NTL Cancellation Fee

nxbyveromdwjpg

Got NTL BB in about 6 weeks ago, its decent when its working but the signal constantly drops which is infuriating, and now when my flatmate tried to hook up his laptop to it aswell he somehow got the Netgear wireless modem to stop giving out signal completely.
Rang NTL but they wont support the netgear modem (that they sold me). They give me a support number for netgear, which I cant ring from my mobile, and I dont have a landline.
So I've a useless BB that is of no use to me, and no support.

So now I've tried to cancel, but they are trying to charge me a €100 cancellation fee. I know with most operators I'd have signed a contract to that effect when I first got it, and so that would be fair enough.

But,

1) I wasnt made aware of this 12 month contract at the point of sale
2) I didnt sign anything
3) I didnt agree to anything verbally over the phone or on a TPV recording or anything like that
4) I'd never even heard of it until I actually went to cancel

In my mind a contract is a binding thing between 2 parties, which this is not, because I never agreed to it.

Can I get out of this?

jor el

If the service you are paying them for is not being provided then they are in breach of any contract that might be in place. In this case, you should be able to cancel without obligation as it's already broken. Just cancel your direct debit with them and walk away.

dub45

jor el wrote:

If the service you are paying them for is not being provided then they are in breach of any contract that might be in place. In this case, you should be able to cancel without obligation as it's already broken. Just cancel your direct debit with them and walk away.

No because they are liable to keep submitting direct debits or hand your account to debt collectors - if you are going to cancel do it properly.

From your post it would not seem that you have any grounds for cancelling the contract.

If your flatmate has messed up the Netgear settings then get them sorted one way or another.

If you have NTL BB then you have to have ordered it in some way or other it did not magically appear in the house and the fact that you have used it for six weeks would be taken in the event of a dispute that you have accepted their terms and conditions. Any moderately informed person knows there is some term associated with getting bb no matter who you get it from!

Have you reported the faults on the service to them (as distinct from asking for help with the Netgear) have they made any attempt to repair the connection? These are the grounds to pursue if you wish to cancel your contract properly. You have made no mention of reporting a fault and them refusing to fix it. (As distinct from the Netgear problem which no third part would regard as a legitimate reason for walking away from a contract)

JNive

there is a very fine line about the issue regarding the router etc. Normally, whatever they sell you to access their network is supported by them, however this is the fine line in legality terms.

The limit of their responsibility for access to their cable network is the LAN port on the Modem, since they still officially only gurantee operation with a single PC.

Now even though they give the option of buying a wireless router from them to use multiple devices etc, they are only selling it as a netgear agent and are only giving the consumer assurance that the product works with their service when the unit is functioning normally.

However should something need fixing in the router, you need to go to the manufacturer, absurd however in terms of the contract and terms of service, i believe its specified clearly.

As for the cancellation fee, i think in the contract somewhere is a clause about them 'reserving the right to seek appropriate compensation' or something to that effect if you end the service early.

As for whether or not you agreed to the contract, check if the order process you went through, provided a link to the terms of service at any point, if so then check them to see if 'usage of the service indicates your agreement of these terms' or something to that effect.

if however you were not made aware that there were terms to agree to by using the service during your order process, and you were not asked to sign any document or form, then you were neither asked nor warned of any contractual obligations, nor as there been any consensus between the two parties of any minimum term.

Might have a read through the terms shortly myself lol

If the service you are paying them for is not being provided then they are in breach of any contract

Be careful of that sort of thinking. You need to attack these issues from a legal point of view. Bare in mind that as stated, the limit of their service obligations end at the modems lan port, and they are only obliged to support service to this point, therefore they are not in breach. To access 'the service' ( which is again defined as above ) he needs to connect his computer to the modems lan port. If this works, then 'the service' is being provided

Mr. Presentable

Is the Netgear a modem or router? I suspect the latter. If connecting the PC directly to the modem is the BB working?

Also I believe someone must have signed something when the BB connection and hardware were set up. No?

If you are having poor service I suggest you keep reporting it. Advise them you do not wish to pay for periods when the BB is not working. Build up a relationship that illustrates their failure to uphold a service and you'll have no problem getting out of the contract.

It is not NTLs fault or problem you have no land line.

JNive

Advise them you do not wish to pay for periods when the BB is not working

Which is ok in an ideal world, and probably depends on who you talk to on the other end, however even if its offline half the time, they still are not breaching the contract, as they say they do not guarantee operation of the network at all times, and that due to maintenance and other technological factors that issues resulting from it are outside their control and that service is provided on best effort ( not sure if those words are used in the terms, i forget lol ).

If the problems regarding downtime are widespread and are a permanent occurence, the most that they can be done for is false advertising regarding the 'always on connection'

dub45

Yes just to follow on from the posts above it is very important to have a record of complaints if you wish to 'break' a contract - in the old days it would have been called a 'paper trail'.

