Rugby for self defence

columok

Was thinking recently about the self defence benefits of something like rugby or american football: namely accelerating away from a group of attackers.

If in 90% of self defence situations you were facing multiple attackers (and in my opinion in this situation you're in trouble) then surely a good sprint and sidestep would be a pretty solid self defence technique...

LiNgWiStIkZ

I don't see how those could be for self defense, but it's an interesting point:)

Maybe you could boot them outta the way

columok

OK... So assuming that escape is the No.1 outcome to a self defence situation...

If you're facing 1 person then the likelihood is that you have 320 degrees to pick from in terms of direction to run into. Sprinting in 90% of such situations will suffice.

If you're facing more than one person then the angle of run away you have reduces. The people who are probably best at sprinting past people trying to stop them are rugby players or american footballers. Therefore if running will work 90% or more of the times (when you honestly choose to use it) then surely rugby or american footy will provide you with the best SD chance of getting past that circle or line of people trying to get you...

henryb

This is assuming you have spotted the danger signs
early and havent been been hit or got into a clinch
etc etc ?

cowzerp

Do rugby to get good at rugby!
Do self defense to defend your self.
If you can take something that you learned and use it great-but dont rely on rugby as a defense tool..

Valmont

Rugby players tend to get big and tough and all that pushing and shoving is sure to help strength, I'd venture to say most rugger buggers could look after themselves in a brawl

cowzerp

Rugby is a very tough sport-this does not mean a rugby player will automatically be able to look after themselves-tough people are tough by nature-softies dont get tough by playing rugby.

columok

I'm not debating the relative merits of (say) MMA training and rugby in a streetfight scenario. What i'm saying that Street self defence should surely be about probabilities. You want to maximise the chance that you'll get a favourable outcome from something bad happening.

So if sprinting is gonna help 90% of the time then train sprinting 90% of the time. And if multiple attackers is your fear then surely train either some rugby/NFL or get yourself a speed ladder, some cones and practise sprinting, weaving, quick foot movements etc.

cowzerp

I would not advise anyone to do rugby for self defense as its got nothing to do with sd-but if your happy to advise this, go for it. why dont you make an art where the aim is to get by multiple opponents who are trying to attack you? or add that to your m a training. not even being funny.

columok

Well it was more a question (or thought) for the SD minded. Since leaving team traditional and joining team SBG I've abandoned all desire to ever bother training SD again. Sport is a million times more rewarding.

Nothingcompares

the kata used in rugby training is largely unhelpful to SD

If I had to choose between a international rugby player and an international TKD pattern champion in a street fight, I think i'd go for the TKDer....

ThatBloke

I heard about a dojo in Blackrock that was making people pay to get their upturned collars.

Roper

I'm a purple dube with that dojo

Sangre

Nothingcompares wrote:

the kata used in rugby training is largely unhelpful to SD

If I had to choose between a international rugby player and an international TKD pattern champion in a street fight, I think i'd go for the TKDer....

Tbh, I'd rather be an international winger. I'm outta there!

HammerHeadGym

Is this the opening chapter from 'THe self defence delusion', by colum dawkins?

columok

Dave wrote:

Is this the opening chapter from 'THe self defence delusion', by colum dawkins?

Better get some Kenpo training under my belt (I mean dube) so I can make it Professor Colum

Dragan

cowzerp wrote:

I would not advise anyone to do rugby for self defense as its got nothing to do with sd-but if your happy to advise this, go for it. why dont you make an art where the aim is to get by multiple opponents who are trying to attack you? or add that to your m a training. not even being funny.

Neither was Colm.

He was simply making a comparison between the speed and agility actions on the sports pitch with the occasional need people might have to run away from someone.

It's an interesting concept and one that has been discussed here before.

For anyone who really is interested in working on speed and agility, for whatever reasons you could have a look at the below. Some interesting drills are explained.

http://www.teamtestforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=1086

siochain

Nothingcompares wrote:

the kata used in rugby training is largely unhelpful to SD

If I had to choose between a international rugby player and an international TKD pattern champion in a street fight, I think i'd go for the TKDer....

Would agree with the first point not so sure about the second one.

