Securing a training contract

kronsington

i was just what people's experiences have been like for this. i finished my last 2 fe-1s back in march and have no luck whatsoever getting an apprenticeship and have been pretty much trying constantly since last november. i know its a very difficult process, pretty demoralising at times. also, lots of people say use any contacts you might have but i dont really want it to come to that and my contact situation is very bad. anyway, if anyone has any good advice on how to secure a training contract with a firm or has anything they want to share on the forum, go for it

morbo

Not to pry or anything, but I know a lot of people do get turned down on the basis of their degree marks. That could be the problem. You have passed all of the FE-1’s, but this just means you have passed the Law Society minimum that everyone else has to as well, so the only thing that sets you apart in an employers eyes is your degree.

If you are only applying to big firms, you may want to try a few smaller ones.

Where are you from? If’ you’re from a city, try looking at little towns around the county, or in another county. You could try looking for a contract in a small town solicitors office it worst comes to worst, and then try to get into a bigger firm later based on the experience gained there. My friend got a job in some office in West Cork (Bantry I think?), did 2 years there, and got a job with Arthur Cox in Dublin after that. He was basically a big fish in a small pond. He was the only solicitor under 40 in the whole town or something ridiculous like that.

You could try to get into one of the legal related graduate entry programs, such as the KPMG one, then use that experience to move on later.

You could consider doing an LL.M. (or the LL.B. in UCC, which is slightly less than an LL.M.) if it is a grades related issue. Getting a good mark in that would bring you up in the eyes of an employer, and you would be capable of working straight out of college in May as you already have the entrance exams done.

You could also look into practicing in England and Wales. Not sure if you’re considered a solicitor yet, but it may only be a case of sitting the QLTT for their Law Society, rather than having to pay £5,000 to do an LPC course there. You might try applying for internships at law firms in the US. Boston, NY, Chicago, Washington, all good places that have loads of firms that do give out internships. That might just make a prospective employer here take a second look over your CV.

You could also do the Kings Inns exams and see if you have better luck as a barrister. Also, you could just get the BL qualification, and a solicitors firm may wish to take you on as an apprentice purely so they can stick ‘X & Associates: Solicitor-at-Law & Barrister-at-Law’ on their window. But I do know a guy whose mother couldn’t get an apprenticeship as a solicitor years ago, so she did the BL course in Kings Inn, and then she was basically hot property.

I’m still only a student, but I’m just trying to help out. Hope some of my suggestions are good for you. And good luck!

morbo

Also, you might consider doing a few summer classes in law? I know that UCC runs a 6 week course on e-Law, and NUI Galway does a summer course about the ‘International Criminal Court’. The UCC one counts as credits that you can claim as part of your degree (6 credits in total). Not sure about the Galway one? That might make you more appealing to an employer.

Reckon So

Don't give up, you'll get one eventually. Having the fe1s behind you is great. You should try and get as much work experience as you can, even if it's unpaid. Firms look on work experience very favourably. It shows that you are serious about wanting to be a solicitor and know what it involves.

You didn't say whether you have had interviews. Have you? If so then maybe on paper you have what's required but are lacking interview skills. You could do a class coaching you in how to do a good interview.

If you haven't got any interviews then maybe there is something missing on your CV, try to identify what it is.

dermot_sheehan

morbo wrote:

You could also do the Kings Inns exams and see if you have better luck as a barrister. Also, you could just get the BL qualification, and a solicitors firm may wish to take you on as an apprentice purely so they can stick ‘X & Associates: Solicitor-at-Law & Barrister-at-Law’ on their window. But I do know a guy whose mother couldn’t get an apprenticeship as a solicitor years ago, so she did the BL course in Kings Inn, and then she was basically hot property.

Just as an aside, the code of conduct for the Bar prohibits a Barrister from working in a Solicitors office or even having an office in a Solicitor's office. To convert to a solicitor you have to first get yourself disbarred before going on the roll of solicitors.

johnnyskeleton

Follow Reckon So's golden rule:

Reckon So wrote:

You should try and get as much work experience as you can, even if it's unpaid. Firms look on work experience very favourably. It shows that you are serious about wanting to be a solicitor and know what it involves.

My two cents of general advice is this: if you are passionate about a particular area find a firm in that area, get an interview/work experience with them and chat the ear off your interviewer/supervisor.

If you ultimately want to be a conveyancing/tax/criminal/family etc lawyer, go to a firm that specialises in that area. While the big firms pay lots of money and undoubtedly look better on a CV, do what you like rather than what you think should be expected of you.

