Pocket Rockets Pre-Flop

Clareman

I know this has proberly been covered before, but I couldn't find anything exactly relevant, apologies in advance, and please close/delete if you see fit.

Anyway, I was playing a tournament last night, I was big blind, it was 8 handed. I see my cards, pocket rockets, I was average stack, there were 4 all-ins before me, 2 of which had me covered, I decided that as I didn't have much chance of improving my hand, to fold (it did take me some time to make the decision).

As it turned out 1 of the other aces were in play with the short stack and 1 of the guys that had me covered ended up winning the hand with a set of jacks (he had JJ and flopped another 1). I would have lost all my chips, so at the end of the day it was a good fold by me.

What I want to know, was it good play by me to fold or should I have played regardless and I missed a big opportunity to go massive chip leader (end doesn't justify the end and all that).

LuckyLloyd

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5starpool

Never fold AA preflop unless it is a specific situation where you are playing for multiple prizes where they are all the same value (such as 10 entries to a bigger tournament), and even then only if you don't need to do anything fancy to get a ticket. Even then it is a rare situation where you would fold preflop.

This wasn't the situation I have outlined, so just because you would have lost does not mean you made the right play. Results based thinking etc etc, blah blah.

If you folded 72o here and the flop came 777 would you be posting to ask if you should have called? Same situation, only reversed.

Ste05

Clareman wrote:

What I want to know, was it good play by me to fold or should I have played regardless and I missed a big opportunity to go massive chip leader (end doesn't justify the end and all that).

Should have played regardless. Big mistake to fold.

Have a read of this:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054963730

EDIT: Dammit! Lloyd, and his ultra fast typing!!!

phantom_lord

oh noez.

Clareman

thanks guys, confirms what I was thinking, I'm a donk

And thanks for the anology 5star, hit the nail on the head

BobSloane

You did the right thing folding as 20 years from now you may find yourself on the bubble in a major tournament and get dealt AA 3 times in quick succession and find yourself folding them pre-flop due the the psycological damage that this bad beat would have done to you. So in the extreme big picture this may have been a +ev move.

Seriously though man...

Clareman

BobSloane wrote:

You did the right thing folding as 20 years from now you may find yourself on the bubble in a major tournament and get dealt AA 3 times in quick succession and find yourself folding them pre-flop due the the psycological damage that this bad beat would have done to you. So in the extreme big picture this may have been a +ev move.

Seriously though man...

LOL, true, I wasn't thinking of the big picture

meathman 007

i would agree that in general you should never fold aces pre-flop unless its in a satelite etc etc. But looking at it from another angle. With 4 players all in in front of him, he was not favourite to win the pot by the river. If he feels he has a significant edge on the players in the tourney, then laying down the aces (obviously dont show the table that your laying them down) and waiting for a better spot to get his money in may be the better option - just playing devils advocate!

pok3rplaya

Clareman wrote:

I decided that as I didn't have much chance of improving my hand, to fold (it did take me some time to make the decision).

Well I for one person agree with you. I mean look at it this way:

AA has 2 outs = 8% chance to win

KQ has 6 outs = 24% chance to win

so then that means that KQ has to be the favourite when the money goes in because it has more chance to improve. Also KQ can make more straights.

I think this was a good fold.

pok3rplaya

meathman 007 wrote:

i would agree that in general you should never fold aces pre-flop unless its in a satelite etc etc. But looking at it from another angle. With 4 players all in in front of him, he was not favourite to win the pot by the river. If he feels he has a significant edge on the players in the tourney, then laying down the aces (obviously dont show the table that your laying them down) and waiting for a better spot to get his money in may be the better option - just playing devils advocate!

jeez I really need to get into that Riverside game ASAP.

poorbarman

BobSloane wrote:

You did the right thing folding as 20 years from now you may find yourself on the bubble in a major tournament and get dealt AA 3 times in quick succession and find yourself folding them pre-flop due the the psycological damage that this bad beat would have done to you. So in the extreme big picture this may have been a +ev move.

Seriously though man...

Like your thinking on this;)

BobSloane

meathman 007 wrote:

With 4 players all in in front of him, he was not favourite to win the pot by the river.

Who is? The guy with the Jacks?

Ste05

meathman 007 wrote:

he was not favourite to win the pot by the river.

Interesting ideas there meathman, although I have one question for you... If AA isn't favourite to win the hand what hand is??

LuckyLloyd

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5starpool

pok3rplaya wrote:

Well I for one person agree with you. I mean look at it this way:

AA has 2 outs = 8% chance to win

KQ has 6 outs = 24% chance to win

so then that means that KQ has to be the favourite when the money goes in because it has more chance to improve. Also KQ can make more straights.

