter requires some actual talent!

Mike.

DublinWriter

gn3dr wrote:

What do people think?

I think it's very niche, you'd really want to love it to do it.

I always thought it would be a very good business proposition to open a panel beating chain/franchise.

MercMan Ben

Hi guys,

there is always a place on the market for people, who know what they are doing, no matter where your interest lie.
Restoring a classic car, however, requires a whole hand full of skills an knowledge. During my time in the business I have seen cars, that had been "restored", that made my eyes water - and not of joy :-)

If you know your stuff and if you have a passion for classics, go for it!

Benjamin

bo-bo

definitely - dont forget, people are willing to travel for the right service and ireland isnt really that big a country

dubtom

I'd say yes, it would be nice to go somewhere that wasn't frightened off just because they had never worked on that particular brand before, in my case a Mustang, and assumed that parts etc couldn't be got.Judging by the amount of calls I've had for my car recently classic sales seem to be centered around sunny weather and the maturity of ssia's. The attendances at citywest seems to say that there is a huge interest in this country in classics,whether it be buying or looking, the interest is certainly there.

FiSe

From my point of view - spraypainter - people aren't mature enough, yet, to appriciate good work. Talking about money, of course.
What's the point of spending two years on restoration of motorbike, polishing every nut and bolt and then use aerosols instead of paying €500 for perfect mirror like finish to make it shine. Have to say this was a decent price for airbrushed flame job over deep red metalic /bare metal respray/.

And from the other hand, it's much easier to go and buy finished classic instead of putting effort and money into this "old piece of junk" from backyard. Nowadays there's no problem to buy rust free, let say, beetle from Australia or California in very good condition...

rebel.ranter

A friend of mine used to specialise in BMW parts, he has given up the business now. He thought that in order to do it properly you would have ot invest a lot of money in getting the whole thing set up correctly, proper stock reporting, pricing systems etc. The Irish market is not big enoough to justify the investment required to do it properly, well that's what he thought about the whole thing anyway.
I would imagine the classic car restoration business would be a similar scenario. I used to be big into the VW Beeltes & I remember from those days the only decent, stand-out, "restored" Beetles were the ones that were restored by their owners over a protracted period of time. It takes a certain amount of dedication, time & patience, I don't think that it is feasible to conduct a business with the level of commitment required. IMHO People are unwilling to pay the money required to allow you invest the time required.
It is a bit of a dream job though, I really do prefer older cars.

Eric318

I think that successful classic car businesses are those who can cater for the premium market, where margins are high because the client is more interested in the (perceived) quality of the result than the cost of the product/service. Others rely on volume and Ireland is too small for that.

You would have several options

- go niche, like be the best US V8 mechanic and eventually take on other brands, but your income will be limited by the number of hours in the day as I soon as you will employ others, you may loose on quality and if you raise prices clients will walk away...

- be an aggregator of others' specialists services: mechanics are plentiful, so are painters, electricians, tire fitters etc. You do the sales, the finishing and the packaging. Here you rely heavily on the quality of your partners, but you stand a chance to catch all the money available and grow big

In any case, to live you may need to do sales and resales. Storage and maintenance may also bring in money and provide a captive clientèle... When the Jag does not start next spring, the best way to get it started is to pay you right? Then you need PLENTY of space.

Go for high end and resist catering for the DIY classic owner... sad to say (for the likes of me) but he spends no money Ireland is now awash with cash bursting from the pockets of a substantial and growing number of rich people. After houses and boats and schools and 4x4s, they will buy entertainment cars (but they have to be really fancy AND work). A bit of PR at well chosen events in strategic places. You may need substantial capital and a strong partner: franchise from Chelsea Cars in London?

I could be interested in investing (modestly and if the Business Plan is sound). Others here may also.

mike65

I could be interested in investing (modestly and if the Business Plan is sound). Others here may also.

Funny you should mention that!

Mike.

FiSe

Well, your biggest problem would be to find some mechanics, painters, tyre fitters, upholsterers, etc. who would be actually willing and able to work on highest standarts all the time, resourcing parts and constantly learning... You basically need the best people, who are scattered all arond the country.
Then, if you find them, logistic could be big big problem. And you will need substancial financial reserves to pay them as their work is finished.
My opinion

folkswagen

there is a huge market out there - it is very specialised and I agree that yes you must be passionate about what you do and also very qualified, experienced and professional - my husband set up business this year in the classic vw area - restoration work - he is an experienced panel beater who has built up a collection of his own classic vw's which he has restored - his hobby and passion has become his career - and the work comes from all corners of the country.

