Arrogant Docs

2Scoops

This might be a sensitive subject for some, but I'd interested in hearing what Bio&Med boardsies think of the negative stereotype of the arrogant doctor.

Just to elaborate, the kind of stereotype I'm talking about would be similar to some of these random comments:

They think they know everything; have a superiority complex, that their training is intellectually superior to that of most other professions; elitist - intellectually and/or financially; feel they have the authority to comment on many aspects of physiology or science they aren't really familiar with; can be rude to people not as smart as they are (not just to lay-people, but even young interns vs. teaching professors).

I don't expect anyone here to agree with these comments of course:) There are arrogant people in most walks of life but a label has certainly stuck with doctors in particular - that is undeniable. I know more than a few myself and some of them are, well, jerks. Is it just jealousy or the by-product of a deep-rooted resentment of overachieving Leaving Cert students? Is there a negative element in medicine that gives a bad name to the rest? Do their training environment and social relationships foster arrogant behaviour? Have you encountered nasty side-effects of this negative attitude and, if so, how did you react?

Discuss.

DublinWriter

I think you may be referring to the 'God-Complex'.

I worked for a major global Pharma company in the mid-90's for about 3 years and used to encounter lots of GPs, specialists, SHO's and Senior Consultants.

Typically the consultants were the worst when it came to suffering from the 'God Complex', but this has changed a lot in the last 10 years. GP's were usually the most down to earth, but I did meet some absolute beauts.

What I found was that the over-intellectual and emotionally-unintelligent ones were the most hateful to deal with. Their careers would shine brilliantly for 5-8 years, then they'd fizzle out. The real leaders and geniuses would go on for years more as they'd inspire several generations of students to follow them, as they had the emotional IQ to back them up.

R.D.Laing was a great example of the latter in the field of mental health.

Schlemm

What I found when I was in 6th year (which is fairly recently) and we were filling out our CAO forms, a lot of people were chosing to do medicine because of the fact that the points are the highest and it's prestigious. People who hated science subjects and had never expressed an interest in the medical world were suddenly going crazy to become doctors.

In my opinion, very few of them would have made good doctors, and had very little acumen for that spark that makes a good physician, both intellectually and emotionally. Funnily enough, a lot of them put law as their 2nd CAO choice, rather than applying for a medical area instead, which shows how interested they really were. To them, medicine was a power trip, and I could imagine them becoming arrogant doctors with the wrong interests at heart.

By and large, the whole medical profession is seen through a very self-centered paradigm by a lot of school leavers, and you don't hear many people who apply for medicine with a genuine passion for helping people, learning about the human body, and who think about the medical profession in a larger or broader context, both socially, globally, ethically, past, present or future.

I wonder has it always been this way, or is this a recent phenomenon...when you were at school, what sort of people were wanting to do medicine? Has it been perceived as a powerful job or was it centered on healing the sick? If you look at the images of doctors in our society, on TV shows and movies, they are all too often portrayed as bigshots with a lot of power, influence, and money. Has the lack of real life/hands on experience for medical students and school leavers contributed to this image, and caused some doctors to lose their focus in their jobs?

Kevster

Hey,


I spent two weeks in St. James' Hospital 3 years ago and witnessed unnaceptable treatment of an elderly patient by a group of doctors. They were literally laughing at him behind his back. However - you are right - this type of person will be found in every walk of life. I prefer female doctors to male though; they are more sympathetic.


Kevin.

metrovelvet

There is no one I hate more than the Irish consultant! [and they run in my family and I still hate them]

In the US I have 4 doctors and I have gone out of my way to find either women or asian men because I find your average white over privaleged male to not listen nor to be patient centred. They are attracted to the money and status, and not into healing.

When Im in Ireland I do the same, look for foreign doctors but its much harder to find them. The foreign ones dont have that blackrock college graduate attitude.

2Scoops

Schlemm wrote:

I wonder has it always been this way, or is this a recent phenomenon...when you were at school, what sort of people were wanting to do medicine? Has it been perceived as a powerful job or was it centered on healing the sick? If you look at the images of doctors in our society, on TV shows and movies, they are all too often portrayed as bigshots with a lot of power, influence, and money. Has the lack of real life/hands on experience for medical students and school leavers contributed to this image, and caused some doctors to lose their focus in their jobs?

Well, in my school I don't think anyone wanted to be doctor - we certainly had some smart students but I guess it didn't have the same allure to a non-metropolitan public school population. The smartest ones I remember were mostly interested in actuary and law - 2 other status job favorites:)

When I went to university though and met the people that actually made it to medical school, they were mostly unpleasant people. That's massively unfair to the ones who did get into it for the right reasons, though.