I also remember reading on boards some time ago that the NTL installer got you to sign something on installation which included the terms and conditions maybe that has changed with the ongoing UPC debacle.

I think it very unlikely in this day and age of signing up over the phone and net that you will get much out of the argument of not being aware and not physically signing stuff etc and besides the original poster has over 500 posts on boards surely that involved a visit or two to the broadband forum no?

JNive

“Equipment” means any line, voice port, set top box or other equipment or apparatus provided by us from time to time as an essential part of providing Services under the terms of this Agreement;

"the Internet" means the global data network comprising interconnected networks using TCP/IP ("Transmission Control Protocol/Internet Protocol");

“Internet Services” means the service provided to you by us using digital or analogue technology to enable you to gain access to the Internet and certain services whether by a television, personal computer or otherwise;

“ntl Network” means the telecommunication systems run by us or any associated company (as principal or agent) from time to time under the terms of the ntl Licences;

"Operator's Network" means the telecommunication systems run by any Operator other than the ntl Network;


2. Provision of Services

2.1 We shall provide and you shall use the Services subject to the terms of this Agreement which must have been signed by our authorised representative before it is binding. We will provide the Services to you from the date we activate them and will continue to do so unless this Agreement is terminated as set out below.

2.2 We shall supply the Equipment required to provide the Services subject to the terms of this Agreement and in particular Condition 9 below.

3. Duration

3.1 The minimum period of service for any Package is twelve (12) months starting on the date we activate the Services. You can only terminate this Agreement during that minimum period if Conditions 19.5 or 20.1 apply otherwise we may (subject to Condition 20.2) charge you a cancellation charge which will be the charges which would have been payable to the end of the minimum period. If you want to terminate this Agreement after the minimum period just give us one month’s notice in writing.

4. Use of Services

You must use the Services according to any reasonable instructions which we give you in writing from time to time. Any other use is prohibited. You will be responsible for any claims, losses, damages or costs incurred by us arising out of or in any way connected with your use or misuse of the Services except where the loss or damage is caused by us or our employees, a manufacturing or design fault in the Equipment or other Equipment fault arising otherwise than as a result of breach by you of your obligations in Condition 9 below.

9. Equipment

9.1 We will supply you with the Equipment to facilitate provision of the Services and (subject to Condition 9.3 below) there will be no charge for the provision of the Equipment. You must not use the Equipment for any other purpose and must comply with any reasonable instructions that we may give you regarding the use of the Equipment.

9.2 The Equipment belongs to us and you must not give anyone else any rights over it. We may add to or substitute it as necessary to provide the Services or for other valid reasons.

9.3 We may need to supply you with additional equipment in order to provide you with the Services you request. If Equipment is provided to you separately, you may have to pay our reasonable additional charges. Such additional equipment may be subject to a separate consumer-hire agreement.

9.4 You may need to prepare your premises in accordance with our reasonable instructions before the Equipment can be installed and Services provided to you.

9.5 You may be liable to pay cancellation charges as provided for in Condition 3.1 if you terminate this Agreement before the end of any applicable minimum period. You may also have to pay additional charges under Conditions 6.4 (administration charge), 10.4 and 14.2 (charges for faults with Customer Provided Apparatus or another Operator’s Network), and 19.4 (reconnection/re-commencement of Service charges).

10. Faults and Matters Affecting the Services

10.1 We cannot guarantee that the Services will be fault free. If a fault occurs you should notify us by contacting our customer management centre.

10.2 We are responsible for the maintenance of the Equipment and the ntl Network.

10.3 Where we supply the Services to you via your existing connection to another Operator's Network it is your responsibility to maintain your connection to such Operator's Network and we shall not be responsible or liable to you for failing to provide the Services if such failure arises as a result of any interruption to or disconnection from the Operator's Network or because of failure or inadequacy in any Customer Provided Apparatus.

10.4 We may have:

(i) to change the code or technical specifications of the Services for operational reasons;

(ii) to interrupt or suspend the Services due to an emergency, for the purposes of repair, maintenance, improvement or because of operational reasons;

20. Cancellation Rights

20.1 You may cancel the Services without penalty in the following circumstances:-

(i) if we increase our Charges you may give us one month’s notice to cancel those Services in respect of which the Charges have increased irrespective of whether the minimum period in respect of those Services has expired. During that notice period those increased Charges will not apply to you;

(ii) if we significantly reduce the content of the Services you may terminate this Agreement by giving us one month’s notice in writing within 30 days of such change irrespective of whether the minimum period in respect of such Services has expired.

20.2 We will not impose any unlawful liability on you.

These are the most relevant points to equipment, acesss, reliability, cancellations etc

Dr.Bunson

I think every NTL customer regrets becoming an NTL customer. I had fierce problems with them last year.

