Respect for your opponents

Hectorjelly

Most players dont take poker too seriously. They do it for enjoyment and the thrill and so on (hotspur could probably explain more accurately). Its easy to forget, but we are the odd ones, spending each day analysing hands with poker tracker and talking in a lingo that no-one else understands. We all spend far too much time worrying about a silly endeavour that does very little in the grand scheme of things. So if you come across guys who dont fold AJo to a three bet all in, or call all in with a gutshot; they arent donkeys, retards or morons. You are the socially inept idiot who has spent too much time at the poker table and too little talking to women.

Also, just think about what these people are doing. they are; of their own free accord, coming to a poker table and mostly wagering against you for bad odds consistantly. There is almost no other regularly available + EV gamble available to ordinary citizens. Every other gambling activity is set up so as to be unexploitable, and extremely - EV. So what do many good players do when they play against bad players? They insult them and call them names, bragging about how they play for a living (not something to be that proud of IMO). When they lose they call them retards, knock over chairs, and insult them on message boards. Unfortunately Ive done some these things (mostly typed in retard). These players have come to a table with their money, and have every right to do what they want with it. In fact I think its winners who have the responsability to at least make the game fun. That means not being a nit, both in playing style and table demeanour.

Just rereading over this and it seems like a bit of a sermon, and it is. But ive always found it easier to know what to do than actually doing it. I think having a healthy respect for your opponents also makes you a better player. I often hear people complain after a hand, how did s/he make that call, it was terrible etc etc. This is a bad way to think after losing a hand. If you lost the hand, look over it and see if you could improve your play. Dont look to improve your opponents play. If you have bluffed a player and they really should of folded, YOU made the mistake and not them. You bluffed someone who you shouldnt really be bluffing. Its best to think of your opponents as machines, they dont make mistakes as such, they just play to whatever pattern they are programmed. Some ppl play too loose, some ppl play too tight, some players are tight but stupid, some players are smart but loose etc.

Marq

I Hj.

fuzzbox

Whats a matter you eh?
Godda no respect eh?
Its a not so bad
Its a nicea place
Ah shaddapa face.

ligger

fuzzbox wrote:

Whats a matter you eh?
Godda no respect eh?
Its a not so bad
Its a nicea place
Ah shaddapa face.

Oh Vienna.

smurph

Amen to that. If everyone played poker perfectly it would be a boring game. I have the utmost respect for anyone that plays poker full time, but it certainly would not be for me, for a number of reasons but mainly because im not good enough, and also it would then become a job, and i feel it would take the fun out of the game for me. Yes internet poker is the way to make money, but there is no social interaction involved. I work for a Construction Company the last 20 years, am on a great wage, great benefits which include going to major sporting events in Ireland. The people in work don't know one end of a poker table from another and can't believe that i play cards.

The irish open weekend financially was a disaster, but the atmosphere was brillant, and there was a genuine bond between the irish players, and the boards players, and it was brillant to see a boardsie go so deep into it...

Sometimes you play a hand and the other player does a donkey call or (seems) to slowroll you. But what you have to understand is that pokers popularity is growing, and maybe the player you were up against, doesn't realise that Ace rag is not worth going all in with, and maybe they are not familar with the unspoken rule of turning over the cards quickly and seem to be slowrolling because they have only been in a casino a few times..

On another note is anyone else suffering from "Post Irish Open Depression"..... this week has dragged in work, I have no va va voom, im looking for the buzz of last weekend, but strangely I don't even want to play cards... I can't imagine what its like to go over to the WSOP but the buzz must be immense, but the come down awful

What i have picked up from the weekend is that I need to improve my game something wicked, stop being such a tight player;) and open my game up a bit more.

Anyway my sermon over

Sinfonia

great post Hj, 5am is a great time for epiphanies!

