Your opinions on the changing nature of I.T. as a career?

DublinWriter

I’d like to ask the opinion of people currently working in I.T. where they see it going generally as a career, especially in Ireland and the U.K.

I ask this because I know quite a lot of people currently working in I.T. who are deeply, deeply unhappy with the changing nature of industry and their chosen profession.

Myself, I’ve been working in I.T. for 18 years man and boy, nine of which were as an employee and as being self-employed for the other nine.

I’ve seen quite a lot of changes in the business, not just in the technology (that’s a given) but in the whole way corporate I.T. seems to be run and managed, and not just for the better.

I don’t want to predjuce the discussion by leading with my own opinion, but three of the main things I see going badly wrong are the following:

1) Poor I.T. Managment and Leadership
I see more and more companies shoe-horn failed middle-management from their business fast-track into I.T. and project management. Most of these people are typically ignorant to basic technical issues.

2) The threat of major I.T. companies moving out of Ireland
I see a lot of big-I.T. corporates set-up campus and R&D operations in Ireland. There tends to be a very complacent attitude among graduates recruited for such operations in relation to the relocation of their own jobs and they seem to think that they will always be able to innovate better than their Indian counterparts. Personally I think that’s a bogus argument, but more worryingly for them, China has it’s eyes on the prize and two years ago made teaching of English mandatory for all Chinese schools kids from age 4 and up. Personally, I think in the next 10-15 years, all big I.T. R&D will take place in the far east, with developers being paid a daily rate of what the current Irish wunderkind spends on Lattè in a day.

3) The so-called skills crises.
One of my clients currently operates a helpdesk employing about 10 recent graduates of a well-known Irish 3rd level organisation (I won’t mention the client or college). The college wouldn’t exactly be called ‘prestigious’ and the only work most could find was working as first level helpdesk call-takers via an agency. Basically, they have been working as data-entry bods for the past nine months, yet businesses-leaders constantly drone-on about the lack of I.T. graduates in Ireland.

jackbhoy

You do make some valid and pertinent points.

1)
From what I see of management within my workplace they are generally pretty good, they may not have technicial/development skills but they don't really need to understand the nitty-gritty as long as they are good project managers. The problems you mention would be more likely to happen in the public sector, where from my limited experience people seem to get promoted based on how long they've been around rather than actual ability.

2)
I have worked with developers from Asia, mostly India/pakistan and imo they are way ahead of many Irish developers in terms of technicial ability and work ethic. I can see many IT depts. becoming more of a centre for managing relationships and providing specs to outsource companies in Asia etc.

3)
Some of my former classmates have had to do helpdesk work to gain some experience, even though I got a grad job out of college I'm not sure I would have went this route as the experience they got was pretty useless.

jhegarty

DublinWriter wrote:

3) The so-called skills crises.
One of my clients currently operates a helpdesk employing about 10 recent graduates of a well-known Irish 3rd level organisation (I won’t mention the client or college). The college wouldn’t exactly be called ‘prestigious’ and the only work most could find was working as first level helpdesk call-takers via an agency. Basically, they have been working as data-entry bods for the past nine months, yet businesses-leaders constantly drone-on about the lack of I.T. graduates in Ireland.

I think the problem isn't IT graduates but IT graduates with skills and experience....

how many people get a degree , know all about how to plan and test a project but can't program at anywhere near a usefull level ?


You don't get that problem in India , they teach them to program , not pass a degree...

nesf

jhegarty wrote:

I think the problem isn't IT graduates but IT graduates with skills and experience....

how many people get a degree , know all about how to plan and test a project but can't program at anywhere near a usefull level ?


You don't get that problem in India , they teach them to program , not pass a degree...

From conversations with friends in the industry the most bemoaned thing I've heard of was the sheer lack of hardware knowledge and skills in graduates coming out of colleges at the moment. People seem to know a lot about Java/C++/etc but have only a surface knowledge of hardware in general.

jhegarty

nesf wrote:

From conversations with friends in the industry the most bemoaned thing I've heard of was the sheer lack of hardware knowledge and skills in graduates coming out of colleges at the moment. People seem to know a lot about Java/C++/etc but have only a surface knowledge of hardware in general.

makes sence, but don't deal with hardware myself....its really the same thing with software , java/c++ but not enough to be of any use....

damnyanks

Eastern europe & Asia have the edge on us when it comes to new investments. Not only does it make sense financially but they have that drive that Irish people no longer have.

I was raised knowing that I'd be pretty much fine for a decent job at one of the many multinationals then joining the country.

If you take a look at eastern europe and asia they have the same knowledge as us but they also have that edge to create more opportunities for themselves.

I don't see R&D centers moving at the drop of a hat. Too much investment has gone into them. Companies don't create them with the aim of churning out a good bottom line. They exist to create new products.

Will China take work away from us? Of course... but then again it had 1/6th of the worlds population, right?