I think this was a good fold.

Stop it.

Ste05

UnLuckyLloyd wrote:

Why the fcuk has this thread got beyond two posts!!?? :mad:

Somebody nuke the fcuk out of it please. And hurry.

Get out the popcorn, we're in for another bumpy road me thinks!!!

gogogogogoggo

Lissavalley

I think Im gonna be sick.

pok3rplaya

5starpool wrote:

Stop it.

<shrugs> You cant argue with mathematics.

meathman 007

what the f..k, i taught this place was full of poker experts. Yes, the person with the pocket aces had the best individual chance of winning the pot. HOWEVER when you combine the odds of the other 4 hands beating the aces then he is not favourite to have the best hand by the river!
For example
Player 1 - Aces - 44.27%
Player 2 - Jacks - 15.48%
Player 3 - Kq suited - 12.77%
Player 4 - 78 suited - 13.74%
Player 5 - Pocked Sixes - 13.72%

Id rather put all my money in when i was a bigger favourite than 44%.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

breadmonkey

meathman 007 wrote:

what the f..k, i taught this place was full of poker experts. Yes, the person with the pocket aces had the best individual chance of winning the pot. HOWEVER when you combine the odds of the other 4 hands beating the aces then he is not favourite to have the best hand by the river!
For example
Player 1 - Aces - 44.27%
Player 2 - Jacks - 15.48%
Player 3 - Kq suited - 12.77%
Player 4 - 78 suited - 13.74%
Player 5 - Pocked Sixes - 13.72%

Id rather put all my money in when i was a bigger favourite than 44%.

Are you American by any chance?

5starpool

Ok lads and lassies, you have approx 45 mins (assuming one of the other mods don't lock this) before I get home from work, and I will lock this then. You can try to accomplish the following.

1. Get yourself banned. This is fairly easy to do and can be accomplished in many ways. If you don't know they are then you might find out.
2. Talk crap. Not bannable in itself but not very helpful.
3. Come up with a new mathematical formula based on Pok3rplaya's revolutionary thinking.

Knock yourselves out.

Ste05

meathman 007 wrote:

Id rather put all my money in when i was a bigger favourite than 44%.

But will you ever be getting like 5:1 and the chance to basically win the whole kit and kaboodle??? (sp??)

meathman 007

no irish, maybe im alone in thinking that id rather not put my tourney life on the line with a coin flip. If im not badly short stacked then i would gladly wait for a better spot..., maybe youse are the same people who think roland de wolfe played well at the irish open final table...... cause he played like an idiot

LuckyLloyd

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pok3rplaya

Quick question: Is it possible to get banned for subtly taking the p*ss?

BobSloane

meathman 007 wrote:

my tourney life on the line

Now you're in trouble lol

LuckyLloyd

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LuckyLloyd

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Samba

bunch of ******* Trolls

Tar.Aldarion

http://media.funny.co.uk/files/2811.jpg

Fold, wait for a better spot for your aces.

Ste05

UnLuckyLloyd wrote:

AAAAAGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!! Stop it. Ste you are too intelligent to take this seriously.

Come on it's fun, join in!!!

I love how he's using all the Buzz words too, "tournament life", "picking better spots"

Gimmick account??

Now back to the debate.....

phantom_lord

pok3rplaya

fwiw It is actually possible to go all in preflop with AA and not be a favourive. Someone on another forum came up with a combination of 9 other hands which ment that AA was a 1% dog to the favourite.


Am I levelling y/n?

phantom_lord

meathman 007 wrote:

what the f..k, i taught this place was full of poker experts. Yes, the person with the pocket aces had the best individual chance of winning the pot. HOWEVER when you combine the odds of the other 4 hands beating the aces then he is not favourite to have the best hand by the river!
For example
Player 1 - Aces - 44.27%
Player 2 - Jacks - 15.48%
Player 3 - Kq suited - 12.77%
Player 4 - 78 suited - 13.74%
Player 5 - Pocked Sixes - 13.72%

Id rather put all my money in when i was a bigger favourite than 44%.

meathman 007

fair enough there is obviously a couple of regulars on here who feel the need to shoot down a post if they dont agree with it. this place is obviously full of people who think aces are the almighty hand regardless of the scenario. i can fold it depending on my stack knowing im going to be roughly a 6/4 dog to win the pot outright. oh and calling me a fish really hurts my feelings!

BobSloane

Paraphrasing a Stu Ungar quote.

"I had a terrible nightmare last night. I was playing Meathman in a heads up tournament where there were no blinds or antes"

Clareman

sorry for causing such an annoying thread for people. I have learnt that you should never fold pocket aces and I'm a donkey.