You can also try the Legal Aid Boards (maily family, landlord & tenant etc) or the Chief State/Chief Prosecution Solicitors' offices if the idea of working for the state appeals to you...

morbo

gabhain7 wrote:

Just as an aside, the code of conduct for the Bar prohibits a Barrister from working in a Solicitors office or even having an office in a Solicitor's office. To convert to a solicitor you have to first get yourself disbarred before going on the roll of solicitors.

You do have to choose between working as a solicitor or a barrister, but having a qualification in both doesn’t stop you from advertising that fact. It just looks impressive to the general public. They see a row of windows, all saying solicitor, solicitor, solicitor, then they come across one saying solicitor and barrister, and they think “Great! That’s the guy for me!” That’s why I said a solicitor may wish to hire you just so he can stick ‘Barrister-at-Law’ on his window.

If you complete the BL in Kings Inn, you have the degree of Barrister-at-Law, whether or not you practice at the bar is irrelevant. Plenty of people have an MD and work as lecturers in a Medical College, and never actually practice as a ‘real’ doctor, but it doesn’t stop them from advertising themselves as Dr. X, MD. I've got a B.Sc. (in computer science) and I'm going to find away to market myself as a Scientist-at-Law if it's the last thing I do! LOL

KPMG is notorious for paying for its workers to go to the Kings Inns, purely so they can be seen to have loads of ‘Barristers’ on staff. I just mentioned it as an idea both; to kill time while looking for an apprenticeship, and to gain a really valuable accreditation that will really stand to you in practice.

dats_right

I was lucky found a TC with relative ease (no contacts, relations or anything like that either!), I just posted about ten cv's + covering letter every couple of days for a couple of weeks, I didn't bother to personalise the letters or cv's, although obviously changed the name and address of the various firms.

I also registered on the Law Society Pre-Apprenticeship Register or whatever it is called. I sent out just over 60 cv's and within the first three weeks had been offered two jobs. The first was not an apprenticeship but rather a clerking type position, within a few days of that I had however, been offered an apprenticeship with a different firm, which I duly took! Since then a few firms, maybe 3 or 4, have contacted me on the basis of those 60 or so cv's and my entry on Law Soc register, but of course I have had to turn down those interviews.

OP, have you got your heart set on a top 10 firm or a certain area/region or something like that? If not, get your hands on a law directory and just start banging the auld cv's out! You'll get there in the end. In addition to both sending out unsolicted cv's and registering with the law soc, keep an eye on the Irish Times and Law Soc Gazette (available on their site) there is sometimes apprenticeships advertised in those. Also and importantly, try get some legal experience, even if it is only photo-copying or running errands around the central office, land registry or stamping office it is well worthwhile.

Good luck.

PS. Coming into the summer isn't generally the best time to get an apprenticeship, although there are of course exceptions to that. For the smaller/ some medium firms the best time to go looking is just after the ppc1 starts and they've lost their apprentice for a few months and there is nobody in the office willing to be an all-round dogsbody. Panic sets in and lots of firms recruit another willing body to take over the reigns!

dK1NG

morbo wrote:

KPMG is notorious for paying for its workers to go to the Kings Inns, purely so they can be seen to have loads of ‘Barristers’ on staff. I just mentioned it as an idea both; to kill time while looking for an apprenticeship, and to gain a really valuable accreditation that will really stand to you in practice.

erm... isnt that just because they are in need of in-house legal counsel??

to kill time at a cost of €12k plus living expenses in dublin for a year, not to mind the time spent doing the entrance exams??:eek:

Stirling

Again just a request for information but do you have any idea in what type of firm/area of law you want to work in?

I think the idea of mailshotting standard issues CVs without targetting them and your covering letter towards the firm in question just doesn't work because of the number of people applying for Training Contracts. You need to make the most of everything you have in terms of academics and in terms of work experiences but not in a general sense you HAVE to be constantly aware of what makes you attractive from the point of view of that particular firm.

Do you have a Law or Non-Law related academic background by the way because I think both of these have to be promoted in a different way

Orchard Rebel

gabhain7 wrote:

Just as an aside, the code of conduct for the Bar prohibits a Barrister from working in a Solicitors office or even having an office in a Solicitor's office. To convert to a solicitor you have to first get yourself disbarred before going on the roll of solicitors.

That said, non-practising barristers can be found working in some of the larger Dublin legal firms. Whilst they cannot attain partnership, some have been granted the status of "consultant".

On the apprenticeship point, the secret is to be tenacious and adaptable. Don't rule out working in-house, apprentices can be trained there too.

johnnyskeleton

morbo wrote:

You do have to choose between working as a solicitor or a barrister, but having a qualification in both doesn’t stop you from advertising that fact. It just looks impressive to the general public. They see a row of windows, all saying solicitor, solicitor, solicitor, then they come across one saying solicitor and barrister, and they think “Great! That’s the guy for me!” That’s why I said a solicitor may wish to hire you just so he can stick ‘Barrister-at-Law’ on his window.