As far as IT graduates - frankly I don't think they are up to it. I studied IT for a few years in Ireland and the standard was quite poor (Granted it wasnt the best institute but still). People can indeed pass the classes but it's down to pure brain dump. Within tech in IReland you have a lot of skilled graduate jobs and I doubt they are all being filled by Irish students.

nesf

jhegarty wrote:

makes sence, but don't deal with hardware myself....its really the same thing with software , java/c++ but not enough to be of any use....

Honestly, I don't know much about the programming side of things other than that if you are planning on making money doing it you want to be good. There's a big oversupply of mediocre programmers from what I've heard.

Again, this is all second hand and anecdotal but I've heard enough people talking about it to give it some weight at least.

DublinWriter

nesf wrote:

From conversations with friends in the industry the most bemoaned thing I've heard of was the sheer lack of hardware knowledge and skills in graduates coming out of colleges at the moment. People seem to know a lot about Java/C++/etc but have only a surface knowledge of hardware in general.

Any business hiring an I.T. graduate and expecting to get a Mr.PC-Fixit really does deserve all they get.

Most of the replies confirm a suspicion that I've been having for a number of years; that I.T. is not taught correctly at third level in terms of the overall course structure.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those people who think that bringing in vendor certification into a degree programme is a good thing, quite the opposite.

But I think it's a case of the current third-level structure is too broad.

It's a bit like have a general BSc programme entitled 'Medicine' and from it you'd expect people to start working immediately as GP's, Nurses, Surgeons, Occupational Therapists, Radiographers, Anaesthetists, etc.

Perhaps arranging basic third level I.T. courses along the following four generic lines would be the answer?:

Cert/Diploma
1. Hardware Maintenance
2. Network Operations

Degree/Masters
1. Programming and System Design
2. Business Analysis and I.S. Strategy

I'd be interested to know from your personal experience how many of your colleagues in I.T., or people you've experienced working in I.T. in general, that'd you'd consider to be incompetent? (please don't mention either company or personal names).

nesf

DublinWriter wrote:

I'd be interested to know from your personal experience how many of your colleagues in I.T., or people you've experienced working in I.T. in general, that'd you'd consider to be incompetent? (please don't mention either company or personal names).

Most of the people I know are fairly good. A few are very good and their pay (for the most part) reflects it. There are one or two who are "trapped" at helpdesks (i.e. it's long gone past the stage of being a "stepping stone" tbh).

For the most part they picked up their skills in the years since leaving college but that's not that different to the majority of graduates I know in the workforce. A lot of them are working in areas that are completely unrelated to their degree/cert.

stepbar

DublinWriter wrote:

Any business hiring an I.T. graduate and expecting to get a Mr.PC-Fixit really does deserve all they get.

Most of the replies confirm a suspicion that I've been having for a number of years; that I.T. is not taught correctly at third level in terms of the overall course structure.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those people who think that bringing in vendor certification into a degree programme is a good thing, quite the opposite.

But I think it's a case of the current third-level structure is too broad.

It's a bit like have a general BSc programme entitled 'Medicine' and from it you'd expect people to start working immediately as GP's, Nurses, Surgeons, Occupational Therapists, Radiographers, Anaesthetists, etc.

Perhaps arranging basic third level I.T. courses along the following four generic lines would be the answer?:

Cert/Diploma
1. Hardware Maintenance
2. Network Operations

Degree/Masters
1. Programming and System Design
2. Business Analysis and I.S. Strategy

I'd be interested to know from your personal experience how many of your colleagues in I.T., or people you've experienced working in I.T. in general, that'd you'd consider to be incompetent? (please don't mention either company or personal names).

I agree wholeheartily. Take my scenario. I spent 5 years in college studying IT (Cert in Computer Apps and Support and then a Degree in Software Systems). Done all of the streams mentioned above. Now I work for a bank far removed from the world of IT. Thank God I was able to make that transition (I had to get a masters tho) because I dont think I would have got any other IT job but testing. I hate testing. Done it for 8 months and it was painful. However it was good experience. Hated programming as well. By the end of the 5 years I was sick of IT. Of the guys that I went to college with, a lot of them are working in crappy technical support jobs and testing roles. Two of them got real good jobs but they were uber smart. Another one of them is a recruitment consultant in IT!! Those of us who left IT did far better.

I'm not sure if its all to do with how IT subjects are taught. Like a lot of things, some have it and some dont. For a long time colleges were willing to take anybody who expressed an interest in IT. Maybe entrance exams might be an option?

jackbhoy

DublinWriter wrote:

But I think it's a case of the current third-level structure is too broad.

It's a bit like have a general BSc programme entitled 'Medicine' and from it you'd expect people to start working immediately as GP's, Nurses, Surgeons, Occupational Therapists, Radiographers, Anaesthetists, etc.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there.

The guys I've worked with from Asia only studied one technology/langauge for all 4 years of college. The colleges actually had affiliations with large IT companies who provided them with simulated production enviroments for lab work etc., they would then offer contracts to top grads every year. This lead to huge competition and a very high standard of graduate, on the downside their friends who didn't make the grade have no other options and end up working in call centres.