If you take the likes of Jerry Collins of NZ, Schalk Burger of SA, or even Delalio of England these are seriously conditioned fast backrow forwards that would have my bet any day.

Sports I have focused on since I was young in order boxing 3 years, rugby 11 years, kickboxing last 6 and currently.

I know rugby has left me well conditioned for taking the knocks and blows in kickboxing.

FiannaGym.com

I havent posted on here in a long time, but now is the time.

I have a range of new people come into my place regularly. I have black belts in Kung Fu, Kenpo, Karate, and Rugby Players.

Far and away... I mean that FAR FAR and away the new people who give me the hardest time a rugby players. Thats a fact. Please Sd guys, please face it.

Okay, as for Self defence we know I have always said training wind sprints is the only part of my training I consider self defence. It makes sense to me that training running away from attackers should be what SD people train, if that involves dodging and stuff then so be it.

But Colum, we've been here long enough to know that people inclined to do self DEFENCE are DEFENCIVE of their training.

One other benifit of Rugby for Self Defence: Stipudly lenient sentences

Peace

buck65

yeah but guys you would have to time your run perfectly as not to be offside:D
Really if i was a backrower like Jerry Collins I think I would just plow into my attackers at full speed thats what he i paid to do anyway

Herman

Picture a 17 stone guy who can pick up someone of similar build and run around with him, at speed. He is also used to being battered and bruised on every conceivable body part.

This guy has a massive advantage over most men, regardless of whether they do martial arts unless, of course, you have a similar build yourself.

I've read alot about awareness and avoidance etc. And those are great skills. But, if it kicks off, the rugby player won't even be trying to run away. He will be pushing your head into your own anus.

Dragan

To add to what is being said actually, in the night job the two types of guys who will give the most trouble should they kick off will be rugby players and powerlifters, in my experience!

Rugby players have a great ability to manipulate force and stance…..it's part of the game. Power lifters are just strong, super strong and you need to adapt to that and deal with them accordingly.

I have never had trouble throwing out someone who did any type of MA to be honest…..mostly because the genuinely good ones have the sense and calm to not cause trouble and just don't seem to feel the need.

trout

I can't claim to be an expert judoka or rugby player, but I've some experience of both.

I belive my modest grappling skills give me an advantage on the rugby pitch, one on one in tackles and rucks/mauls ... plus when it comes to throws and landing safely, similar techniques and principles apply. By the same token, having practical tests of contesting power & grip & shifting stances on the rugby pitch has helped me better understand my own strengths & weaknesses when sparring.

Would it be fair to say that experienced rugby players while they may not be aggressive or confrontational themselves, may have good experience of aggressive and confrontational situations in a controlled environment ?

Lets face it, rugby is a full contact physically combative and aggressive game .

I would imagine that playing rugby regularly would supplement MA training, given the focus on general fitness, explosive power, stamina, reaction times, evasion, tackling, rucking & mauling etc.

buck65

yeah but what about all the rules?

trout

buck65 wrote:

yeah but what about all the rules?

dunno what the rule book says, but at the level i play ... these are the real rules

#1 don't eat the ball (don't lie on it!)
#2 don't hit anyone with the same shirt as you
#3 forwards don't make kicks & backs don't make tackles
#4 if you can't get there first, get there the most (to the ball)
#5 when in doubt, hit the man with the ball, hard, and drive him backwards, downwards and often

Mark Hamill

If you think about it, if you use running as a form of self-defense, then essentially the only thing you'll have to worry about is if someone runs after you and tries to tackle you, so having sufficient rugby experience should mean you can either take the tackle without injury get back up, or hand off the tackle and avoid it entirely.
So i think that rugby would be a benefit to self defense (a small one maybe, but still a benefit).

Roper

This is a mental debate... lunacy seriously, read back over it with the following sentence in your head in an incredulous tone: "They're debating rugby's usefullness for self defence!" It puts a whole new perspective on it.

That said, I reckon rugby is deadly. We were out one night and I saw some dube wearing Leinster jersey wearing rugger dude pick up a guy and slam him into a wall- fight over, except he wasn't defending himself he started the scrap and the guy he lifted was about 60kg soaking wet. Come to think of it he was a knob... bad example.