1) As far as I'm aware, if you are a solicitor and want to go to KI, you must be struck off the roll of solicitors first; if you are a barrister and want to be a solicitior, or even work for one, you must get yourself disbarred first. So it's not just that you can't work as both, but you can't be both at the same time either.

2) Barristers cannot advertise, and calling yourself a barrister when you are not is a very ill advised course of action indeed.

dats_right

Stirling wrote:

I think the idea of mailshotting standard issues CVs without targetting them and your covering letter towards the firm in question just doesn't work because of the number of people applying for Training Contracts.

Have to disagree with you there. It worked for me and about a dozen other people I know. You sound like a HR Manager or a clone working for a Recruitment Agency. I understand and accept that conventional wisdom is that before submitting an application you should do research and specifically target and tailor your application to that firm. Yeah, I heard that a million times too and it sounds great and I'm sure in some cases it pays off. Especially, I would imagine, in relation to the top 10 or so firms, many of which have tailored application forms and advertise trainee recruitment anyway, so we're really not talking about that kind of set up.

If you want a Training Contract in a small or indeed some of the medium sized firms then your best bet is to get as many cvs out there as possible, it's a simple numbers game. More cvs = more firms who have cv on file = increased chance of getting interview. However, there is one proviso that I would add, that is your cv although generic should be top quality as should your generic letter. Besides, many of these type of firms recruit ad hoc if and when they require staff, in many cases they will just decide on the spot that they want an apprentice or your cv will arrive on somebody's desk at the right time. Either way, they are likely to call a number of people for interview (eg. last months bundle of cvs), so both the hand written letter and specifically researched brigade along with the mass mailers will get called for an interview.

I firmly believe that very few firms are going to be bowled over by a tailored application, especially if that guy/gal has had 4 different careers and a 2:2 in Marketing or somesuch over a guy/gal who scrambled together an excuse of an application and has a 1st or good 2:1 in law from UCD/TCD/UCC etc along with good work experience. And even where the candidates are equally matched, I still feel that most firms will not fall for the 'fan-club' style covering letter anyway.

In conclusion though, I suppose my main point is that securing a TC is a bit like playing the lottery the more times you play the more chances you have of winning. So Mass mailing cvs, for me, is most certainly the way forward!

grumpytrousers

Have to row in behind dats_right here...pal of mine looking for a TC...got another friend to photocopy a county or two from the law directory and he printed off a shedload of CV's. He (this was in 2002) decided that, as he was limited in funds and the amount of printing he could do at his office, to just send CVs to firms that had email addresses. His reckoning was 'they'll be a bit progressive'. He posted (not emailed) 60 CVs and got 3 calls to interview. Generic CV with a few highlights in it alright, but a standard covering letter using a Mail Merge.

As it happened, he blagged a TC with an outfit through contacts...but certainly the mailshot seemed to be working.

I'd think nowadays, you should still, by the way, POST your CV to offices...not that you asked, but while he went on the notion of them having email addresses as a criteria, he didn't actually use them!

best of luck!

GT

Stirling

Dats Right I'm not saying what you said doesn't work and I know a fair few people who have gotten away with the same thing. I'm just drawing on my own experience of how I got my TC - offers from two top four firms - and I know that what I was sending in each case involved more than purely generic information.

However as you have said that isn't really the focus of the discussion here so point taken - just the label of HR clone hurt!! :eek:

morbo

johnnyskeleton wrote:

1) As far as I'm aware, if you are a solicitor and want to go to KI, you must be struck off the roll of solicitors first; if you are a barrister and want to be a solicitior, or even work for one, you must get yourself disbarred first. So it's not just that you can't work as both, but you can't be both at the same time either.

That’s basically what I was saying, but I left out most of the detail. Solicitors must apply to have their name removed from the roll. They are not ‘struck’ from the roll, as this implies some sort of misconduct. Basically, it implies they were fired. And barristers do not get themselves ‘disbarred’; they simply step down from the Bar. Again, being disbarred would imply some ulterior reason for a change of career!

You just basically can start in one profession, and then choose to jump ship to the other. If you tend to jump back and forth quite a lot, you may find yourself being disbarred or struck from the roll, as both societies may think you are trying to screw the system and work as both.

johnnyskeleton wrote:

2) Barristers cannot advertise, and calling yourself a barrister when you are not is a very ill advised course of action indeed.

If you go to Kings Inns, you get a BL, which is a degree of ‘Barrister-at-Law’. This means that whether you are called to the bar or not you are a ‘Barrister’. I have a B.Sc. in computer science. This means I can now, and forever, advertise myself as a ‘Scientist’ despite the fact that I am now studying law, and will probably never go back to science.