Only one subject, which I took in 3rd/4th year in college has been really relevant in my role now.

damnyanks

stepbar wrote:

I agree wholeheartily. Take my scenario. I spent 5 years in college studying IT (Cert in Computer Apps and Support and then a Degree in Software Systems). Done all of the streams mentioned above. Now I work for a bank far removed from the world of IT. Thank God I was able to make that transition (I had to get a masters tho) because I dont think I would have got any other IT job but testing. I hate testing. Done it for 8 months and it was painful. However it was good experience. Hated programming as well. By the end of the 5 years I was sick of IT. Of the guys that I went to college with, a lot of them are working in crappy technical support jobs and testing roles. Two of them got real good jobs but they were uber smart. Another one of them is a recruitment consultant in IT!! Those of us who left IT did far better.

I'm not sure if its all to do with how IT subjects are taught. Like a lot of things, some have it and some dont. For a long time colleges were willing to take anybody who expressed an interest in IT. Maybe entrance exams might be an option?

Guessing it's NCI. I did the cert there and left as soon as possible. The place is an absolute joke. The only reason graduates from there get tech support / bad IT jobs is because the place teachs at an insanly slow pace.


The problem with IT graduates in this country is that so many institutes have numerous IT courses but they don't teach you anything useful. I'm talking about degree's that last 4 years that could easily be taught in 2 years.

DCU is seen as the best or one of the best courses in the country but realistically this is the sort of stuff all IT gradutes should be doing.

stepbar

damnyanks wrote:

Guessing it's NCI. I did the cert there and left as soon as possible. The place is an absolute joke. The only reason graduates from there get tech support / bad IT jobs is because the place teachs at an insanly slow pace.


The problem with IT graduates in this country is that so many institutes have numerous IT courses but they don't teach you anything useful. I'm talking about degree's that last 4 years that could easily be taught in 2 years.

DCU is seen as the best or one of the best courses in the country but realistically this is the sort of stuff all IT gradutes should be doing.

LOL. Nail on the head. TBH NCI and IT dont compute. Took me 5 years to realise that..... As I've said thank god I was able to make the transition to business banking. They hopped on the bandwagon (like a lot of colleges) when IT was very popular. As you say they dont teach you anything useful.
Imagine teaching CORBA!!!. Where in hell would I use CORBA nowadays? Also the quality of students were questionable. Many a student had to get help from me and others.

But they are getting better, I think they have started to concentrate more on the IT / business side of things and less on programming.

damnyanks

Nope that approach is bad, and its why a lot of gradutes arent up to it. Business Information Systems type courses are light comp sci courses. These courses that do the mix usually focus on the softer side of both subjects instead of pushing the core stuff.

Then they graduate with an IT and Business degree but they just dont cut it for any job that requires technical skills (Bus or Comp). Then everyone says

"How can we have a graduate shortage - xxx graduates just came onto the market"

stepbar

Sorry, I have to disagree. Pure programmers are not exactly the best when it comes to understanding the needs businesses have. People that can combine both are highly sought after. A person that understands how much ten lines of code cost in terms of processing power and so on. Someone has to rein them in and keep control. Because at the end of the day companies produce pieces of software to make money and save other companies money.

Ok, maybe the problem is that colleges are churning out too many IT / Business students, but they still are needed.

nesf

stepbar wrote:

People that can combine both are highly sought after.

I agree but I think those people exist independently of the courses that mix business and IT. These are the kinds of people who if they only did IT would still have a good head for business and vice versa. Doing a course like BIS doesn't "create" them in any sense tbh.

DublinWriter

stepbar wrote:

Sorry, I have to disagree. Pure programmers are not exactly the best when it comes to understanding the needs businesses have. People that can combine both are highly sought after.

When I was in college in the late 80's and early 90's, the concept of the 'Hybrid Manager' was all the rage....people who would be 50/50 I.T. and Business. The Harvard Business Review extolled the virtues of such a creature and said that they would be the executive high-priests of the new millennium.

But what happened was basically that the internal I.T. and business camps of organisations hated and mistrusted each other so much that such a creature was never allowed evolve. Some did, and briefly became mutative CIO's, but name me a CIO of any Fortune 500 company that lasted more than 5 years in the position and was made CEO.

damnyanks

stepbar wrote:

Sorry, I have to disagree. Pure programmers are not exactly the best when it comes to understanding the needs businesses have. People that can combine both are highly sought after. A person that understands how much ten lines of code cost in terms of processing power and so on. Someone has to rein them in and keep control. Because at the end of the day companies produce pieces of software to make money and save other companies money.

Ok, maybe the problem is that colleges are churning out too many IT / Business students, but they still are needed.

Thats "commercial awareness" for instance at one stage I was writing algoritmic trading applications. I hadn't a clue about the products how it worked and so on. It was quick enough to pick up.

Going full in on business or comp sci will develop your intelectual capacity in that you will be able to understand different topics.

IF you go in with the comp sci / bus you aren't going to go into any depth and thus not come across the more difficult problems.

In theory business / comp sci degree's sound great but it just doesnt work.