I think the status of the doctor is less than it was before. Many people used to respect their GPs a hell of a lot - now they're the doctors who couldn't cut it with the big boys; jack of all trades, master of none. Their medical knowledge is usually the most general (i.e. the least specific) of all doctors and their opinions on some medical matters are usually no more informed than a well-read housewife. But they do have lots more time for golf!

UrbanFox

metrovelvet wrote:

The foreign ones dont have that blackrock college graduate attitude.

What is the blackrock college graduate attitude ?

Robbiethe3rd

I am currently medical tudnt myself and I personnally think what you are saying is a unfair. Me, I repeated my leaving cert to get a place, I didnt do it for anyone or for money or prestige etc. I did it for me, I wanted to help people. I expected there would be loads of arrogant people in my year only interested in money and althoug there are a couple, the majority of people are incredible compassionate people who worked really hard in thir leaving, not for their own pride or whatever, but because they had similar reasons to me.

Granted things may change in years to come, I really dont think the average student who makes it to medical school is this arrogant/affluent character you're making them out to be!
2scoops, as for gps, there is huge competition for gp training places and the ones chosen are usually of a very high standard. What you say about general & non-specific, that may be somewhat true but they need to know a fair amount every region of medicine, the more specialised your training, the less you appreciate the entire body, eg cardiologists only interest themselves in the heart.

tallaght01

I wouldn't give this thread too much time. It's more a reflection of the uninformed stereotyping that still exists about doctors. I came from a school where nobody had ever gone to medical schol before, and a family where nobody had ever gone to medical schol, and an estate where nobody had ever gone to medical school. I had the same worries, because I listened to views like those above from my neighbours and my extended family and my friends. I thought the world of medicine would be full of arrogant tossers.
When I got to uni, the case couldn't have been more different.

There were 250 ppl in my class. Some were twats, some were absoloute legends. But most fell within the realms of normality. ie there were as many arrogant people in my class as I would have expected in the general populus. there were as many shy people as you would expect to meet in a sample that size. There were as many extroverts as you would expect to meet in any population of that size. In essence, they were normal people.

People should also bear in mind the following:

1) doctors work more hours than virtually anybody else in the country for the sake of the punters. We sure as hell don't do it for the money or anything else. I'm a single 29 year old bloke who's just been in a nightclub tonight for the first time in months. I met up ith me non medical mates who are getting married, or are in stable relationships and basically doing things with their lives, while I basically just live to work. I don't know how anybody could do this job for status or whatever it is some of the posters think motivates us.

2) For the person who talks about consultants. Maybe those in your family aren't very pleasant for other reasons. The consultants I work with represent the normal spectrum of the population. Some are awful people, some are amazing. Most fall in between. I really don't know what else I can say. there are a few thousand consultants in Ireland I would imgagine. You can't just tar that many people with the same brush.

3) I think the behaviour of a doctor changes in the time it takes to become a consultant. Partially this is because of the sheer amount of abuse you take in your junior years. I have been literally screamed at by any member of hospital staff you care to mention in my time as a junior. When I started I was meek and pretty timid. Now I can be very vocal and I'm very confident when somebody tries to shout at me. Some have said I've become more arrogant. perhaps this is the case. I think I've just developed a thick skin. I can't emphasise enough the sheer levels of abuse junior doctors take in hospitals. I'm sure the other docs on this thread will back me up. It's possible tis may be reflected in peoples' demeanour when they reach consultant level.

4) There is now huge competition for GP posts. they're very well paid, and do less hours than the rest of us. Fair play to them. But huge competition means they get very good candidates becoming GPs. GPs treat about 90% of all illnesses and use only about 10% of healthcare resources doing that. They are, by and large, a talented bunch at what they do. They stop the hospitals going into total meltdown by treating most things in their surgeries without referring them on.

In conclusion, medical students have aways been unpopular with students of other disciplines at university. This is probably because of a deep seated jealousy. I have no idea what there is to be jealous about,but there you have it.

When we grow up, scientists hate us, because we are well educated in all the biological sciences. The PhDs hate us because we can call ourselves "doctor". Managers hate us because we are difficult to manage. Some of the public hate us because they know what we're really like. They know we're all cocky and arrogant.

I don't know what motivates the original poster. We try our best against a failing system. Anecdotes such as those posted can be posted about any other group of people. Posters here are acting like they are experts in the behaviour of however many thousands of docs there are in Ireland. It is ill informed opinion. People have the right to their opinions. I'm sure I will change nobody's opinion with what I have said. So I'll leave it at that. I won't be revisiting this thread.