Anyway thanks for starting this debate Colum, its great craic. To sort it all out next time I see John Hayes walking around I'll kick him in the nadgers and see how he defends himself. That man cried in front of 80,000 people so I reckon he's a man who is very confident he can defend himself.

SorGan

Herman wrote:

Picture a 17 stone guy who can pick up someone of similar build and run around with him, at speed. He is also used to being battered and bruised on every conceivable body part.

This guy has a massive advantage over most men, regardless of whether they do martial arts unless, of course, you have a similar build yourself.

I've read alot about awareness and avoidance etc. And those are great skills. But, if it kicks off, the rugby player won't even be trying to run away. He will be pushing your head into your own anus.

well just knock him the hell out

Degsy

Given that most "attackers" would prefer to take a pop at somebody weak and defenceless,even LOOKING like a rugby player would be a step in the right direction.

I played rugby for 5 years before starting judo and later bjj. I found the sort of strength I developed from playing as a forward carried over very well to grappling.

hardCopy

I've just recently started training BJJ after 12 years of rugby, the rugby training definitely helps in terms of gaining position and shooting for takedowns.

I've also done some karate in the past and I felt the rugby gave me a good idea of how to handle getting kicked and punched in the head, i.e. I rarely got stunned sparring.

Rugby players also learn how to fall safely.

MA's and rugby do compliment each other and are both good outlets for anyone who wants to play a contact sport. In spite of all that I wouldn't train rugby for any reason other than the love of rugby, if you wanna be able to fight then train fighting.

p.s. Not all rugby players can run fast.

Musashi

First off, most Rugby guys I've met, like most MMA guys I've met, are basically sound. They are fit, strong and good at their sports. Far better at their sports than I am even if they are poor by the sports own standards.

Any SD person I have ever met will tell you that it's better to meet a weak and soft assailant than a fit and tough one. Looking like a Rugby player will help deselect you as a victim for that type of attacker. Of course MA and SD training can help people look more like "Rugby Types".

On running as SD, it depends how close the bad person is to you and how he rates his own turn of speed. Are you turning on his chase reflex by running away? If you are far away enough to get away, then run, if you are too close then don't. That would be SD type advice, is it so outlandish as to lack any merit?

Rugby guys take knocks and train hard, proper SD training will include the same. What makes Rugby or even Sprinting a better way of training if SD training is applied in this same way?

This is a bit "chicken and egg" anyway, guys inclined to train in Martial Arts, Powerlifting or Rugby will tend to be the more aggressive and tough type A personality anyway. They will not train to get tough, they will train as an outlet for that natural aggression. A Rugby player with SD training will be effective because he's a big, strong, driven kind of guy anyhow. The speed of a guy running from a scrap is more often converted into speed getting to a scrap by the Rugby fraternity anyways, and the best guys I've trained with in Combatives were of the same mould. Great on your side and a nightmare on the other guys side!

If SD training doesn't float your boat then don't do it. Questioning the motives of those that do is as sad as people equating MMA with gay man grappling. Both involve gross generalisations and assumptions, lending nothing to any kind of debate. Just leave it, say it's not your kind of thing and move on. It's not like both types of training are competing for the same members?

Nothingcompares

spot on their musashi until the last paragraph. Questioning why people train for SD helps me understand why they do it and helps me decide whether I should put more energy into it myself. It's also an opportunity for me to encourage people to train for sport because that's where I see the core benefits. If we always took the "they do their thing, I do my thing" attitude we'd all cease to learn from each other.

spiral

paxo

Hi
My 2cents worth. I regulary train with two guys, one is an ex semi pro rugby league player and weighs in at 110 kg the other an ex union player weighing in at 135 kgs. Both these guys have some martial arts experience. Both are very strong, can control and focus their aggression and are surprisingly fast off the mark and can tolerate a lot of contact. Obviously rugby is not a MA however haveing said that either of these guys could and have given a good account of them selves when they had to. Both of them have the same attitude to training " go hard or go home" In my experience these guys give me more problems in training than most martial artist I train with
Regards
paxo

cowzerp

Musashi wrote:

If SD training doesn't float your boat then don't do it. Questioning the motives of those that do is as sad as people equating MMA with gay man grappling. Both involve gross generalisations and assumptions, lending nothing to any kind of debate. Just leave it, say it's not your kind of thing and move on. It's not like both types of training are competing for the same members?