Redisle

Oh i dont like the look of this at all, i always thought that good IT jobs were generally plentifull, i will be filling out the cao come next janruary and i had every intention of doing computer science in ucc or software dev and networking in cit but now im not so sure, are some of these courses really as inefficient as people are saying in this thread? .. i have always planned on doing some kind of computers in college because thats pretty much what i spend all my free time doing,im often called up to help out friends with computers etc.
If the IT job sector is really going downhill should i be considering some other course in college? I have always had a big interest in IT and as such thats what i was always aiming for, the only other thing i have thought about is electrical/electronic engineering, I would really hate to do a 4 year college course only to end up on an IT help desk, i am well able for help desk type support now before i even go to college so that kind of a job after college would be a joke tbh.
Sorry for going kind of off topic guys im just interested to know if i will be making the right decision by doing an IT course in college

nesf

ab_cork wrote:

Oh i dont like the look of this at all, i always thought that good IT jobs were generally plentifull, i will be filling out the cao come next janruary and i had every intention of doing computer science in ucc or software dev and networking in cit but now im not so sure, are some of these courses really as inefficient as people are saying in this thread? .. i have always planned on doing some kind of computers in college because thats pretty much what i spend all my free time doing,im often called up to help out friends with computers etc.
If the IT job sector is really going downhill should i be considering some other course in college? I have always had a big interest in IT and as such thats what i was always aiming for, the only other thing i have thought about is electrical/electronic engineering, I would really hate to do a 4 year college course only to end up on an IT help desk, i am well able for help desk type support now before i even go to college so that kind of a job after college would be a joke tbh.
Sorry for going kind of off topic guys im just interested to know if i will be making the right decision by doing an IT course in college

Think of it as being the same as any other degree and you'll be fine. If you are very good then you've a good chance of strolling into a well paid job. If you aren't then you'll enter the workforce at the lower rungs just like everyone else. If IT is something you like and you have a flair for then give it serious consideration, if you are only considering IT because you've heard that there is jobs in the sector but you know little about IT or have no real ability at it then I'd be cautious.

warrenaldo

I am a "recent graduat of an IT degree - $ year degree in one of Dublins IT's. I really enjoyed it - but my feelings towards the degree course where mentioned above - it was very very broad. We glanced over everything - rather than going in depth into anything particular.
It touched numerous parts of IT - and IT is very brad term. I believe if they offered college courses for particular roles. Ort say after 2 years let you choose to specialize.
For instance i left college and worked for a company programming in Java and C/C++. but others in my class(exact same course) went into project management, others into support and oters into sys admin. All such varied roles based on the same degree.
Surely if i wanted to be a programmer i could concentrate on that area.

Now its good to get a broad view. But maybe an employer doesnt care about that.

homeOwner

DublinWriter wrote:

I ask this because I know quite a lot of people currently working in I.T. who are deeply, deeply unhappy with the changing nature of industry and their chosen profession.

I know many who are unhappy with it not because its changing but because they find it boring and unfulfilling.

DublinWriter wrote:

Myself, I’ve been working in I.T. for 18 years man and boy, nine of which were as an employee and as being self-employed for the other nine.

I’ve seen quite a lot of changes in the business, not just in the technology (that’s a given) but in the whole way corporate I.T. seems to be run and managed, and not just for the better.

I've been working in IT in both Ireland and the US for 12 years, self employed for 7 years, full time for the rest...currently full time in a management position but still very hands on. I have seen changes, for me the biggest change I have noticed has been in the calibar of work being done in Ireland, it seemed to get really good in the early 2000s with lots of development work going on and now seems to be mostly help desk and maintenance work (but maybe that is just in the industries I have worked in).

DublinWriter wrote:

1) Poor I.T. Managment and Leadership
I see more and more companies shoe-horn failed middle-management from their business fast-track into I.T. and project management. Most of these people are typically ignorant to basic technical issues.

I have witnessed this throughout my 12 years in the industry. I used to think early in my career that my mgrs were brilliant and I would never get to their level, but looking back on it, most of them were awful managers and I just didnt know enough to know they were ****e. I can think of only 1 manager i have had contact with in the past 12 years who was actually brilliant, both tecnically and at managing people. He is the bench mark with which I measure all managers now.

DublinWriter wrote:

2) The threat of major I.T. companies moving out of Ireland
I see a lot of big-I.T. corporates set-up campus and R&D operations in Ireland. There tends to be a very complacent attitude among graduates recruited for such operations in relation to the relocation of their own jobs and they seem to think that they will always be able to innovate better than their Indian counterparts. Personally I think that’s a bogus argument, but more worryingly for them, China has it’s eyes on the prize and two years ago made teaching of English mandatory for all Chinese schools kids from age 4 and up. Personally, I think in the next 10-15 years, all big I.T. R&D will take place in the far east, with developers being paid a daily rate of what the current Irish wunderkind spends on Lattè in a day.

Any time I have worked on a development project in Ireland where part of it was outsourced to India, it had to be basically re-done when it was sent back. I find that alot of indian programmers come out of college with an almost uncanny ability to spout back the Java API verbatim, but you ask them to apply that and write some code and they cant do it without being handheld. This is a generalisation I know but it has been the exception rather than the rule to come across someone who will take ownership of a task and see it through properly. However, when I have worked in the US with Indian programmers (ie not outsourced) they have been mostly really competant and good at their jobs. Maybe only the better ones make it over there.

