Indoor Flying

g5hn710m4xpdwy

I was wondering is there any clubs in teh Dublin/Kildare area that fly indoors at all?
I was looking at teh indoor flying section on RC Groups and the flat ones made from depron look very easy and fun to build and fly.
And also cheap.

Also could any of you air heads [excuse the pun:D ] tell me how much it would cost to make a relivtly good indoor flyer from depron with radio gear?

trudnai

Hi,

I can't answer to the first part as I don't know clubs or places to indoor flying.

Depron is relatively cheap, sometimes you can even buy sheets in DIY shops because the same material is used underneath flooring - I could not find it here in Ireland though, except the Greenhobby model shop. If you need to buy everything you will find it very expensive, a good controller, receivers, servos, battery, charger, motor with gear box and speed controller - these are very expensive. Depending on which quality you buy I would guess around 500 - if you use an outrunner brushless motor with direct drive, LiPo battery and lightweight but fast servos. After you have these you can build depron models very cheap, if you smash it it is very unlikely that any of the expensive component would damaged especially for an indoor, so you can just remake the cheap depron body and that's it.

I'm using depron for outdoor, but I fold it to a perfect airfoil shape using a heatgun, and it's great - light and protective. I smashed it at full speed once and nothing damaged except the depron wing and fuselage and the propeller.

Regards,
Tamas

loopingfred

Well, you have the ISR who fly indoor, but only in Winter !
Last year, we flew in Gorey in an indoor GAA hall, but this year, we will have a really good location in Dublin.
I know some other guys who fly indoor, but this is rarely advertised

We build models out of depron (we stock loads !), but 500 euros for an indoor is quiet expensive I think !! You can setup a model for much less.
The Edge on the indoor section of the forum has been equiped for much less than 150 euros, plane included... Outrunner motor, lipos, servos and so on...

The forum with some pictures of the Edge : http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=6

Or if you want to go scale, here is one of my design, 100 % depron :
http://www.gliderireland.net/bojemia.htm

loopingfred

Oooppss, forgot a picture of our first indoor session last year :

g5hn710m4xpdwy

Thanks for teh replys all!
Pity I am so far away from Gorey.
But thanks for the info and where to get depron. Was actualy about to be my next question:)

500 does sounds very (very) expensive but 150 sounds like something I can butcher together in a few months. Think It is possible to get that down to about €100?

I was looking at the edge. that was exactly teh type of plane I was talking about. Would love to build something like the Bohemia B5 but seems like it would be harder, cost more and be harder to fly.

As this would be my first plane and I have never flown an RC except for a PicooZ (they rock) Is it possible to make these so that they are slow flyers? but still be able to do all the trickey stuff with out upgrading once I learn some of the more basic stuff. More imporantly - Would slow indoor flyer be good for learning?
Thanks all for the help and links.

loopingfred

No Pb !

Well, for Gorey, that was last season.. This season, we will be in Dublin for indoor.

100 Euros for motor, lipos/charger and servos...:rolleyes: Can be possible, but aim for 150 to be sure.
Learning indoor.. Well, some people do, but I'm affraid that the Irish sport hall are generally too small for that.
Add the stress to crash on the wall to the stress of flying ! Not easy !
I would not recommend a "shocky" like plane (flat plane) like the Edge to begin with (or any other.. Even a Drenalyn ! )...
If you want to stay in depron building and learn to fly.. :
http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=111 This is for you !.. Same gears as the Edge or any other shocky like planes. More what's we call "Park Flyers".

But once again, the best thing, is to approach a model club in your area and talk with people who really practice what you want to do (electrics, indoor, prkflyer), as a lot of people talk or give advice without having a clue what they are talking about... Lots of theory !
But if you have any questions, we are here (and the other guys on the gliderireland forum) to answer all your questions !

loopingfred

Ooops, forgot to mention, that like the Bohemia, they are not hard to build !
That's one of the great thing to work with depron !
And most important, don't cost more (well, you just have to add a bit more of depron.. which itself cost nothing... )

g5hn710m4xpdwy

Ah I see. And I understand about the hall not quite being big enough:rolleyes:

I really like the Piper Cub trainer. Would that be the kind of plane and I can make and my brother could make another (I wish) head off to the 15 acres in Phoinex park on a lovely day like this with little to no wind and practice to fly around slowly? I must admit. The whole idea of fast jet like planes arn't appealing to me yet.

If I was to build one of the Piper's would this be the most part of my parts list?

Depron - €?
Landing gear - €?
?*micro servos - €?
3 channel radio + receiver + chystals - €?

Thats all I can think off.... Any chance you could fill that in with a rough cost esitmate? I like cheap by the way:D

Thanks once more...

trudnai

Hi Guys,

Now I misunderstood something or bought my stuff really expensive :-) Just my controller was 150 - ok, it's definetaly not the cheapest one you can get, but not even the highest, it's one that is fully computerized, but not the one that could learn figures, can work as a PPM (FM) or a PCM (digital) transmitter, you can have model memories etc. I'm not sure how much is the cheapest one, but half of this price is highly possible - maybe you can get a used one.