Debate on self defence should always be about effectiveness-if someone learns a self defense system that has made them confident to deal with attackers but will not work, i believe its our duty to give our opinions on this.
If someone wants to do martial arts for exercise and fun, socialising etc then i'd say join the martial art that you enjoy most. if im asked whats the best i'd always go with the 1's that can be used on the street-Boxing, muay thai and mma would be my opinion. people should be specific in why they do there chosen activity.

Herman

SorGan wrote:

well just knock him the hell out

Yes. It really would be that easy.

Not.

vasch_ro

FiannaGym.com wrote:

One other benifit of Rugby for Self Defence: Stipudly lenient sentences

Peace

sorry I have to pull you up here Fianna, the sentances are as a result of our society/judicary , although i do understand what your getting at

SorGan

Herman wrote:

Yes. It really would be that easy.

Not.

well it depends on the individual now doesnt it?
id rather fight a rugby dude than a well trained fighter,

Musashi

spot on their musashi until the last paragraph. Questioning why people train for SD helps me understand why they do it and helps me decide whether I should put more energy into it myself. It's also an opportunity for me to encourage people to train for sport because that's where I see the core benefits. If we always took the "they do their thing, I do my thing" attitude we'd all cease to learn from each other.

That's sound out and not what I was objecting to at all mate. I am sorry for not being clear there! Questioning is grand, understanding is also sound out! Dismissing out of hand people who train for SD reasons as out of control nutjobs or armchair fantasists is what I would object to. People train for lots of reasons, valid to themselves if nothing else. Training for sport and competition is a fine and admirable thing, at elite levels it's not inclusive and for good reason. Most people are not elite athletes and have no reason to train with those types. Me training with Olympic level field athletes would hold them back while adding little to my level of ability, for example.

My attending various seminars with SD instructors is perfectly valid and interfering with no-one. It's my business what I train in and why, methods are always up for discussion. If I feel I have had my moneys worth then that was a good session. I am always open to new drills from sports, they have the money to develop those drills and don't do it for no return. If a soccer drill returns harder kicks I'm learning it!

if im asked whats the best i'd always go with the 1's that can be used on the street-Boxing, muay thai and mma would be my opinion. people should be specific in why they do there chosen activity.

What if what is best for "Street fights" isn't a style at all? I would recommend Mick Coup before a general boxing or Muay Thai session. If you need a Thai guy I would go with Dave Joyce as he is way more than Thai boxing if you need to learn "street" stuff. I've seen good amateur boxers swept by poor kickboxers, style or even contact level isn't everything! If people want to learn a style and want a hobby then MMA is a good choice, I like the approach to training and the drills they use. The likes of John Kav. are very up front about what MMA is and isn't. A good MMA guy is a top athlete, like a top Rugby guy or a top boxer. I don't want to fight any of them guys! I want to meet a lazy ass loud mouth fecker who can't back up any of his claims, that'd be me though! :rolleyes:

ThatBloke

It's not the rugby training that would help with self defence it's the weight training associated with Rugby. You need to be strong to play Rugby, of course that's going to help with self defence. None of the technical aspects of the game will help you really though.

Roper

Musashi wrote:

I would recommend Mick Coup before a general boxing or Muay Thai session. If you need a Thai guy I would go with Dave Joyce as he is way more than Thai boxing if you need to learn "street" stuff.

Just out of interest, on these reccomendations you're giving, I know you've trained with Mick Coup, but what amount of MMA, Boxing and Muay Thai have you done? Have you trained with Dave Joyce or in a good MMA club?

I'm not picking here just curious.

DITTKD

Ah sure, there's no reason not to apply good techniques from other fields into your own drills if they work.
As for slipping to the side and sprinting, we do a lot of that in our club. It's purely for sparring though.
It’s similar to Rugby I guess, the slipping to the side stuff. And I guess it would probably be more useful in a self defense situation than what we do in our club, as your more likely to be tackled by an attacker than kicked with a side kick or something.

Musashi

I know you've trained with Mick Coup, but what amount of MMA, Boxing and Muay Thai have you done? Have you trained with Dave Joyce or in a good MMA club?