Basically they sold more connections to their BB than the exchanges in the area could handle. The problem was that the BB did not always connect. I found the sollution was to leave the BB permanently switched on (I think the last time it was off was December).


Go to this website, and explain your problem to them, they may be able to help. http://www.askcomreg.ie/

dub45

Dr.Bunson wrote:

I think every NTL customer regrets becoming an NTL customer. I had fierce problems with them last year.

Basically they sold more connections to their BB than the exchanges in the area could handle. The problem was that the BB did not always connect. I found the sollution was to leave the BB permanently switched on (I think the last time it was off was December).


Go to this website, and explain your problem to them, they may be able to help. http://www.askcomreg.ie/

The problem in this case (i.e. recommending comreg or uncle tom cobbley for that matter) is that there is no evidence that the poster has actually complained to NTL about the service problems and he will have to go down that road first.

JNive

and as far as i know, comreg have no say in NTL matters as cable is not regulated like the phonelines and airwaves.

And they also dont have exchanges :-) the closest thing would be the local Nodes which in turn connect up to their network.

I recentlly got NTL Digital TV and the site said that Broadband was available also, so i ordered that and was told when they rang back that they did not have a broadband signal in that area of Dublin. I was pretty amazed when i heard that.

And btw, its Anglesea Road in Ballsbridge, D4. lol if i wanted to make money from technology products, first places i'd enable would be ballsbridge/donnybrook. Ailesbury and Shrewsbury being about a 1 minute walk from my place i wonder if NTL have broadband enabled there either :-).

However that being said, people on those roads probably wouldnt buy it anyway since its pretty dodgy and they have the money to go with eircom anyway or for all i know, leased lines lol.

po0k

I'm an UPC/NTL customer in Galway.
During the month of march, we experienced horrific downtime. Modem would not sync on the upstream during normal waking hours (7am-10/11pm). No net.
I called NTL support mid-way through, logged a fault with the level-1 folk, got a callback in 24hours from level-2 support. It was maintenance in Galway, as I had suspected. I was advised to contact billing, which I did, and got a refund of approx 50euros.
NTL has been a bit flakey, and there have been numerous phases of piss-poor latency, but I've found them to be as good as any other ISP I've dealt with (Netsource, IOL, Eircom).

That said, I have a background in networks and systems. I check http://192.168.100.1 when there's an issue, I've a smoothwall box between the lan and the modem. I monitor my [housemate's] traffic usage as best I can.
I don't run a wifi AP.

The number of shouldn't-work-but-seems-to-anyways methods of connecting the modem to the 'network' I've come across from people posting in these forums leads me to think that there should be a properly supported computer & network course in the 2nd-level curriculum. Alot of people bitching about poor support are the ones clogging up the place with issues that they should be more than capable of resolving themselves.
At the very least you should have the last few log lines from your modem in your hand before ringing up. It only has to be powered up and patched to your laptop to check it.
There should be no need for "level-1" support to filter out the tools.

yawnstretch

My NTL quality has been quite bad of late. And Im paying a lot.

We've had the TV freezing up on lots of the main channels - it was the same during Easter which was lovely. My netgear router is making a really annoying high-pitch noise this week and NTL don't care.

Landlines shouldn't be a requirement in this day and age - I can't ring most 1800- numbers either and its a joke - not that netgear will probably give a crap either "Have you got a receipt" is what they'd say as they know it came from NTL.

My download speed (6meg - my anus) is about 20k at the mo and upload has always been pathetic.

I was actually considering cancelling myself until I read the 100 euro thing in this thread. First I've F-ing heard of it. Legal horse crap about accepting all their microscopic font size minus 12 terms and conditions.

That said I've been bumraped so often by what goes for an ISP in this "country" / piece of muck in the ocean that I should count myself lucky it only takes 2 minutes to access a forum webpage filled with mostly text.

What year is it again? 1907?

dub45

yawnstretch wrote:

My NTL quality has been quite bad of late. And Im paying a lot.

We've had the TV freezing up on lots of the main channels - it was the same during Easter which was lovely. My netgear router is making a really annoying high-pitch noise this week and NTL don't care.

Landlines shouldn't be a requirement in this day and age - I can't ring most 1800- numbers either and its a joke - not that netgear will probably give a crap either "Have you got a receipt" is what they'd say as they know it came from NTL.

My download speed (6meg - my anus) is about 20k at the mo and upload has always been pathetic.

I was actually considering cancelling myself until I read the 100 euro thing in this thread. First I've F-ing heard of it. Legal horse crap about accepting all their microscopic font size minus 12 terms and conditions.

That said I've been bumraped so often by what goes for an ISP in this "country" / piece of muck in the ocean that I should count myself lucky it only takes 2 minutes to access a forum webpage filled with mostly text.

What year is it again? 1907?

Having said all that have you actually complainted to NTL?