DrIndy

Don't know where this thread is going. There is a lot of general resentment towards the medical profession, but the interesting thing is people who voice this like their own individual doctor - but hate the rest.

It is a sweeping generalisation to say all doctors are arrogant. That can be said of anyone in any walk of life if you never met them....

Also I don't understand the "blackrock college" element - most people in my class came from a pretty ordinary background and only a handful went to a private school. Those who graduate from those schools tend to be drawn into Commerce, Law or BE$$ rather than medicine

Zillah

I work in a hospital, and I must say consultants, in general, are usually quite arrogant/condescending. Obviously not all of them, but far more of them than say, the nurses or the ladies who do the tea

InFront

Yes, but what would the cleaners say about the nurses?
Talk for longer than five minutes to one of them and they'll probably start talking about how bossy/ racist/ condescending the nurses are. Cleaners and tea ladies say this about nurses, interns say it about matrons, matrons say it about consultants, consultants say it about consultant surgeons... it all culminates somewhere with the Minister for Health.
It's a "who-do-they-think-they-are-ism" relating to anyone in the order of hospital merit (which is a very defined order) who is perceived to be more senior/ valuable/ well paid.

Of course there are arrogant doctors, but they are arrogant citizens/ husbands/ aunties/ neighbours too. Arrogance doesn't clock on at 9 o'clock, and if you think they're arrogant because they're doctors, or they're doctors so they're arrogant, you're just wrong... and that's not arrogance, I'm not a qualified doctor!:p

metrovelvet

Blackrock college attitude - its a figure of speech - using non -literal language to describe something.

I dont think all doctors are arrogant. I don't think asian men or women doctors are arrogant for example and I prefer them, better listeners, more patient centred.

Also - I speak from the patient's perspective, having been really ill and hospitalised and having seen my father through terminal illness. When you are that vulnerable, they do seem incredibly arrogant.

Zillah

InFront wrote:

Yes, but what would the cleaners say about the nurses?
Talk for longer than five minutes to one of them and they'll probably start talking about how bossy/ racist/ condescending the nurses are. Cleaners and tea ladies say this about nurses, interns say it about matrons, matrons say it about consultants, consultants say it about consultant surgeons... it all culminates somewhere with the Minister for Health.
It's a "who-do-they-think-they-are-ism" relating to anyone in the order of hospital merit (which is a very defined order) who is perceived to be more senior/ valuable/ well paid.

Of course there are arrogant doctors, but they are arrogant citizens/ husbands/ aunties/ neighbours too. Arrogance doesn't clock on at 9 o'clock, and if you think they're arrogant because they're doctors, or they're doctors so they're arrogant, you're just wrong... and that's not arrogance, I'm not a qualified doctor!:p

I work reception, which is essentially the communication hub for the hospital, so I deal with all of these people, and in my personal experience, and the opinions of others, consultants, on average, are more arrogant/supercillious than any other group.

Jimoslimos

metrovelvet wrote:

I dont think all doctors are arrogant. I don't think asian men or women doctors are arrogant for example and I prefer them, better listeners, more patient centred.

Whoa there! from experiences of myself and others I can say that asian or female doctors can be just as arrogant as their white male counterparts. However I wouldn't say overall that doctors are any more arrogant than any other over-worked and stressed-out worker*

tallaght01 wrote:

When we grow up, scientists hate us, because we are well educated in all the biological sciences.

Eh?? I've got no problem with a well-educated doctor who knows and understands the science behind the disease/diagnosis and treatment. In fact I'd prefer it.




*That is until they reach consultant level. Lack of work leads to boredom and frustration. This manifests itself as frequent outbursts of sheer arrogance among this group;)

donaghs

Irish Consultants recently described a public sector salary offer of €205,000 as Mickey Mouse.

The average industrial wage in Ireland is €32,000.

PJ Breen, another hospital consultant and negotiator for the IHCA, asked: "What kind of house could you buy for €205,000?" !!!!!?????!!!!!

2Scoops

Jimoslimos wrote:

Eh?? I've got no problem with a well-educated doctor who knows and understands the science behind the disease/diagnosis and treatment. In fact I'd prefer it.

Ditto.

Donaghs wrote:

Irish Consultants recently described a public sector salary offer of €205,000 as Mickey Mouse.

The average industrial wage in Ireland is €32,000.

PJ Breen, another hospital consultant and negotiator for the IHCA, asked: "What kind of house could you buy for €205,000?" !!!!!?????!!!!!

Maybe we should start a new thread called "Greedy Docs":) Just kidding...