With motor, well, I bought a Mega RC400 15/8, again, not the most expensive one, but you can get cheaper. Can't even remember for the price, somewhere between 30-40. Speed controller ditto - I did not buy the cheapest because if it drains the LiPo too much you ruined your battery. Also depends a lot on speed controller so that if the timings are not optimal you can't get out of the most of your engine. Charger was around 50+balancer 15-20. Battery is around 40-50 (3s1p) and it is only one, so it worth of around 10-15 minutes airtime, and then you have to charge which takes at min 1.5 hours in fast charging mode. Receiver and 4 big servos was included with the controller, however, I traded the 4 big ones to 2 small. 2 additional seros was around 30 together. Push rods, carbon rods to strengthen the wing, some wooden stuff, epoxy, carbon fibre and fibre glass cloths and loads of other small items cost you also relatively lots of money. Maybe some of those not even needed for an indoor - for example I would not put a landing gear on it. I bought so many different props as well to find out which one suits the best to my needs.

Piper Club: I have bad experience with that type, basically the wing is too much in the front, so it could be tail heavy very easily and for mine one I had to put an extra weight on the front to compensating it. I would suggest a Cessna or very similar to that.

Regards,
Tamas

loopingfred

Ooppss, my bad !
I've understood from the start that he already had a radio, transmitter... So, yes, you have to add 100 - 150 euros for the transmitter.

Depron : 20 euros
Brushless motor : 20
Controller : 20
Servos (3) : 30 or 2 if no ailerons : 20
Lipo charger : 35
Lipos, 3s1p 1700 : 30

So, that's between 145 and 155 euros to equip a trainer.

All that can be reused in an aerobatic indoor like the edge later (except for the battery... Too big, but with that one and a small brushless, you go for duration), but if you want to go bigger size or different type of flight outdoor, you will have to re-invest.

For the Piper Cub, well, I don't think the wings are too much forward.. Let's say that the nose is too short instead ! But I don't see why a Cessna will be easier to balance. All planes, and certainly all semi-scale like planes are all not easy to balance. Cessna, Piper and so on, all the same.

coolwings

Hi Flunked
I see that you want to learn to fly .

And I see that you want to do it for as little cost as possible.

And depron sounds great on account of costing very little.

The guys are answering your questions very well.

But I think you might be asking the wrong questions:
So just a couple of points here....

The vast majority of model fliers in Ireland don't fly indoors. They might have a reason you didn't consider when you looked at the cost of planes in isolation. (Walls break planes ! )

The vast majority of fliers don't use depron, experienced fliers use depron (usually). Depron is what burger cartons are made from - depron breaks very easily - and a learner will bash it particularly often, and therefore have to make many new depron models while learning. So after you stop bashing it, that is when depron is interesting, not now.

Rental on decent size indoors halls of costs. So do you really want a teeny plane that you pay for a place to fly it, only on a designated day, or would you prefer to spend a little more and get a maybe bigger plane that flies outside where the air is free, or costs less when a club of 20 - 100 people split the costs. And you can fly every day that is suitable.

Flying is about setup cost and runnning cost added together you know. If you focus too much on setup costs you will definitely buy the wrong gear, and then later you will have to buy a second time. Not so bright! Applies to both indoor and outdoor gear.

The vast majority of learner fliers pay for and get a bigger plane. This is for a good reason. Beginners always fly too far away, then they can't see it properly, then they crash. The smaller your first plane you get the more often this will happen to you! On the other hand a bigger plane can be seen better by the untrained eye ......

The factors that really matter ... you will not think of them. The local fliers solved all those problems long ago. They just fly. They already have the successful formula.

Somebody suggested earlier that you go and talk with local fliers about what they actually use most of the time. It was a good suggestion.

A hypothetical suggestion: if you wanted to learn to drive ...
would you:
A buy the cheapest car in a kit of parts, build it as best you can, use wood instead of steel because it's cheap, teach yourself, crash it lots in the learning process, sit the test each year for 10 years, paying the fees, until you eventually pass?
or would you
B buy a decent car that cost a little more (and starts), go to driving school paying your dues, passing the test first (or 2nd) time. Be driving and qualified 12-16 weeks later?

A is what you are getting ready to do with planes. Or try to do. Sounds crazy when put into car terms ... doesn't it?


Indoors flying is fun, but I don't think it is the best way to learn to fly. It is a specialist offshoot of the whole model flying hobby. My humble opinion.

trudnai

Yep, coolwings, that's actually true.