I'm just amazed I wasn't told to move up levels (if only to give people there my BR)

valor

Good fold, screw the haters

Bandana boy

Clareman wrote:

sorry for causing such an annoying thread for people. I have learnt that you should never fold pocket aces and I'm a donkey.

I'm just amazed I wasn't told to move up levels (if only to give people there my BR)

move up levels

By the way good fold
You where obviously proven right by the JJJ hitting you would have been a huge dog to redraw against him with only 1 live card left

pok3rplaya

meathman 007 wrote:

fair enough there is obviously a couple of regulars on here who feel the need to shoot down a post if they dont agree with it. this place is obviously full of people who think aces are the almighty hand regardless of the scenario. i can fold it depending on my stack knowing im going to be roughly a 6/4 dog to win the pot outright. oh and calling me a fish really hurts my feelings!

aaaahh Meath...

phantom_lord

meathman 007 wrote:

fair enough there is obviously a couple of regulars on here who feel the need to shoot down a post if they dont agree with it. this place is obviously full of people who think aces are the almighty hand regardless of the scenario. i can fold it depending on my stack knowing im going to be roughly a 6/4 dog to win the pot outright. oh and calling me a fish really hurts my feelings!

he's right.

getting 5/1 when we're only 6/4 to win and have an nice playable avg stack. what are u guys thinking? meathman for mod! I'm just annoyed the nominations for poster of the year are the closed.

Clareman

I didn't bother with pot odds or anything, I was thinking that I was underdog against all the others, in the end I was right, but would have been unlucky to have lost, I think 5star put it best when said in 1 of the first posts about the flop coming 777 and you had folded 7 2o

BobSloane

There is one possible occasion I think where it could be correct to fold AA pre-flop. There was some table I think Jack Strauss was on right near the bubble. He was one of the shortest stacks at the table when he came on and started playing very aggressively and everyone was folding. After a while he was second in chips(I think). He raised again and the shortest stack at the table moved all-in. Strauss had to call a couple of big blinds to see him and looked down at KK(I'm almost sure he didn't have AA). He called anyway and knocked the guy out and then the table broke up for the final table where the money payout started. Strauss was apparantly furious with himself for not folding as he reckoned he could have won more chips by keeping the shortstack alive and continuing to steal the blinds. Thats a pretty scary level of thinking lol

Clareman

BobSloane wrote:

There is one possible occasion I think where it could be correct to fold AA pre-flop. There was some table I think Jack Strauss was on right near the bubble. He was one of the shortest stacks at the table when he came on and started playing very aggressively and everyone was folding. After a while he was second in chips(I think). He raised again and the shortest stack at the table moved all-in. Strauss had to call a couple of big blinds to see him and looked down at KK(I'm almost sure he didn't have AA). He called anyway and knocked the guy out and then the table broke up for the final table where the money payout started. Strauss was apparantly furious with himself for not folding as he reckoned he could have won more chips by keeping the shortstack alive and continuing to steal the blinds. Thats a pretty scary level of thinking lol

They talked about that in Poker after Dark on NBC a couple of weeks ago (the commentators game)

meathman 007

forget about the 5/1 odds. my whole argument is based around 'tournament life'. I would make the call 100% of the time in a cash game. Youse obviously didnt read my first post when i said i was playing devils advocate! of course i would make the call some of the time, but not 100% of the time like youse are suggesting......

Clareman

meathman 007 wrote:

forget about the 5/1 odds. my whole argument is based around 'tournament life'. I would make the call 100% of the time in a cash game. Youse obviously didnt read my first post when i said i was playing devils advocate! of course i would make the call some of the time, but not 100% of the time like youse are suggesting......

I wasn't suggesting 100% of the time, sorry, if it was the near of start of a tourney, or I had everyone covered that was raising, or even shortstack, it'd be insta-call

ntlbell

meathman 007 wrote:

forget about the 5/1 odds. my whole argument is based around 'tournament life'. I would make the call 100% of the time in a cash game. Youse obviously didnt read my first post when i said i was playing devils advocate! of course i would make the call some of the time, but not 100% of the time like youse are suggesting......

[IMG]http:/[/IMG]

pok3rplaya

meathman 007 wrote:

forget about the 5/1 odds. my whole argument is based around 'tournament life'. I would make the call 100% of the time in a cash game. Youse obviously didnt read my first post when i said i was playing devils advocate! of course i would make the call some of the time, but not 100% of the time like youse are suggesting......

Let me be the first to say...


Heads up for Bankrolls?

Bandana boy

pok3rplaya wrote:

Let me be the first to say...


Heads up for Bankrolls?

We no longer say heads up for bankrolls

its now heads up for houses