DublinWriter wrote:

3) The so-called skills crises.
One of my clients currently operates a helpdesk employing about 10 recent graduates of a well-known Irish 3rd level organisation (I won’t mention the client or college). The college wouldn’t exactly be called ‘prestigious’ and the only work most could find was working as first level helpdesk call-takers via an agency. Basically, they have been working as data-entry bods for the past nine months, yet businesses-leaders constantly drone-on about the lack of I.T. graduates in Ireland.

I am currently recruiting for an intermediate level programmer and without exception all the cvs I am getting in are terrible, most of the applicants only have help desk experience and know practially nothing about java or J2EE nor have they bothered to even look up anything about it before the interview knowing it is a requirement for the job. I dont know if this is the fault of the agencies working for us or our HR department who are not screening cvs correctly but I can only presume there is a real shortage of skilled programmers in ireland at the moment. Maybe graduates are not hungry for work, like I was when I left college. I would never have turned up to an interview without at least reading up on some of the technical skills that were requred just to be able to say I know something about it. Its like as if applicants only want to work with what they learned in college and the idea of learning something themselves at home is alien to them. Or maybe I am just being too harsh and frustrated because i cant fill the role

Not sure if I am agreeing or disagreeing with you Dublin Writer, i have seen changes but not the same ones that you have. I am a bit disillusioned with the IT industry myself but not just in ireland, i see it in the US too. In fact I think alot more cutting edge and better quality work is being done over here in the industries I have worked in.

homeOwner

DublinWriter wrote:

I ask this because I know quite a lot of people currently working in I.T. who are deeply, deeply unhappy with the changing nature of industry and their chosen profession.

I know many who are unhappy with it not because its changing but because they find it boring and unfulfilling.

DublinWriter wrote:

Myself, I’ve been working in I.T. for 18 years man and boy, nine of which were as an employee and as being self-employed for the other nine.

I’ve seen quite a lot of changes in the business, not just in the technology (that’s a given) but in the whole way corporate I.T. seems to be run and managed, and not just for the better.

I've been working in IT in both Ireland and the US for 12 years, self employed for 7 years, full time for the rest...currently full time in a management position but still very hands on. I have seen changes, for me the biggest change I have noticed has been in the calibar of work being done in Ireland, it seemed to get really good in the early 2000s with lots of development work going on and now seems to be mostly help desk and maintenance work (but maybe that is just in the industries I have worked in).

DublinWriter wrote:

1) Poor I.T. Managment and Leadership
I see more and more companies shoe-horn failed middle-management from their business fast-track into I.T. and project management. Most of these people are typically ignorant to basic technical issues.

I have witnessed this throughout my 12 years in the industry. I used to think early in my career that my mgrs were brilliant and I would never get to their level, but looking back on it, most of them were awful managers and I just didnt know enough to know they were ****e. I can think of only 1 manager i have had contact with in the past 12 years who was actually brilliant, both tecnically and at managing people. He is the bench mark with which I measure all managers now.

DublinWriter wrote:

2) The threat of major I.T. companies moving out of Ireland
I see a lot of big-I.T. corporates set-up campus and R&D operations in Ireland. There tends to be a very complacent attitude among graduates recruited for such operations in relation to the relocation of their own jobs and they seem to think that they will always be able to innovate better than their Indian counterparts. Personally I think that’s a bogus argument, but more worryingly for them, China has it’s eyes on the prize and two years ago made teaching of English mandatory for all Chinese schools kids from age 4 and up. Personally, I think in the next 10-15 years, all big I.T. R&D will take place in the far east, with developers being paid a daily rate of what the current Irish wunderkind spends on Lattè in a day.

Any time I have worked on a development project in Ireland where part of it was outsourced to India, it had to be basically re-done when it was sent back. I find that alot of indian programmers come out of college with an almost uncanny ability to spout back the Java API verbatim, but you ask them to apply that and write some code and they cant do it without being handheld. This is a generalisation I know but it has been the exception rather than the rule to come across someone who will take ownership of a task and see it through properly. However, when I have worked in the US with Indian programmers (ie not outsourced) they have been mostly really competant and good at their jobs. Maybe only the better ones make it over there.

DublinWriter wrote:

3) The so-called skills crises.
One of my clients currently operates a helpdesk employing about 10 recent graduates of a well-known Irish 3rd level organisation (I won’t mention the client or college). The college wouldn’t exactly be called ‘prestigious’ and the only work most could find was working as first level helpdesk call-takers via an agency. Basically, they have been working as data-entry bods for the past nine months, yet businesses-leaders constantly drone-on about the lack of I.T. graduates in Ireland.