I feel that it is very specialised and in most cases needs to be brand specific too with regards to bodywork and mechanics. Areas like upholstery and auto-electrics just need to be classic specific imho:)

junkyard

I ran a classic car restoration and sales business side by side with my modern car end of things and the classic side lost money every time. In my experience people are unrealistic and don't want to pay the price for quality work. I still do work for about twenty people who own classics and have a collection of cars but these people are willing to pay, are prepared to wait and appreciate what your doing for them. As your main source of income ? forget it, people will break your heart, your spirit and ultimately your bank balance.

Alfasudcrazy

I investigated the market for classic car storage (indeed any car storage) around here (Kerry) and found again that there is no demand at the prices you would have to charge for the service. :rolleyes:

RoundyMooney

From what I hear anecdotally, I'd have to agree with Junkyard, (and not for the first time ).

That said though, a good tradesman (be it painter, mechanic, or comination of the above-as in marque specialist) will always do well, but the problem is building up the name, time is the biggest commodity IMHO.

The unrealistic expectations of Joe and Josephine Soap are an occupational hazard for anyone providing a commercial (or other) service.

My own feeling on it is, you have to love the work, and you have to be assured of the custom, during the set up period at least.

Classics seem to sell steadily here, but compared to the UK, not on the same scale, despite the amount of affordable income that's supposed to be floating around.

folkswagen

I think we are all in agreement here - my hubbie combines the classic single marque business with regular modern autorefinishing - a combination of head and heart business:)

mike65

I suspect most (like me) would stay clear of service/restoration and stick to sales.

Mike.

junkyard

Even sales is a headache tbh, wrong colour, wrong spec, its not good enough or its too expensive and then there's the after sales warranty and the like. Believe me you don't even want to go there.:(

folkswagen

mike65 wrote:

I suspect most (like me) would stay clear of service/restoration and stick to sales.

Mike.

I think they are very separate and there is a demand for both not keen on the sales side of things - occasionally have to thin out the private stock though:D

MercMad

Sales needs a lot of investement though, firstly to buy the cars then to store them !

I have a limited interest in working on old cars, I only do the ones I like and know best, but I still get lots of folk calling me up and asking me to do jobs on various other makes. Having turned away plenty of folk I know there is a market out there for service and repair. Most classic cars are not terribly complex, there are obviously certain exceptions to every rule this is where some experience or skill is rerquired !

That is quite different to restoration which requires significant skill and attention to details, not to mention prior knowledge of the marque involved. Again what we really need are bodywork specialists, folk who are enthusiastic about Classics as oppossed to folk who want to make a killing on modern car crash repair !

NEVCC

Id have to agree with junkyard.. People don’t know what good work is ,if the paint job looks good never mind the 2 tone of filler underneath. When you tell them the price to do the job right with all new metal they laugh :mad: and go to the guy with the filler… :rolleyes:

--amadeus--

I was hoping I wouldn't have to agree but I think I might...

I've gone a bit further and I am actually doing a bit of a feasibility study on the whole thing. I have taken in and sold one car, am bringing in a second and I have a third advertised on a brokerage basis (currently in the UK).

Now as any of you who have taken a car in freom the UK will know it's neither cheap nor easy. I cost it as at least €750 per trip. That's flights, overnight accom, train or whatever to teh car, petrol, ferry, insurance and so on. When it's back there is then €100 or so in taxes, then you spend another €100 advertising it everywhere, getting a new set of plates and teh various incidentals (this is assuming it doesn't need to be serviced). (Now if the business was proven viable they'd be shipped back for considerably less)

But if you drive it home yourself to make any kind of a decent profit you need to be marking up your sales price by a minimum of €2,000 (which is what I have put on teh brokerage sale), and assuming you'll be negotiated down by €500 or so. This would leave you with maybe €500 - 600 profit for probably the guts of a weeks work (finding, traveling, registering and selling).

What e-mail did I get this morning? A very aggressive one from someone who had seen teh original advert and sales price, ranting about "rip off Ireland" and railing against the ridiculous margin I had put on teh car! The fact that it is the second cheapest of it's type advertised (and teh cheapest that falls into the classic category) didn't seem to enter into it - by making a profit I was "ripping him off"

I still think that direct imports and re-sales may be viable (and I am working on a business plan so if anyone wants to give me a shout on funding please do) but the anti-business attitude over here still shocks me!

/rant

junkyard

If it was viable I'd still be doing it, you won't make a profit, that's the bottom line. I'm giving you a bit of friendly advice here, its not as if your going to be opposition to me, I no longer do it commercially because it doesn't pay.