I think it's not the actual figure that's the problem, but the fact that they can earn twice as much doing the same job somewhere else. I can empathize with that, at least. But staying on topic, the more revealing thing from this episode is the way the union was arguing that any scabs who apply for the new positions will be of inferior quality, are going for the 'easy option' and the patients will suffer.

metrovelvet

Jimoslimos wrote:

Whoa there! from experiences of myself and others I can say that asian or female doctors can be just as arrogant as their white male counterparts. However I wouldn't say overall that doctors are any more arrogant than any other over-worked and stressed-out worker*

Everyone has their prejudices, those are mine. Ask any woman who wants a GYN and she will have a preference for a man or a woman.

I was in the waiting rrom of the GYN yestersday and there was a debate, man or woman. To my surprise many of the women prefer a male GYN, saying the women are "too rough" and think they know everything because they are women too.

I was referred to a very camp flaming Obstetrician whom I just couldn't take seriously. I'm sorry but I couldnt.

The thing is, you dont have your average stressed out worker diagnosing you, asking for stool samples, investigating your body, or making decisions that can affect your life and well being.

donaghs

2Scoops wrote:

Ditto.

I think it's not the actual figure that's the problem, but the fact that they can earn twice as much doing the same job somewhere else. I can empathize with that, at least. But staying on topic, the more revealing thing from this episode is the way the union was arguing that any scabs who apply for the new positions will be of inferior quality, are going for the 'easy option' and the patients will suffer.

The public/private sector difference is something the rest of us "mere mortals" also have to face. I miss a lot of the perks in my old Co Council job, but I get more pay, experience and promotion in my private sector job. Similarly, many people know they could earn more doing their job in the US. Some prefer to live in Ireland. I think some consultants are just living on another planet.

I did find the remarks about the "cushy number" very interesting. They have no respect at all for work they do in the public sector. For them, public sector work is the guaranteed base salary job-for-life, treating low-income plebs. The private sector work is the real icing on the cake, where the real money can be made.

Zillah

donaghs wrote:

PJ Breen, another hospital consultant and negotiator for the IHCA, asked: "What kind of house could you buy for €205,000?" !!!!!?????!!!!!

Does he mean to imply he should be able to buy a new house every year...?

nesf

I don't know about that whole consultant thing. I've found in my personal experience that med students and young doctors can be very arrogant and consultants are more down to earth and reasonable. GPs vary between the two poles.

Nothing beats arrogant med students who think they actually know it all though because they've cut up some body part or other.


Actually, the most variable bunch I've come across are midwives, they vary between being stupidly arrogant and being lovely and down to earth. I don't know, I think a lot of it comes down to how you come across yourself rather the person themselves.

Saintly

Why label an entire profession with anything? Most of the docs I have worked with are decent, friendly people, with a genuine interest in their patients. The patient population is changing - people are better educated, more informed and are aware of their rights as a patient. Hospitals have complaints procedures now and an obligation to make patients aware of them. I honestly think that these factors have helped cause a shift in the doctor/patient dynamic.

In my experience arrogance among staff members (whoever they are) is generally tackled by patients and/or other staff members. I can remember one reg, who WAS particularly arrogant told a family that 'an animal would take better care of it's parent." This was an elderly, much cherished lady in her 80's on her second hospital admission (ever!)- the family were seeking a private nursing home placement for her - which they obtained in a matter of days. The comment was made quite loudly in the middle of a six bed ward. Three other patients (two quite elderly themselves) complained, the family complained and the nursing team leader, the consultant and I sat down with the reg to 'work on his interpersonal skills!' It worked, he lost the attitude for the rest of his time on the team. That was a few years ago and hospital culture has changed within that time - I don't know if someone would be foolish enough to make that comment in an open ward now..In just five years in a hospital, I have met arrogant nurses, arrogant social workers, arrogant bed managers, arrogant receptionists and arrogant patients... it's a personal rather than job attribute. That said, I do think the consultant sets the tone for the rest of the team. If he/she promotes person centred care, you can be sure that everyone else falls in line. I have yet to work with an unapproachable consultant although naturally some have better interpersonal skills than others.

Saintly.

Traumadoc

I think its just human nature to dislike people who are "further up the chain", for example people rarely say "management is great where I work" , "managementis caring and understanding" "management should be paid more"

Consultants are at the top of the medicine chain so are always disliked unless you need them.

I save the life of a child- I am a hero to its mother,someone else will give out because that child "jumped the queue" -it happens.

Someone on a public waiting list waits years to see me because of lack of resources, but I am blamed as money grabbing because I can see them next month in a private hospital.
c'est la vie!