I am currently recruiting for an intermediate level programmer and without exception all the cvs I am getting in are terrible, most of the applicants only have help desk experience and know practially nothing about java or J2EE nor have they bothered to even look up anything about it before the interview knowing it is a requirement for the job. I dont know if this is the fault of the agencies working for us or our HR department who are not screening cvs correctly but I can only presume there is a real shortage of skilled programmers in ireland at the moment. Maybe graduates are not hungry for work, like I was when I left college. I would never have turned up to an interview without at least reading up on some of the technical skills that were requred just to be able to say I know something about it. Its like as if applicants only want to work with what they learned in college and the idea of learning something themselves at home is alien to them. Or maybe I am just being too harsh and frustrated because i cant fill the role

Not sure if I am agreeing or disagreeing with you Dublin Writer, i have seen changes but not the same ones that you have. I am a bit disillusioned with the IT industry myself but not just in ireland, i see it in the US too. In fact I think alot more cutting edge and better quality work is being done over here in the industries I have worked in.

DublinWriter

ab_cork wrote:

Oh i dont like the look of this at all, i always thought that good IT jobs were generally plentifull, i will be filling out the cao come next janruary and i had every intention of doing computer science in ucc or software dev and networking in cit but now im not so sure, are some of these courses really as inefficient as people are saying in this thread? .. i have always planned on doing some kind of computers in college because thats pretty much what i spend all my free time doing,im often called up to help out friends with computers etc.
...
Sorry for going kind of off topic guys im just interested to know if i will be making the right decision by doing an IT course in college

The only, and best, advice I could give you ab_cork is do what you love.

In the 80's I saw a lot of people going into electronic engineering for the sole reason that they thought that they would be making big money. Things were pretty tight back then and career-options were very thin on the ground. Most I knew who took this path hated it.

Life's really too short, if you are just doing something because you think there will be big money, they you'll get burned.

Again, I was talking recently to a barrister friend of mine and slagging him about some of the massive money he gets (bastard!). He said the most successful barristers are ones 'who love the law' and told me that people going into barristering just for the money soon drop out.

There is one interesting thing I remembered recently in the example I gave about my client's helpdesk and the recent IT graduates employed on it as basic data entry people: nearly all of them told me that they hated programming and didn't want to do it as a career. Very strange considering they were IT graduates!

A lot of people seem to be backing me up in my argument that most IT BSc's are too general in nature. You really need to be focused about the particular area of IT you want to get into, or you'll just drift and won't get skilled in your first few years of employment. You also want to steer clear of areas that the world and its mother is getting into, where there are too many people already skilled up in that area.

The following is one of the best sites I've seen regarding what skills are currently in demand in the UK world. Granted it's for the UK, but it's not a million-miles off the situation here:

http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/

underworld

How about a BSc in "computer networks & systems mgmt" is this a more defined course?

the_syco

I find that many people in IT fall into the following:

• don't have a clue about it, but want money
• don't have a clue, but IT is meant to be the next big thing
• hates their course/job but cos they've done a year of it, thought they'd stick it out
• has a clue on what they want, and are doing what it takes
• likes IT, knows that some parts are crap, but likes it anyhoos
• likes IT, but are naive about it
• has a honours degree in Computer Science, but still hasn't figured out what the "on" button does on the PC

DublinWriter wrote:

Any business hiring an I.T. graduate and expecting to get a Mr.PC-Fixit really does deserve all they get.

Thats the main reason why you need a degree and 6 months in an unrelated tech support job to get a "proper" job.

=-=

Lots of people mention their course being too broad. The problem is not the college, but the business world. Think of it this way: a college taught only C. Then, by the end of the 4 year course, C++ or C# is being used by the companies. You know have 200 programmers who aren't needed. The only way to go forward would be for a company to have control over what is taught, so that when the course ends, the programmer is usefull.

homeOwner wrote:

without exception all the cvs I am getting in are terrible, most of the applicants only have help desk experience

Classic chicken and egg thing. No-one will get a job with no relevent experience, but no-one can get a job to get experience with.

=-=

Me? I love IT. Been through a few different helpdesk's, the current one being cool. I'll do helpdesks for another 3 or 4 years, I'd say. A year more in the current job, and then to either a goverment IT support, or a IT support for a bank. Many see helpdesks as a dead end, but I see it as a continuation of what I like doing: fixing stuff. My long term plan is to support one application/system. And thats not impossible. There's a few systems out there where you can concentrate on (Citrix, Cisco, Lotus Notes) that you can make a living from.

ab_cork, do what you like doing. Or you'll either drop out of the course you hate, or do it, do a job you hate, only to take up an IT job later in life anyway.

MrSquishSquash

I'd agree that A "Bsc in CS" is probably to broad put it does give a good foundation to be built on later and so is applicable to most companies in the industry. I'm currently finishing my 3rd year in CS and found that there's so much theory involved you never get to actually see where or how it's being applied. I've briefly worked with two IT companies(summer work), first as a developer & 2nd in QA and the attitude does hit me as complacent & lax in that people think the work will be here in 10 years but it also hit me as of a high quality. Maybe if undergrads were encouraged to volunteer & assist in open source projects such as on sourceforge.net they'd get the relevant experience they needed!

damnyanks

Putting that into the context of the gradutes entering the work force they usually get the training and so on required to convert them into knowledgable people.

Any big multinational company will have a graduate scheme where they send you for at least a few weeks technical training. You then do the whole on the job learning.