Think about an MD or a Professor, when they are retired they still retain their titles. So a retired doctor is still a doctor, and a retired professor is still a professor. Once you have degree awarded to you, at whatever level it is, that academic distinction bestows a title upon you forever i.e. science grads are scientists, engineering grads are engineers, etc.

A barrister that practices at the Bar would refer to themselves as ‘A Barrister of ‘X’ years standing’. A barrister that works as an in-house counsel is simply a barrister that does not practice at the bar. They are nevertheless a barrister.

Barristers cannot advertise, yes. But they can put ‘Mr X Esquire, Barrister-at-Law’ on the window of their office, or on a door plaque, etc. the same as a solicitor. It’s not like they are putting an ad in the paper. There’s a solicitors firm in Cork City, just across Parnell’s Bridge beside the FÁS office that has ‘Solicitor-at-Law and Barrister-at-Law’ on the window. (Can’t remember the name of the firm though…)

There are plenty of lecturers in UCC and UL and other colleges that have lecturers that are not practicing barristers but still have Barrister-at-Law on their door, or even under their names in books they have written, or in other publications.

dermot_sheehan

morbo wrote:

And barristers do not get themselves ‘disbarred’; they simply step down from the Bar. Again, being disbarred would imply some ulterior reason for a change of career!

You just basically can start in one profession, and then choose to jump ship to the other. If you tend to jump back and forth quite a lot, you may find yourself being disbarred or struck from the roll, as both societies may think you are trying to screw the system and work as both.


If you go to Kings Inns, you get a BL, which is a degree of ‘Barrister-at-Law’. This means that whether you are called to the bar or not you are a ‘Barrister’. I have a B.Sc. in computer science. This means I can now, and forever, advertise myself as a ‘Scientist’ despite the fact that I am now studying law, and will probably never go back to science.

Think about an MD or a Professor, when they are retired they still retain their titles. So a retired doctor is still a doctor, and a retired professor is still a professor. Once you have degree awarded to you, at whatever level it is, that academic distinction bestows a title upon you forever i.e. science grads are scientists, engineering grads are engineers, etc.

A barrister that practices at the Bar would refer to themselves as ‘A Barrister of ‘X’ years standing’. A barrister that works as an in-house counsel is simply a barrister that does not practice at the bar. They are nevertheless a barrister.

Barristers cannot advertise, yes. But they can put ‘Mr X Esquire, Barrister-at-Law’ on the window of their office, or on a door plaque, etc. the same as a solicitor. It’s not like they are putting an ad in the paper. There’s a solicitors firm in Cork City, just across Parnell’s Bridge beside the FÁS office that has ‘Solicitor-at-Law and Barrister-at-Law’ on the window. (Can’t remember the name of the firm though…)

I'm sorry but you really don't know what you are talking about here. A practicing Barrister must apply to the Benchers of the King's Inns (notice the apostrophe as in the inns of the king) to be disbarred before going on the roll. There is no element of misconduct, but you are still disbarred, that is the term used, there is no such term as coming down from the bar!!!

You can indeed convert from one profession to another, but the process does take a while as there are some courses that Barristers must cover organised by the law society before going on the roll and vice versa, it's a process that takes several months I believe so its not something you would do every year. Regardless how many times you do it and how it affects your professional career it is not in any case a form of misconduct so can not result in the bar council or law society engaging in disciplinary procedures.



Possession of the Barrister-at-Law degree and being a barrister are two seperate things. You are a barrister if called to the Bar of Ireland and it is possible to be called to the bar of Ireland without a barrister-at-law degree (for example recipricol recognition from other jurisdictions and solicitors who go through a conversion process). If you hold yourself out as a barrister while not practicing at the bar of ireland this is potentially misrepresentation. Although there is not a specific criminal offence of holding yourself out as a barrister when not qualified as such as there is for a solicitor under the Solicitor Acts, potentially you could be held liable for fraud under s. 6 of the Fraud and Theft Offences Act 2001 if you receive any remuneration as a result of this representation.

The code of conduct for the bar includes advertising on windows. There is a ban on advertising except in circumstances as the bar perscribes by regulation. Thus someone with Barrister-at-Law on the window of a solicitors office is either violating the code of conduct of the bar (since barristers can not work in a solicitors office and are restricted in how they can advertise) or else they are misrepresenting themselves (regardless of whether they posess a BL degree).

You may call yourself a computer scientist with a B.Sc. but that is not a proper analogy since computer scientists are not a regulated profession. The example of having a BL degree but not being called to the Bar is akin to having a Medical Degree yet not being the registrar of medical doctors held by the medical council. In such a situation to hold yourself out as a doctor would be misprepresentation and indeed a specific criminal under s. 61 of the Medical Practioners Act.