8~)

I've considered getting into the business on a limited scale and reckon it's too much trouble.

Amadeus, I think the problem you have (and your friendly emailer too) is that many individuals are buying bangers from ebay.co.uk or elsewhere, bringing them home and hoping to sell them on at silly margins. I'm sure we've all seen the ads.

PaulK_CCI

--amadeus-- wrote:

I was hoping I wouldn't have to agree but I think I might...

I've gone a bit further and I am actually doing a bit of a feasibility study on the whole thing. I have taken in and sold one car, am bringing in a second and I have a third advertised on a brokerage basis (currently in the UK).

Now as any of you who have taken a car in freom the UK will know it's neither cheap nor easy. I cost it as at least €750 per trip. That's flights, overnight accom, train or whatever to teh car, petrol, ferry, insurance and so on. When it's back there is then €100 or so in taxes, then you spend another €100 advertising it everywhere, getting a new set of plates and teh various incidentals (this is assuming it doesn't need to be serviced). (Now if the business was proven viable they'd be shipped back for considerably less)

But if you drive it home yourself to make any kind of a decent profit you need to be marking up your sales price by a minimum of €2,000 (which is what I have put on teh brokerage sale), and assuming you'll be negotiated down by €500 or so. This would leave you with maybe €500 - 600 profit for probably the guts of a weeks work (finding, traveling, registering and selling).

What e-mail did I get this morning? A very aggressive one from someone who had seen teh original advert and sales price, ranting about "rip off Ireland" and railing against the ridiculous margin I had put on teh car! The fact that it is the second cheapest of it's type advertised (and teh cheapest that falls into the classic category) didn't seem to enter into it - by making a profit I was "ripping him off"

I still think that direct imports and re-sales may be viable (and I am working on a business plan so if anyone wants to give me a shout on funding please do) but the anti-business attitude over here still shocks me!

/rant

Well this is an interesting thread indeed. Amadeus, your post is spot on! I have been doing the same thing but I get my cars from the Netherlands/Belgium and Germany, and indeed my markup is generally 2k from the original sale price... which may seem a lot, but as you so well break it down for us all to see, once all the costs are added up, there;s not a whole lot left.... But still I too get flack from punters if they see the original car advertised somewhere else. However, I always give the buyer the option to come over and collect the car themselves, and as it states on the website, anyone can knock off 1k of any of the prices if they were to come over and drive the car over themself. However, after looking at what is involved, most people are not interested and want the complete package. Also most people that contact me, wouldn't be interested in it in the first place, because ultimately if they were to do it all by themselves, they wouldn't be getting in touch with me to find them a car, they'd be trawling the internet, e-bay and what have you, themselves to find that real 'bargain'

The only reason why I am still running the business as it is since 1996 (!!!), is because I run it next to my regular occupation as a free-lance translator. The Classic Cars are a steady supplement to my income, but on its own, I would'nt even be able to pay my mortgage with it :-) Purely because it's such a joy to deal with classics, which has been a passion for me since I was a wee lad, I have been continuing with the business and will continue with it as long as it's financially not costing me more than it's bringing in.

So my thoughts are, that the selling of Classics in Ireland is only viable if it;s done next to an existing occupation unless you have a large financial pool to keep you afloat for a long time, but the Restoration/Repairs/Servicing of classics I think, would be an area where there is still huge demand and could be run on an exclusive basis, BUT this must be backed up by proper workmanship and quality of service!!!!

--amadeus--

8~) wrote:

Amadeus, I think the problem you have (and your friendly emailer too) is that many individuals are buying bangers from ebay.co.uk or elsewhere, bringing them home and hoping to sell them on at silly margins. I'm sure we've all seen the ads.

You're bang on - there's that thread about the Pug (or Renault?) that was bought for £500 and is now advertisied at heavy money. The catch is that bringing in a €500K Ferrari or a €500 banger costs roughly the same. However the % markup on a €500K car needed to make it profitable is a darn site smaller than the % needed on a banger. So that then begs the question is there enough of a market for high end classics? Now high end doesn't have to mean madly hig end - 20K sales proce would equate to 10% margin on a 2K markup, which is I think is resonable.

That said Paul has a lot more experience of this than most of us so I'm drifting towards the same line as himself and Junkyard - great as a money making hobby but not as a sole source of income.

mike65

there's that thread about the Pug (or Renault?) that was bought for £500 and is now advertisied at heavy money.

Latest on that here!

Mike.