No bother at all Roper mate. I've only done a couple of seminars in BJJ, one with John Kav., as full blown MMA clubs don't exist here. There is one in Waterford City but that's too far to travel to on a regular basis. I've done a couple of years boxing, but I was too old when I took it up so wasn't really getting much training in it. The young lads were where the potential was
I've similarly trained with Dave Joyce at a Sayoc training group meet, I know it's not a lot of time but he had a great manner about him and got a lot of information across with no mystical BS I would recommend him knowing he is a Thai instructor but also a Sayoc Kali practitioner. I've trained over ten years in TKD, some of that was good and some not so good. Different instructors have different focus, a few were too competition oriented for me, but that's how it goes. If there was a good MMA club, a SBG or Judo or Thai club local I'd be training there, nothing doing yet but given the popularity of the UFC I guess it's just a matter of time. I know John McGrath of Waterford Martial Arts was advertising BJJ classes in his club. If he'll go all the way to a full MMA club or not would be based on the finacial viability of such a move, I would imagine. There were talks of his opening a new club here in town, hopefully that will go ahead.

I would recommend Mick Coup to a rank beginner (or anyone really) as he will give them enough tools over a weekend to have a realistic grasp of SD training. That doesn't mean you can do two days and never revisit the material again and hope to be effective when it counts. If you are fortunate enough to have a boxing, Thai, MMA, Judo or whatever club local then that is a good place to train as well. Combat sports training will benefit cardio and strength levels, always a good thing, having a few mates willing to pad up and run drills with you is great! I'm not knocking MMA or those styles, just pointing out that there are other means of reaching the same goals. If all is available is the local Karate or TKD club, that's probably your best bet for finding someone else interested in SD type training also. I'm sure there are plenty guys just meeting in back yards and garages to drill this stuff

Roper

Thats grand Musashi i was just wondering where you were coming from. To be honest, I think your assesment of certain arts/systems in your previous post was a bit off but you've clarified your opinions in your second post and what they're based upon. Cheers.

I know John McGrath of Waterford Martial Arts was advertising BJJ classes in his club.

Yes I saw that in Irish Fighter last time out. A mate of mine was crying out for a BJJ club down south a while back while working there but had no success in finding one. So this guy teaches BJJ there? I'll let him know because his company has an office in Waterford city and he's up and down. Have you any details on the class, who teaches, who he trained under etc.?

siochain

ThatBloke wrote:

It's not the rugby training that would help with self defence it's the weight training associated with Rugby. You need to be strong to play Rugby, of course that's going to help with self defence. None of the technical aspects of the game will help you really though.

There are many aspects to rugby that would help. The plyometrics, sprint work, rucking, mauling, tacking and above all the physical contact conditioning.

Musashi

I know John McGrath was advertising BJJ, but last I heard he had no instructor to teach it? This may have changed, but it looked like he has Massan Ghorbani grading his kickboxers and is possibly learning BJJ from him?

There's also the Tramore Hapkido lads doing BJJ. Dlofnep or Quillo would be the lads to ask about that.

Herman

SorGan wrote:

well it depends on the individual now doesnt it?
id rather fight a rugby dude than a well trained fighter,

Does that mean you know what a "well trained" fighter actually is? Because the people I see plodding up and down in sports centres look like well trained robots to me.

Nothingcompares

i was playing rugby today for the first time in 5 years and am covered in cuts and sores (hard ground). If someone is interested in self-preservation, keep to something a little gentler on the body

SorGan

Herman wrote:

Does that mean you know what a "well trained" fighter actually is? Because the people I see plodding up and down in sports centres look like well trained robots to me.

well they aint the well trained fighters im talking about now are they?
think boxing,krav maga,combatives,thai...add good training...job done.

and not a funny shaped ball in sight:)

ThatBloke

Nothingcompares wrote:

i was playing rugby today for the first time in 5 years and am covered in cuts and sores (hard ground). If someone is interested in self-preservation, keep to something a little gentler on the body

That's actually a good point, I've played a few sports competitively and I got WAY more injuries in Rugby than anything else, just stupid stuff like guys raking their studs down your achilles.