Also on a side note, the use of the suffex Esquire is an american phenomenon, it is not used for qualified solicitors or barristers in Ireland or the United Kingdom.

morbo

Regarding ‘Esquire’, you should take a look at the Friary Law website. They refer to themselves and all other solicitors or barristers as ‘Mr Whoever, Esq. BL’. And I have seen plenty of barristers in Ireland us Esq. in their names. I think it’s a bit sad really. Also, you’re not supposed to use Mr. and Esq. in the same name. It’s either one or the other. Mr. is supposed to mean gentleman, Esq. is a position higher than that of gentleman. Esq. generally denotes you as the son of a nobleman.

Why don’t you make a big name for yourself by prosecuting that firm in Cork that does advertise that way? You might also want to head down to Tralee, where my friends mother practices and has both on her window, too? I’ve seen it in a few places. Does Barry Galvin have both on his window? I know he was a barrister before he became a solicitor, so maybe he does.

As I said in my first post, I’m a student and I’m just trying to help. This advertising crap is a bit of a tangent from what was originally asked. Based on all the stuff I have read in the past few weeks about barristers and solicitors both here and in England, that’s the picture I pieced together. One of my lecturers is a former barrister. He even put Barrister-at-Law in one of his books that he wrote after he had himself disbarred. Should I tell him he could be facing life in prison for such a heinous act?

Once we get rid of all those blaggards touting themselves as barristers, I think we should start into the so-called ‘Chefs’ that don’t even work in restaurants. Far to long have people been calling themselves Chefs, when all they can do is burn toast. First Chef to get locked up should be my friend’s mother. Seriously… terrible food!

dermot_sheehan

morbo wrote:

Regarding ‘Esquire’, you should take a look at the Friary Law website. They refer to themselves and all other solicitors or barristers as ‘Mr Whoever, Esq. BL’. And I have seen plenty of barristers in Ireland us Esq. in their names. I think it’s a bit sad really. Also, you’re not supposed to use Mr. and Esq. in the same name. It’s either one or the other. Mr. is supposed to mean gentleman, Esq. is a position higher than that of gentleman. Esq. generally denotes you as the son of a nobleman.

I suspect that is because many of the solicitors and barristers on the friary law website have qualified for the New York or California Bar and have thus adopted the Esq. suffex to indicate that qualification, following american custom.

Why don’t you make a big name for yourself by prosecuting that firm in Cork that does advertise that way? You might also want to head down to Tralee, where my friends mother practices and has both on her window, too? I’ve seen it in a few places. Does Barry Galvin have both on his window? I know he was a barrister before he became a solicitor, so maybe he does.

Because it is not my job to enforce the bar council code of conduct (which is a disciplinary code and is not a statute) or to hunt down people misrepresenting themselves as practicing at the bar or Ireland and receiving remuneration for that misrepresentation. The relecant bodies would be the Bar Council and/or Law Society and/or DPP if you were so concerned.

As I said in my first post, I’m a student and I’m just trying to help. This advertising crap is a bit of a tangent from what was originally asked. Based on all the stuff I have read in the past few weeks about barristers and solicitors both here and in England, that’s the picture I pieced together. One of my lecturers is a former barrister. He even put Barrister-at-Law in one of his books that he wrote after he had himself disbarred. Should I tell him he could be facing life in prison for such a heinous act?

There's nothing wrong with helping, but please accept corrections of your assertions when you are erroneous. You could tell your lecturer that he if he represents himself as a barrister if he is no longer qualified to practice at the bar, he is engaging in misrepresentation.

I'm sure he knows that dishonestly obtaining a gain or causing a loss by deception carries 5 years on indictment (pursuant to s. 6 of the fraud and theft offences act), but in this particular case the state would enver prosecute as it would be hard to show beyond a reasonable doubt that there was a gain or loss as a result of the misrepresentation or to prove the mens rea of dishonestly, (which means without good claim of right in good faith). It would nearly be impossible to convict and there would be strong public polciy reasons in not engaging in prosecution of such de minimis conduct.

Once we get rid of all those blaggards touting themselves as barristers, I think we should start into the so-called ‘Chefs’ that don’t even work in restaurants. Far to long have people been calling themselves Chefs, when all they can do is burn toast. First Chef to get locked up should be my friend’s mother. Seriously… terrible food!

I for one welcome the prosecution of fradulent traders. If someone holds himself as something he's not, and I pay him as a result of that misrepresentation, I've been defrauded. In the particular example you give there is no definition of chef however that is so watertight that would be a basis for prosecution. If someone for example held themselves out as a michelin 5 stars chef (or whatever rating system exists), and charge the relevant prices, then there would be grounds for prosecuting.

dats_right

As it happens, I favoured posting out my cv's in the traditional way too and I also made you use of mail merge, god bless mail merge I say!