Some companies go further and stick you on a 6 - 12 month "training scheme".

I'm guessing its typically the people who cant land a graduate position that end up moving into help desk work where they dont get the opportunity to learn about the area which they really want to move into.

IF you can get any relevant experience during your degree it goes a huge way to getting you a graduate program job.

Obviously these are not the be all and end all of entry level jobs, but it gives you a lot of exposure you would otherwise not get.

underworld

How about a BSc in "computer networks & systems mgmt" is this a more defined course?

Redisle

Thanks for the advice guys, and yes i really like IT and computers and it is most definetly what i am good at so i will probably go for one of the IT courses in cork now to choose which one Ill probably either do computer science in ucc or software dev and networking in cit im sure ill be able to decide come janruary
Thanks again for the advice

damnyanks

underworld wrote:

How about a BSc in "computer networks & systems mgmt" is this a more defined course?

Title doesn't count for anything its the content. If its at a University as opposed to an IT or college it will probably have more grounding towards understanding the subject as opposed to working with the latest and greatest tools in that particular area.

underworld

The networking side of the course includes the following,would be interested to know how people would rate the following material on the course on an overall level,i know there is alot there!:)



Year 1
Introduction to ComputerNetworks
Background & Concepts; Peer-to-Peer communications; Encapsulation; 7-Layer OSI Model; TCP/IP Architecture; Model comparison. Emerging technologies e.g. Broadband, Wireless, Voice & Data convergence;
Network Media and Signals

Copper and fibre; Media connectors – RJ45, BNC, etc.; Basics of analogue and digital signals; Bandwidth, propagation time, attenuation, reflection, noise, distortion and collisions, Modulation and Encoding; Multiplexing – TDM, FDM; Simplex/Half- and Full-duplex transmission.
Wireless; Types of signal, signal characteristics - frangibility, directionality, range.
LANs and WANs
Topologies - Bus, star, extended star, point-to-point; Ethernet/IEEE 802.3, broadcast, CSMA/CD; Wireless / IEEE 802.11;
Repeaters, hubs, bridges, switches, routers. Communication satellites.
Overview of WANs: Circuit Switching, Packet Switching, Routing techniques
Network card, frames, MAC addressing;
Structured Cabling
EIA/TIA-568B; Wiring and testing; Cancellation.
IP Basics
IP address as binary numbers, classes of address; ARP and RARP; ICMP
OSI Layers 7, 6, 5 and 4
Application, Presentation, and Session layers; Transport Layer: Flow Control, establishing a connection, windowing and acknowledgements. TCP/IP: Protocol stack; Applications; TCP Segments, port numbers, TCP sliding window and acknowledgements; Basic UDP; DNS & FTP.

Year 2

The Network Layer and Routing
Hierarchical addressing, network layer protocol operation, Routed vs. routing protocols, multiprotocol routing, static vs. dynamic routes; Distance vector vs. Link state routing protocols, problems and solutions (e.g. count-to-infinity and split horizon/poison reverse).

Intermediate IP
Subnetting (addressing, masking, planning). IPv4 vs. IPv6 addressing.
Routing Protocols
Dynamic Routing Operations; Representing Distance with Metrics; Classes of Routing Protocols; Time to Convergence; Distance Vector Concept; Interior or Exterior Routing Protocols; Interior IP Routing Protocols; RIP and IGRP.
Router configuration.
LAN Switching
Congestion and Bandwidth; Segmentation with LAN Switches; Spanning Tree; Symmetric Switching; Asymmetric Switching; Switching Methods;
LAN Design
LAN Design Goals; Design Methodology, wired vs. wireless; Developing a LAN Topology – Layer 1: Extended Star Topology; Layer 2 – Switching; Layer 3: Router for Segmentation; Server Placement. Voice & Data convergence implications;
Virtual LANs
Introduction to VLANs; Frame Filtering; Frame Tagging; VLANs Establish Broadcast
Domains; Port-Centric VLANs; Static and Dynamic VLANs;
Point-to-Point Protocol (PPP)
Point-to-Point Protocol (PPP) Overview; Layering PPP Elements; PPP Operation; PPP Frame Formats; PPP LCP Configuration Options; PPP Link Negotiation; PPP Authentication Overview; Selecting a PPP Authentication Protocol.
High speed Networking Technologies
Broadband, trends, ADSL technology, Cable, ATM technology

Year 3

Scalable Internetworking
Reliable and available; Responsive; Efficient; Adaptable; Accessible but secure.
OSPF algorithm; Autonomous Systems: Characteristics of an AS.
Remote Access Networking
Asynchronous and Digital remote users, teleworking;
Network Management
Manager/Agent, MIB, SNMP; Structure of Management Information (SMI); ASN.1; OSI Management Categories: Fault, Configuration, Accounting, Performance and Security.
Network Security Systems
Firewalls (packet level, application level); wrappers and proxy servers; SSL, IPSEC; DMZ: router configurations, intranet and internet issues; Security tools, e.g. IIS, TCP wrapper.
Access Lists
What are Access Lists? How Access Lists Work - A List of Tests: Deny or Permit; Wildcard Mask Bits; Where to Place IP Access Lists.
Network Applications
Domain Name System; Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol; Dynamic DNS; SMTP mailers, mail relay, HTTP, FTP; Directory services: X.500, LDAP, etc.
Voice over IP technologies
Voice: characteristics, digitisation of voice, RTP, H.323, SIP; PBX; circuit vs. packet switching; adapting IP infrastructure to support voice, cost savings, convergence.