I forgot to mention that I was learning on 1.6m wingspan SPAD model with 2stroke engine. SPAD is made by another 'rubish' materia, called carbon plast. The body itself is aluminium rod or two joined together like a ladder. VERY heavy! But flies very well, not so sensitive to the side wind and VERY strong. Couple of times I smashed it to the ground very badly, once basically just dropped from 50m strait down (don't ask what has happened, I was just too beginner to remembering it or realising what was I doing wrong ) But that plane survived everything, when that carbon plast broke I just wrapped around the so called duck tape and did not even care. When the aluminium fuselage distorted I just forced it back using my bare muscles and I did not care how it looks like as long as it was doing it's job. All I wanted is airtime, to practise those 8s and landings - and later on inverted flying and even American and Immelmann turns.

Depron is the opposite, the only good thing is that depron brakes instead of your motor and when it does it takes only that 20 euros to fix. Maybe less if the damage is not so bad so you can fix it with 5 min epoxy (which of course does not mean you can fly your model after 5 minute but next day for sure).

Regards,
Tamas

loopingfred

Hey Norman,

Well, about the car example, I think in Ireland lots of people goes for the option A

For the size of the plane, I do not agree really... I was flight instructor in my club for years, and if the beginner fly far away, that's because of the instructor and no one else. I was teaching them to fly close to us, not because this is safer but that's easier to see what's the plane is doing, what ever the size of the plane. I was teaching guys with plane between 1 mtrs to 2 mtrs the same way. you have to inhib the fear of flying at decent distance from the start.
Ok, that's a bit off topic now
You can learn with a depron plane, the depron will break like a wooden plane, or the wooden plane will break like a depron one, that depend but definitively park flyer if you want to stay in that size will be preferable, not because you can't learn to fly indoor, but because the indoor halls over here are generally too small for that.

After that, the prices of the gears and stuff, it's another debat, but, by experience, the cheapest is not necesarely the crapiest, when you know what's you are buying of course. It's like kits and RTF, you have less and less bad products on the market these days.

But the best advices, will be to go on a club and see with your eyes ! Ask questions to the guys and here and make your own idea of the hobby.

coolwings

loopingfred wrote:

... about the car example, I think in Ireland lots of people goes for the option A ...

ROFL

loopingfred wrote:

... the cheapest is not necesarely the crapiest, when you know what's you are buying of course. It's like kits and RTF, you have less and less bad products on the market these days.

The SPAD idea of Truddai's is probably the cheapest way ... providing he picks a reliable design, and can build it correctly.

I would vote for speed 400 brushed with a suitable highwing or motor glider myself as the best compromise of power, size, and cost for this country.

loopingfred wrote:

...But the best advices, will be to go on a club and see with your eyes ! Ask questions to the guys and here and make your own idea of the hobby.

Definitely !

Hey Fred, seeing as this is a thread about indoors flying ... I was flying indoors last night at the Dublin Kestrel Flying Cub evening in a hall on Main St, Tallaght! A small hall too. But fine for my indoor Apache heli They also had a club computer running an Aerofly Pro DeLuxe flight simulater with the wall size screen - laid on for the members & visitors. Those new generation sims really benefit from the big screen!

Advantage of indoors flying nobody mentions ... the coffee doesn't go cold between flights! :-)
:cool:

loopingfred

coolwings wrote:

Hey Fred, seeing as this is a thread about indoors flying ... I was flying indoors last night at the Dublin Kestrel Flying Cub evening in a hall on Main St, Tallaght! A small hall too. But fine for my indoor Apache heli They also had a club computer running an Aerofly Pro DeLuxe flight simulater with the wall size screen - laid on for the members & visitors. Those new generation sims really benefit from the big screen!

Advantage of indoors flying nobody mentions ... the coffee doesn't go cold between flights! :-)
:cool:

Argl !
That was an event only for club members ? Or open for visitors too (with a fee or something ? )
I will have come and bring stuff to fly !

coolwings

It's for existing members & new-member-guests.
We chip in a fiver each, and the club takes the surplus or covers the shortfall if any.
Coffee & bickies incl!

g5hn710m4xpdwy

OK From what I am gathering. I should spend more money now and then when I want to get a another model I only have to buy the model and maybe a motor or battery?
I also see that indoor flying is not teh way to go yet but having a fly in the Phoenex park on the weekend does sound nice to me:)

I was thinking either a plane I can bring to teh park adn fly or something I can glide with aswell.

You jsut pulled me away from indoor and brought on a whole new load of questions:D

trudnai

If you never flown a plane I suggest you to practice first with a simulator on computer, then ask an instructor to help you. Sometimes an instructor has his own trainer so that you can practice on that one - it's also good for the instructor as he knows that plane very well. Also he can tell you the safety issues and loads of very good advises etc.

If you are just about to buy your stuff it's not likely you will fly it on this weekend :-) but you can still go there and you may can ask your questions there, if there is an instructor they know etc.

Good luck an keep up posting the news :-)
Tamas