Stirling, I am sorry if I hurt your feelings calling you a HR clone, it probably was a bit harsh!:D Anyway, congrats on your own successes with the big 4 firms, very impressive. With those firms though, I swould suspect that they have their own very detailed recruiment process and procedures, which probably included a very detailed and equally glossy Application pack, with nice photos and snippets of just why their firms is so much better than every other one! I would have thought that filling out their application forms was akin to writing a novel or autobiography, it depends on whether you told porkies or not I suppose.

I don't know why the whole BL, Esq, Barrister-at-Law and Solicitor thing has raised it's ugly head again (I know that BL and Barrister -at-Law are the same thing, thank you very much). But, have to agree with everything Gabhain has said regarding same. Firstly, Esq. is a title used by US admitted lawyers, I don't know of a single non-US admitted lawyer who uses that particular title in this jurisdiction, but perhaps somebody might be able to point one out. Secondly, section 51 of the Solicitors (Amendment) Act 1994, inter alia, provides that the barrister seeking admission onto the Roll of Solicitors must "[procure] himself to be DISBARRED with a view to being admitted as a solicitor". I should also say that certain posters also seem incapable of understanding the distinction between regulated professions and every other trade or job.

yournamehere

Just to wade in....:D.

I'm going to agree with Stirling and not be in favour of the whole mail merge/mass mailing of cv's but that's completely becuase I want to be in a top 5 or or 5 outside top 5 as my speciality masters is targeted in this area.


The mass mailing approach does work if you are happy to be in a small office. The thought of doing conveyancing and probate for the next twenty years would depress the crap out of me, but to each their own.

I was offered several TC's this year and I think Morbo is correct, your degree marks from an NUI/TCD are SO important in the absence of contacts, any trained monkey can pass the fe1's its simply learning by rote. If your degree marks are lacking, build up your extra-curricular profile sportswise such as tennis, rugby, swimming, hockey, sailing (displays ability to work as part of a team) or debating (good communication important for law) and get involved in some charity work.

Also do some work experience in the area where your interest lies.

Hope some of this helps

dK1NG

Stirling wrote:

Dats Right I'm not saying what you said doesn't work and I know a fair few people who have gotten away with the same thing. I'm just drawing on my own experience of how I got my TC - offers from two top four firms - and I know that what I was sending in each case involved more than purely generic information.

However as you have said that isn't really the focus of the discussion here so point taken - just the label of HR clone hurt!! :eek:

but, different considerations altogether apply to the Big 5, and even those just outside the top-tier...

it all depends on the target market - i.e small, medium or large firm.

grumpytrousers

Yeah - i mean - in my pals case, he didn't give a sh*t about where he had his apprenticeship, so long as he got to qualify as a solicitor; the reckoning being that you can always move, altho' it's obv easier move from the sticks to a big firm than vice versa...:D in his case, and in my original post, he only mailshotted the kinda firms that would have had 10 solicitors max

johnnyskeleton

grumpytrousers wrote:

you can always move, altho' it's obv easier move from the sticks to a big firm than vice versa...

While I have never had the opportunity to put this into practice, I would have thought going from a big city firm to a smaller country firm would be easier, on the basis that:

1) The big firms have good reputations, and so if you have done your TC with them it would suggest that you have had good experience, and were also very good to get in there in the first place. The execption to this, in my view, is where you do your apprenticeship with a small firm of highly specialised experts.

2) The big firms take on lots of apprentices but fewer qualified solicitors (including those at the end of their TCs). By contrast, a smaller firm may only want to take on a qualified solicitor as they might not be able to afford to put someone through blackhall.

grumpytrousers

johnnyskeleton wrote:

While I have never had the opportunity to put this into practice, I would have thought going from a big city firm to a smaller country firm would be easier, on the basis that:

1) The big firms have good reputations, and so if you have done your TC with them it would suggest that you have had good experience, and were also very good to get in there in the first place. The execption to this, in my view, is where you do your apprenticeship with a small firm of highly specialised experts.

2) The big firms take on lots of apprentices but fewer qualified solicitors (including those at the end of their TCs). By contrast, a smaller firm may only want to take on a qualified solicitor as they might not be able to afford to put someone through blackhall.

Theoretically true; but the 'vibe' of a smalltown office would be considerably different to a 'top 5' firm; somebody who's been exposed to capital market financing, shopping centre acquisitions and competition law is frig all use to somebody in Urlingford who wants somebody who can buy and sell fields and get a Grant of Probate out...and *deal* with the, er, foibles of the locals. They certainly - as far as i can gather - don't teach you that in Arthur Cox!!!