Wireless LANs
IEEE 802.11, wireless LANs, Wi-Fi, WiMAX, WEP, WPA, implementation, restrictions, uses, security;

Year 4

Data Communications & Security/Cryptography

DublinWriter

underworld wrote:

How about a BSc in "computer networks & systems mgmt" is this a more defined course?

At a BSc level, I think there shoud be three basic strata that should be offered:
1) I.T. Operations (inc. Risk management, Network operations, P.C. build and configuaraton, etc)
2) Programming
3) I.S. Strategy

BostonB

If you like IT avoid the boring work by keeping your skills up to date and be prepared to move around to get where you want. Self analyse your skills, would you hire yourself etc. Rate your own skills etc. That said if you are keen you probably have your head in a IT book or are always playing with IT stuff anyway.

leeroybrown

In terms of 'I.T.' education the first issue I see is that the emergence of the 'I.T.' industry resulted in traditional Computer Science courses morphing into hybrid courses that are expected to produce skilled graduates for a wide range of areas. You end up with graduate programmers who still equate software development with the number of languages they 'know', graduate sys admins who have no decent experience with any server operating system, graduate network engineers who have a basic knowledge of TCP/IP and a few hours experience plugging cables into switches, etc. Those that emerge with a good knowledge of any specific area do so mainly through their own initiative and not through course content.

The second issue I see is the failing of 'I.T.' education to engender that sense of interest and initiative along with some basic skills. After four years of full time education and a college degree you would hope that most had gained the ability to use google productively but even that seems to be asking too much.

Personally speaking I actually view 'I.T.' as term of abuse that sums up all that is bad about the industry, and as something you tell people when you know it will be awkward to explain your job to them. This is despite working as a a Sys Admin, albeit in an unusual niche area. I wouldn't want to work in a generic 'I.T.' job as it wouldn't keep my interest for very long. My previous two jobs were in software development but both got boring fairly quickly and I moved away from development as I didn't see many jobs on the horizon with the right long term challenge.

One specific thing I notice about 'I.T.' as a career is the number of people who have been deciding to leave it. There appears to be a 10 year itch whereby a lot of people have lost any interest or motivation they had and are only left what we all know 'I.T.' can be at it's worst - boring, facile, impersonal drudgery. If anything this probably references to the point DublinWriter made at the start of the thead about the lack of quality leadership and management.

Nermal

underworld wrote:

How about a BSc in "computer networks & systems mgmt" is this a more defined course?

You should be aiming higher. Do computer science, at the best university you can get in to. Do not do IS, MIS, networks, stay the hell away from institutes.

You are supposed to be learning theory. That means maths, classic algorithms, general principles and concepts. And don't settle for a helpdesk when you graduate.

DublinWriter

Nermal wrote:

You should be aiming higher. Do computer science, at the best university you can get in to. Do not do IS, MIS, networks, stay the hell away from institutes. You are supposed to be learning theory. That means maths, classic algorithms, general principles and concepts.

Firstly, what's the best possible job you could get with a computer science BSc? Programmer?

Some people don't like/have an aptitute for programming but love networks etc. There's also a lot of money to be made in the areas of I.T. Security and Risk Management. Horses for courses.

Consider how the big five (or however many there are now) I.T. Consultancies recruit graduates. They don't just recruit computer science graduates for the analyst and manager track, they recruit any one with a 2.1/First from the 2 or 3 most 'prestigious' third level institutes in the country.

In a funny way, I think having a computer science degree is a hindrance if you want to get ahead seriously in corporate I.T.

Nermal wrote:

And don't settle for a helpdesk when you graduate.

Some don't have the luxury of choice.

nesf

Nermal wrote:

And don't settle for a helpdesk when you graduate.

I disagree, while I've known people to get trapped there I've also known people to do a year or two at a helpdesk and then moving up the ladder. If you can avoid it great, but if you can't it's not the end of the world or anything.

damnyanks

There are plenty of opportunites out there for anyone who puts the effort in. I've never had to work on a help desk. It's not an area I ever hope to go into. At least not first or second level.

Point is, given the current climate a graduate can easily avoid help desk jobs.

underworld

Nermal wrote:

You should be aiming higher. Do computer science, at the best university you can get in to. Do not do IS, MIS, networks, stay the hell away from institutes.

You are supposed to be learning theory. That means maths, classic algorithms, general principles and concepts. And don't settle for a helpdesk when you graduate.

Ya all that stuff you mentioned is being covered on my course maths ,algorithms and all that.id be going for a network engineer job or similar line thats why computer science would be no good to me...

Nehpets

I am very confused on what to do regarding college choices