Solksjaer

Poker books should open with a chapter on 'customer service', then 'Ethics'. I've seen the name 'tards' often on this site and the users like to call themselves intelligent. Well if so, try to be a bit more creative when slagging off your customers. I think the real word should be 'Amateurs' anyway. (oh yeah , that's pretty much 90% of us)
I blame the Americanisation of our bland youth. The older guys at the final table in the IO showed at least an 'Irishness' in how they handled themselves. Now if I could get rid of Jp MeEnroe as my sporting idol I might behave the same.


itching for a game, maybe next week...

semibluff

very true,
it is these people who make us choose a certain table. if we have a "buddy" on it, or in the live game if spiral is on it etc. unless he/she is a friend there should be a few rules at a table -
one should be take your beats as they come, even if A4sooooooooooted beats your KK. you want him calling - end of.
they put there money (whether hard earned or not) into the pot, and so deserve there chance to gamble.
There should be NO education at the table, if someone did something wrong in your books, say nothing. the best poker players keep stum, its the no-it-alls who just read Phil Helmuths book that berate players who make a bad call at a table that need 2 shut up.
And finally who gives us the right to be ignorant or rude to strangers at a poker table - we would not do it to any other strangers in any other walk of life, and i see no reason why the poker table should be any different.

I for one will be making a concerted effort to improve my manner at the table, and be more welcoming to new/bad players who keep the poker machine rolling.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

excellent post HJ, fully agree, this part of the game unfortuneatly seems to be worsening with more and more new players coming into the game. I fully believe espn coverage does not help as most of the newcomers see the like of mike the mouth and helmuth slag a player off and they think it is cool to replicate this behaviour in their local card room/casino.

El Stuntman

while I agree with HJ's sentiments, I would have to say that most live poker players behave themselves very well and there is generally a friendly vibe at most tables that I've played at in Dublin

the idiots that do berate newbies etc are generally subject to quite serious disapprobation from the rest of the table. So I don't think there is a major problem....

Bandana boy

Good post

Its hard not to vent though if your on a down swing
I will slag other players off but i will not try not to use offensive language or terminology
I usally try make a joke out of it

ntlbell

El Stuntman wrote:

while I agree with HJ's sentiments, I would have to say that most live poker players behave themselves very well and there is generally a friendly vibe at most tables that I've played at in Dublin

the idiots that do berate newbies etc are generally subject to quite serious disapprobation from the rest of the table. So I don't think there is a major problem....

I agree with you in Dublin card rooms for the most part everyone behaves themselves very well, I've only seen a small number of incidents in the SE and usually the same two idiots.

semibluff

Bandana boy wrote:

Good post

Its hard not to vent though if your on a down swing
I will slag other players off but i will not try not to use offensive language or terminology
I usally try make a joke out of it

even in the smallest form these jokes arent needed, and are deemed as ignorance by others. To new players it is embarrassing to be "slagged", even if in a joking manner, esp when terminology is used that his alien to him.

dont mean to come down on you Bandana, because i sometimes do it myself, but it is even in its lighter form something that we should try and rule out.

(agreed el Stuntman it is not a major problem, yet still exists)

El Stuntman

ntlbell wrote:

I've only seen a small number of incidents in the SE and usually the same two idiots.

I know who one of the musically challenged idiots is

who's the other one?

cardshark202

What they can't see, hear or feel won't hurt them.
Nice post

ntlbell

El Stuntman wrote:

I know who one of the musically challenged idiots is

who's the other one?

I think they're brother's, if they're not they're good friends and usually tanked up, regular in the fitz/SE but I think they're barred from the Fitz now.

late 30's I'd say.

marius

Hectorjelly wrote:

.......don't tap the tank etc......

agreed HJ.

Don't know if I would use the word 'respect' though, maybe something like 'appreciate'. I don't think it is correct to respect someone who is 'mostly wagering against you for bad odds consistantly'....I am deffo not in the disrespect camp but this is not a trait I would actively respect in someone....

ntlbell

marius wrote:

agreed HJ.

Don't know if I would use the word 'respect' though, maybe something like 'appreciate'. I don't think it is correct to respect someone who is 'mostly wagering against you for bad odds consistantly'....I am deffo not in the disrespect camp but this is not a trait I would actively respect in someone....

When are we going for dinner?

marius

ntlbell wrote:

When are we going for dinner?

was thinking Chapter 1.....or maybe i'll get you a sambo in the Fitz some time;)

edit...ah when? ....eh.....eh....../*backs out of door slowly

fuzzbox

ligger wrote:

Oh Vienna.

This means nothing to me.

ntlbell

marius wrote:

was thinking Chapter 1.....or maybe i'll get you a sambo in the Fitz some time;)

edit...ah when? ....eh.....eh....../*backs out of door slowly

Your seeing someone else...I can feel in my waters....

marius

ntlbell wrote:

Your seeing someone else...I can feel in my waters....

fuzzbox wrote:

They mean nothing to me

.

edit: I think we may have 'slightly' hijacked this thread...

pok3rplaya

Hectorjelly wrote:

Most players dont take poker too seriously. They do it for enjoyment and the thrill and so on (hotspur could probably explain more accurately). Its easy to forget, but we are the odd ones, spending each day analysing hands with poker tracker and talking in a lingo that no-one else understands. We all spend far too much time worrying about a silly endeavour that does very little in the grand scheme of things. So if you come across guys who dont fold AJo to a three bet all in, or call all in with a gutshot; they arent donkeys, retards or morons. You are the socially inept idiot who has spent too much time at the poker table and too little talking to women.

I disagree with this paragraph. These people are all of the above things. Next time you see my involved in a wager for a large ammount of money on a topic of knowledge about which I have very little clue, feel free to call me an idiot, retard and moron, because that is what I would be and that is what the fish in our games are doing.

Though you're right, you will never see me berate anyone at a poker table. Anyone who does is a bigger idiot then the fish he's sitting across from.

ligger

fuzzbox wrote:

This means nothing to me.

Ure funny.

Sinfonia

pok3rplaya wrote:

I disagree with this paragraph. These people are all of the above things. Next time you see my involved in a wager for a large ammount of money on a topic of knowledge about which I have very little clue, feel free to call me an idiot, retard and moron, because that is what I would be and that is what the fish in our games are doing.

But I think what HJ is saying is that although they may actually be 'donkeys' or whatever, they're not really trying, they're not taking it too seriously, they're just having a bit of fun.
During the World Cup last year, I put on bets against a few of my friends on who would win certain matches. I know almost nothing about football, footballers, which teams are good etc., and they know a lot, but we were just drinking and watching some matches, so it made it a bit more fun to watch, for me anyway.
If somebody called me an idiot for betting on the matches, I wouldn't agree, because I wasn't really trying to win, just having a bit of fun.

and i won the bets which made it even better:D

ollyk1

my tuppence worth....

While I too agree with El S that in general there is a good atmosphere in the SE there is an awful lot of educaton at the tables going on along with (and this one amazes me) people trying to help people calm down when they are going on tilt and people not encouraging bad players to reload after they've been stacked.

The guy gets stacked with top pair sh1t kicker and nobody says hard luck or "difficult hand to get away from", apart from me. I mean WTF?? Do people prefer playing against the better players or what??

patmac

Nice post HJ, some comments when I first started playing 18 months ago I called all in on a with J6clubs on a flop with 2 clubs in it and got abused, this ultimately lead me to improve my game as I started to study the game more.
Trying not to generalise but I find most of the savage abuse online seems to come from players in the US, last Tuesday we were playing an MTT on Paddy Power and down to the final table it was actually remarked upon how polite and civilised the whole game whether this was due to the fact non of our American friends were playing I cannot say.
As for playing live one guy in our local pub tourney is very fond of going all in with Ace rag, he got abused (verbally) a few times, now the good players just wait for him to go all in and take his chips.

ligger

ollyk1 wrote:

my tuppence worth....

While I too agree with El S that in general there is a good atmosphere in the SE there is an awful lot of educaton at the tables going on along with (and this one amazes me) people trying to help people calm down when they are going on tilt and people not encouraging bad players to reload after they've been stacked.

The guy gets stacked with top pair sh1t kicker and nobody says hard luck or "difficult hand to get away from", apart from me. I mean WTF?? Do people prefer playing against the better players or what??

Ollyk1 = a true gentleman of the game.;)

ollyk1

ligger wrote:

Ollyk1 = a true gentleman of the game.;)

TYVM

kebabfest

It always makes me laugh when I hear people say
" I prefer to play against good players "
What they should say is
" I prefer to play against people who fold to my stupid bluffs "

ntlbell

ollyk1 wrote:

my tuppence worth....


The guy gets stacked with top pair sh1t kicker and nobody says hard luck or "difficult hand to get away from", apart from me. I mean WTF??

The stuff of legend's.

mewso

Standard tbh.

califano

ollyk1 wrote:

The guy gets stacked with top pair sh1t kicker and nobody says hard luck or "difficult hand to get away from", apart from me.

And here was me thinking ollyk1 was finally slipping when i overheard him say this to some punter.

No such luck. Always one step ahead that fella!.

hotspur

On the topic of berating bad plays from poor players I have seen 3 top pros talk about why they dislike players doing it for 3 different reasons-

The first is Todd Brunson (who's not a very nice guy) who doesn't want bad players to be educated and become better, that is the tapping the tank thing, this has nothing to do with respect or politeness and everything to do with being a predator, actually it's kind of the opposite of respect.

Second is Barry Greenstein, in his book he talks about people with money who lose in poker at higher stakes as not being stupid at all but generally being intelligent and very successful people in other fields. So for him not berating bad play is more about respect.

The third is Daniel Negreanu who in his earlier stuff used to talk about keeping bad players entertained and enjoying the game so they would stay and continue to play loosely. This too is predatorial and has little to do with respect. This was back when Daniel was a bit of an ass, drank too much, and was very insulting towards a lot of people (think Annie Duke).

I would never insult someone live out of respect, but on the odd occasion I will insult someone online. Being called an idiot face to face is about 1000 times worse than online. For those of us who play a lot of what is a stressful game at times I'm fairly sure that releasing tension and frustration through a well timed "f*cking donkey" type is preferable to the effects of suppressing anger from a health point of view (think the Ned Flanders blow up: www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0gq-_qpPJQ )

bohsman

Do winning players really abuse their customers? For me its usually a sure sign of a losing player when you see someone giving abuse.

bohsman

bohsman wrote:

Do winning players really abuse their customers? For me its usually a sure sign of a losing player when you see someone giving abuse.

nailed it on the head my friend. the only person to abuse at the card table is the God of luck, who is the **** who delivers the running spades!

Bandara

semibluff wrote:

And finally who gives us the right to be ignorant or rude to strangers at a poker table - we would not do it to any other strangers in any other walk of life, and i see no reason why the poker table should be any different.

rolling.

I have to disagree with the comment above (and several others who posted similar ones), Poker is a battle between players, and whenever a situation like this occurs then winning is pretty much the end goal, be it monetary or otherwise.

I've played football to a high level and the sheer contempt for others, the ability to inflict serious injury purposely and casually, and the verbal/physical abuse that is dished out without any slight feelings of guilt etc afterwards is incredible and would be quite shocking to the uninitiated (such as the shock of new poker players when they get slaughtered for calling the re-re-raise with Q9 (and winning)).

The same goes for all such past times, once someone takes something seriously, and especially if there is money at stake, then any need to make your opponent like you is completely irrelevant. Fine if you want to be friends at the poker table but equally fine if you don't give a toss if your the most hated person out there.

For the record I've never been abusive to a fellow poker player, and never would be, but I don't feel there is a moral code that can be attributed to a game when the sole intention of the players participating is to win and win as much as absolutely possible.

cooker3

Hammertime wrote:

I have to disagree with the comment above (and several others who posted similar ones), Poker is a battle between players, and whenever a situation like this occurs then winning is pretty much the end goal, be it monetary or otherwise.

I've played football to a high level and the sheer contempt for others, the ability to inflict serious injury purposely and casually, and the verbal/physical abuse that is dished out without any slight feelings of guilt etc afterwards is incredible and would be quite shocking to the uninitiated (such as the shock of new poker players when they get slaughtered for calling the re-re-raise with Q9 (and winning)).

The same goes for all such past times, once someone takes something seriously, and especially if there is money at stake, then any need to make your opponent like you is completely irrelevant. Fine if you want to be friends at the poker table but equally fine if you don't give a toss if your the most hated person out there.

For the record I've never been abusive to a fellow poker player, and never would be, but I don't feel there is a moral code that can be attributed to a game when the sole intention of the players participating is to win and win as much as absolutely possible.

It is 1 thing taking someones money, is whole differant thing acting like a prick when doing it and as for scumbag footballers who injure others, look at the outrage at Roy keanes comment about the Haaland tackle.

Bandara

cooker3 wrote:

It is 1 thing taking someones money, is whole differant thing acting like a prick when doing it and as for scumbag footballers who injure others, look at the outrage at Roy keanes comment about the Haaland tackle.

I fully agree, however my point was that when its a competitive environment it all gets a bit Machiavellian.

Sadly this sort of thing is never to be anything less than expected.

ianmc38

Most of my notes on players have the word retard in them somewhere. Occasionally I'll try to tilt people by finding an English - <insert language here> translator online and saying something like "knew you were bluffing" after dogging them with AQ vs KK all in preflop. The downside is half the time I inadvertently tilt myself by doing it.

Lol @ ollyk btw. Like a lion stalking his prey.

DubTony

To fuzzbox and ligger.

Nice one lads. Love it. WP.

semibluff

Hammertime wrote:

I have to disagree with the comment above (and several others who posted similar ones), Poker is a battle between players, and whenever a situation like this occurs then winning is pretty much the end goal, be it monetary or otherwise.

I've played football to a high level and the sheer contempt for others, the ability to inflict serious injury purposely and casually, and the verbal/physical abuse that is dished out without any slight feelings of guilt etc afterwards is incredible and would be quite shocking to the uninitiated (such as the shock of new poker players when they get slaughtered for calling the re-re-raise with Q9 (and winning)).

I think your very wrong here. If your playing soccer and your opponent does something wrong (ie keeps going on his own when he has support on both sides, and then the tenth time he does he scores) do you berate him for making the wrong move??? Educate him so to speak?
Well this is your Mr Q9, leave him to his own devices.

Tony G is prob the only man i know who purposely is abnoxious with the aim of pis$ing people of. If you think that this is acceptable at the poker table i think you need to re-assess how much that 30 euro pot means to you and cop on.

I bet you were one of them players who kept nipping the centre forward the whole game??

David Michael

Damn I just foled 77 .. meh..

now 55..and raise..

and e1 folds...


great board. Stop back slapping. My peers have let me down

DeVore

I try not to berate players for bad play. I may have done it but I dont recall. At the IO I did snap at someone who , on the BB folded out of turn and I felt induced the SB to call my big steal. I felt bad about it and apologised but as far as play goes I will complain bitterly about bad play off the table when having a smoke but not on the table in public.

Some people play because they want to have fun/gamble/get excited. For them, "winning" is defined by how much of that they do. So a winning night for them might see them down 500 notes! For most of us here winning is measured in money and so for me to win, you must lose. When playing against a player who ISNT measuring it that way, its possible for both to win.

I have even seen a player (angered with the wife over a row) intent on LOSING money as a means of "winning". Working out WHY someone is at the poker table is half the battle of taking their chips imho.

DeV.

bops

Hectorjelly wrote:

Most players dont take poker too seriously. They do it for enjoyment and the thrill and so on (hotspur could probably explain more accurately). Its easy to forget, but we are the odd ones, spending each day analysing hands with poker tracker and talking in a lingo that no-one else understands. We all spend far too much time worrying about a silly endeavour that does very little in the grand scheme of things. So if you come across guys who dont fold AJo to a three bet all in, or call all in with a gutshot; they arent donkeys, retards or morons. You are the socially inept idiot who has spent too much time at the poker table and too little talking to women...

The best paragraph i've seen on here in a long time, and from a very surprising source (no offence intended HJ!!)

Keep up the good work!!

phantom_lord

I loled when I saw the op was hj.

RoundTower

I rarely if ever think someone a retard or similar because of a play they make at the poker table. On the other hand if people post retarded strategy advice on a poker forum like 2+2 or boards I am much more inclined to think they are a retard or in extreme cases call them a retard.

The point is it's not up to me to judge how you spend your money if it's just a game, but if you are making an effort to play well and still give stupid advice, then you probably are actually retarded.

NickyOD

What's bohsman said.

BTW HJ have you become a Buddhist now too?

Hectorjelly

NickyOD wrote:

What's bohsman said.

BTW HJ have you become a Buddhist now too?

we are all buddhists, most people just dont know

Macspower

Excellent post and something I've been an avid campaingner for. In live poker when I stack a donkey knowing exactly whats he's holding and knowing I have the nuts or close and manage to extract his tank from him on each street I usually say when he's leaving... "you were just unlucky, you had to call... sure you had top pair and top kicker.... it will swing around for you next time" or more importantly if you get stacked by the donk who calls all in for a middler and you with your top set and hits.... I know what you want to say but I always say... " ahh well what can I do.... you had to go for it.... look how much was in the pot...well done"
It was pointed out to me in the SE one night that I was just being sarcastic but believe me I wasn't I just want him calling all day for his middler... he has to hit it sometime...

I remember late one night in the SE 2 english guys came in and loaded up 3 or 4 times and spewed chips onto the table with mad bluffs and air and bottom pair etc etc... I never won a pot off them but 2 particular players took the lot in about 30 mins. These 2 guys proceeded to berate the guys and slag them for being so bad and told them to go home and play tiddleywinks.... The 2 guys got up left and I've never seen them again ( maybe they would never have come back anyway). I brought it to the attention of the card room manager in private later, who that night was "people skills" Dave and explained to him what was happening (he had heard it all anyway). His attitude was that there was nothing he could do about it and that they weren't regulars anyway...

Here's a piece from SS one by a guy that knows a little about poker...

Be Competitive with class:

When you get into a side game I'll hope you remember not to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. A lot of people who come to tournaments don't really have much chance of going home a winner. They are generally people who play largely for the enjoyment and are willing to pay for the pleasure.

A few years ago there was such a man who played in the world series. He wasn't a good player but he could afford to loose. But one of the world class players (a big name player) got the man into a side game and made some kind of a sucker play at him and the guy went for it. So instead of just taking the winnings gracefully, our big name player showed everyone at the rail what he had done. Then to make matters worse one of our local bookmakers made the guy 100/1 not to win the tournament (nobody likes to be a 100 to 1 dog).

The guy left and hasn't been back since. Each of the professionals invested 10k every year for several years knowing that they probably wouldn't win it but did it to stimulate action. And then these two guys ( the big name and the bookmaker) drove off one of the biggest action players we had ever attracted... for the sake of a few cruel laughs.

This is not only bad manners it is bad business It's not only conduct unbecoming a gentleman but especially conduct unbecoming a professional poker player. I don't care if it's $1 ante or $10000 buy in, don't ever be guilty of it.
Be highly competitive...... but do it with class.

Doyle Brunson

BobSloane

I remember reading something in Amarillo Slims book about Larry Flynt being a poor NL Holdem player and getting knocked out of some freezeout early. He was pisssed off and wanted to rebuy. Slim made some announcement(without actually using Flynts name but in such a way that everyone knew who it was) that a player wanted to rebuy and if no-one objected it would fine. No-one objected as they felt Flynt was dead money anyway. No-one except Gabe Kaplan that is. Slim took him to some back room and cleaned him out playing No-limit 7 card stud. Apparently Flynt is an excellent 7 card stud player but the No-limit element is what he can't handle. Bah - meaningless post...anyway