Obv people in big 5 DO conveyancing and probate, but their clients *tend* to be more bluechip than private client...

johnnyskeleton

grumpytrousers wrote:

Theoretically true; but the 'vibe' of a smalltown office would be considerably different to a 'top 5' firm; somebody who's been exposed to capital market financing, shopping centre acquisitions and competition law is frig all use to somebody in Urlingford who wants somebody who can buy and sell fields and get a Grant of Probate out...and *deal* with the, er, foibles of the locals. They certainly - as far as i can gather - don't teach you that in Arthur Cox!!!

Obv people in big 5 DO conveyancing and probate, but their clients *tend* to be more bluechip than private client...

I suppose then it's fair to say that if you start off in a small firm you will find it easier to go to another small firm, and if you start off in a big firm, you will find it easier to go to another big firm.

But purely going on CV/interview value, I think a TC with a big firm looks a lot better than a TC with a small, out of the way firm.

kronsington

thats a lot of good advice posted by everyone, thanks... my situation is basically that i dont have a law degree (Economics and Finance UCD) and my marks are good if certainly not exceptional and my legal experience is extremely limited.. ive managed to sort some short term work (summer) in a local office here in limerick which will hopefully aid me when it comes to securing my TC, preferrably in dublin...

yournamehere

I think you should work a different angle.

The funds industry and indeed the area of corporate law is one of the most sought after areas at present.

Exploit your finance background try and get some work in house in one of the big fund companies, will stand to you far more than a summer photocopying conveyancing deeds.m You have all your fe1's, IFSC companies are crying out for the mix you have....finance with law, it's an underexploited area at present.

Believe it or not your degree mixed with the FE1's will be a considerable asset.
A certain top 5 firm love finance graduates and try to reel them in to sit the tax exams so that they have a double qualification.

mr.twist

could not agree more with the above statement- the funds industry is massive at the moment and thats where the jobs are- and also regulation/compliance/listing officer is great expreience for the short term.

johnnyskeleton

Crime is also a growth area, especially if the PDs/SF go into the next government. :eek:

kronsington

good angle, i would probably not have thought of that as i have been pissed pretty much from the day i finished the exams, wouldn't know where to begin though but it seems like the best idea...

dats_right

Legal Exec/Apprenticeship role advertised on Law Society website today. Here's the link for anybody who is interested.

http://www.lawsociety.ie/displayCDAContent.aspx?groupID=150&headerID=7629&code=career_opportunities

UL_LLB

Hey guys...thanks for all the info. It's really hard to know where to start. Im just finishing my LLB in UL and by this time next year would like to be in the process of obtaining a TC...Im hoping to do the Fe1's in the next 2 sittings and Im also intending on doing an LLM in UCC, which i would probably specialise towards the commercial/corporate spectrum of practice...However, this means a whole lotta money and study (and stress) and, in all reality, will I actually be able to get a TC after doing the LLM and Fe1's!?!?!?!?!
(...my LLB degree will probably be a 2.1 aswell...not many people in law here will have 1st class hons) - Help!!! decisions decisions!

dK1NG

johnnyskeleton wrote:

Crime is also a growth area, especially if the PDs/SF go into the next government. :eek:

kronsington

ok i apologize if this is slightly off topic but since im in the process of trying to get a training contract it seemed like a logical place to put it..

basically im unsure what to do next. im sorry if i ramble a bit now. in 2005, i turned down the chance to travel the world with friends in order to start the fe-1s straight out of college (a decision i am starting to regret) and i am only now finished them (well hopefully,awaiting last 2 results). i have had no luck so far in nailing an apprenticeship, with most places responding with a standard pfo letter or that they are not considering anyone who has not passed all 8 exams. at this rate, even if i get the final two in june i wont be starting ppc 1 until at earliest august 2008. obviously, securing the training contract is the most important thing and i will continue to apply to firms ,but the thought of travel has always been on my mind and is something i would like to do now while im still young (25) and have few genuinely serious responibilities (no mortgage,kids,loans etc) rather than wait till im qualified. im based in limerick and may be able to capitalise on a contact or two which i never wanted to do but is becoming more of a realistic possibility, although my preference would be dublin. been back in limerick since i finished college in ucd and am keen to return to the capital, i guess my unhappiness in limerick and with some things in my personal life may be another reason i want to travel. i know it sounds like im whinging a bit but in my mind i know im going to be working for the next 40 odd years and may never get another chance to do something like this, im even considering doing a tefl course over the summer as maybe i could use it abroad and it would also look good on the cv. i thought by maybe describing my situation to people who are doing these exams or in a fairly similar position might be a good idea. i have explained my concerns to my family and friends but dont feel any better or am any closer to deciding what to do. i do not regret getting into law and am happy i have chosen this path, its just i feel i have screwed up the timing. most of my friends are either travelling,have travelled or working full time and i personally feel like im somewhere in between all of that. it would be great if i could secure an apprenticeship and say could i come in in april or may next year, but you just cant do that can you? i know this isn't a serious problem so i wasn't going to put this in the personal issues forum but i'd be grateful for any opinions that may help me decide what to do. i know things will become a lot clearer when the results come out (for better or for worse), but this has been on my mind now for a few months and it actually feels good to get it off my chest a bit.. its quite clear i have no long term structured plan and basically feel a bit lost at the moment. anyway, i apologise for the rambling, but it had to be done..

incidentally if i did go away i was only thinking of going for a few months, nothing outrageous,
should also point out i have not thought through thoroughly finances etc..

any thoughts welcome

Diddlina

How do you know what firms do Training Contracts? Is there a list or do you just send out your CV's with the hope that someone will take sympathy on you?

Amazotheamazing

kronsington wrote:

ok i apologize if this is slightly off topic but since im in the process of trying to get a training contract it seemed like a logical place to put it..

basically im unsure what to do next. im sorry if i ramble a bit now. in 2005, i turned down the chance to travel the world with friends in order to start the fe-1s straight out of college (a decision i am starting to regret) and i am only now finished them (well hopefully,awaiting last 2 results). i have had no luck so far in nailing an apprenticeship, with most places responding with a standard pfo letter or that they are not considering anyone who has not passed all 8 exams. at this rate, even if i get the final two in june i wont be starting ppc 1 until at earliest august 2008. obviously, securing the training contract is the most important thing and i will continue to apply to firms ,but the thought of travel has always been on my mind and is something i would like to do now while im still young (25) and have few genuinely serious responibilities (no mortgage,kids,loans etc) rather than wait till im qualified. im based in limerick and may be able to capitalise on a contact or two which i never wanted to do but is becoming more of a realistic possibility, although my preference would be dublin. been back in limerick since i finished college in ucd and am keen to return to the capital, i guess my unhappiness in limerick and with some things in my personal life may be another reason i want to travel. i know it sounds like im whinging a bit but in my mind i know im going to be working for the next 40 odd years and may never get another chance to do something like this, im even considering doing a tefl course over the summer as maybe i could use it abroad and it would also look good on the cv. i thought by maybe describing my situation to people who are doing these exams or in a fairly similar position might be a good idea. i have explained my concerns to my family and friends but dont feel any better or am any closer to deciding what to do. i do not regret getting into law and am happy i have chosen this path, its just i feel i have screwed up the timing. most of my friends are either travelling,have travelled or working full time and i personally feel like im somewhere in between all of that. it would be great if i could secure an apprenticeship and say could i come in in april or may next year, but you just cant do that can you? i know this isn't a serious problem so i wasn't going to put this in the personal issues forum but i'd be grateful for any opinions that may help me decide what to do. i know things will become a lot clearer when the results come out (for better or for worse), but this has been on my mind now for a few months and it actually feels good to get it off my chest a bit.. its quite clear i have no long term structured plan and basically feel a bit lost at the moment. anyway, i apologise for the rambling, but it had to be done..

incidentally if i did go away i was only thinking of going for a few months, nothing outrageous,
should also point out i have not thought through thoroughly finances etc..

any thoughts welcome

Go travelling and use whatever contacts you have to get a traineeship. You'll be depressed and a little surprised by just how many people in blackhall used contacts to get a training contact.

I'm based in Limerick and think it's fine, yes it's small but you have to make an effort everywhere.

I didn't go traveling prior to going into blackhall and I regret it now, am definitely taking time off after I qualify to do it, unless I can actually find work abroad.

dK1NG

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Go travelling and use whatever contacts you have to get a traineeship. You'll be depressed and a little surprised by just how many people in blackhall used contacts to get a training contact.

I'm based in Limerick and think it's fine, yes it's small but you have to make an effort everywhere.

I didn't go traveling prior to going into blackhall and I regret it now, am definitely taking time off after I qualify to do it, unless I can actually find work abroad.

gotta agree, go off on ur travels for a bit (finances permitting)

i finished my degree, done the first 4 fes, then went off on my travels for a while, before coming back and sitting the last four - best decision i ever made, and i would really have regretted not doing it!

a mate of mine turned down the chance to come with us, and has regretted it ever since; so much so that he is now taking six months out of his job to travel!

u wont regret it, and it can also look good on ur cv - if u sell it right!!!


hmm, seems to me that there must be sumit about limerick that we all want to get out of here for a bit of travel:eek: