Does anyone find a Raise here

nicnicnic

nine left in the open sb 6h 6x


Caniadian guy with over 2million in chips has raised to 61k blinds 12k/24k I call

Im playing about 550k

flop 9h 7h 2h

I check he bets 90k jump in the money is 26 to 35 i think for next out

kebabfest

nicnicnic wrote:

nine left in the open sb 6h 6x


Caniadian guy with over 2million in chips has raised to 61k blinds 12k/24k I call

Im playing about 550k

flop 9h 7h 2h

I check he bets 90k jump in the money is 26 to 35 i think for next out

after initially checking I think it would be difficult to raise him here.
you'd need some kind of read on him to do that i reckon. If I thought about raising here I think I am actually calling and then pushing the turn on a non heart board.
Again though I would only do it if I had a read on him. Lay it down everytime without a read.

Waterford ace

i would of probably bet out first from the small blind rather than check

connie147

Are all 9 on one table? I presume you called for set value. What was his position at the table, utg, mp c/o? Has he been raising much?

Lots of things here Nicky that only you know the answer to. Youve seen his raising hands so youve a better idea here if your ahead. Depending on my read of him, I'm propbably letting this go now but Its a pretty nice flop for 66 against a raise. Were you low stack at the time? Depending where he raised from,and if you were the low stack, a push preflop might have been good.

But Ive never been lucky (or good) enough to be playing for these kind of money changes so Im not really qualified to answer.

Just spotted they were all hearts so its not that nice a flop.If he has a big heart he'll probably call your push now with the flush outs and two overs. I fold i think.

Ste05

I presume you were the big blind?? I might have re-raised Pre-Flop, alternatively I might have lead out on the flop. This hand is a hugely "had to be there" type of hand.

As played there's very little value in raising, it's a straight forward bluff, if you raise it'll be for a large % ot your stack and the success of it would depend hugely on how the table dynamics had been and how yourself and the CO viewed each other. Any raise either commits you or opens you up to a push which you can't really call. I probably just fold as played.

The value of position. If you had of lead for 90k I think it would have been better, any raise he makes basically commits him to playing for your whole stack, so you would have a nice position, you risk 90k and effectively ask him a 550k question. A much better position to be in. Regardless of your cards. But again it all depends on how you both viewed each other.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

ntlbell

UnLuckyLloyd wrote:

If you wish to raise, shove.

Shoving 400k+ would look really odd.

Nevermind, I assumed you meant open shove.

I like the lead here and fold to a raise.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

ntlbell

UnLuckyLloyd wrote:

If we now CRAI it would be 400k back to him with a pot of 300k + (running ante not posted).

If we are going to re - raise on the flop I don't think we have an option to do anything else.

Hence the "nevermind" and edit

phantom_lord

reraise pf. I'd prefer to lead out I think if I did just call. um, i dunno about now.

should the prize structure affect how we play? I'd like to think that if I made it to the ft I'd remain ignorant of the steps in prize money so it wouldn't affect how I played.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

sikes

is it 9 handed or 4/5 handed?

Flipper

He bet 90k into about 146k right? I think it's either push or fold (and I don't see anything "odd" about pushing here). Raising pot commits you anyway. Realistically, all you're beating is high cards with maybe 1 heart. I guess it's situational and I'd try to read into his smallish raise preflop and his bet on the flop with regard to previous hands he's played. You push and he's got AhXx, he'll probably call and you're in a race more or less. Personally I'd fancy that his small raise preflop might represent strength and wanting to play a pot. Big pair maybe?

Was 61k the table standard or what?

opr

I think c/r here is horrible i much prefer to lead out.

Opr

ntlbell

Flipper wrote:

He bet 90k into about 146k right? I think it's either push or fold (and I don't see anything "odd" about pushing here). Raising pot commits you anyway. Realistically, all you're beating is high cards with maybe 1 heart. I guess it's situational and I'd try to read into his smallish raise preflop and his bet on the flop with regard to previous hands he's played. You push and he's got AhXx, he'll probably call and you're in a race more or less. Personally I'd fancy that his small raise preflop might represent strength and wanting to play a pot. Big pair maybe?

Was 61k the table standard or what?

What would be odd would OPEN OPEN OPEN pushing 400k.

hence the never mind and the 4 post's on the edit and correction of CRAI to open.
Not CRAI.

ntlbell

valor wrote:

why the hell does everybody want to lead here

No.

valor

why the hell does everybody want to lead here

opr

valor wrote:

why the hell does everybody want to lead here

My thinking here is our hand is not strong enough to c/c and needs protecting.
I think if we lead out we are asking him a question for this stack and he really only has two options.

If we c/r i think we are turning our hand into a bluff.

Do you c/f ?

Opr

phantom_lord

c/c?

nicnicnic

I called pre for set value as I said it was the first time in the tournament that i had called a raise but i considered that if i can hit the set here the implied odds are big not just in the hand but in the dynamics of the table.

the raise which seems small but was his standard raise so nothing to be gleaned here. He was raising a lot but in spurts.

when the flop hit i took about one minute to check with the full intention of check shoving but i jibbed it. for the only time in the tournament i looked at the money also I had been told that he had been raising with connected middling cards a lot, I decided he looked strong and folded like a little girl.

edit its nine handed he has raised from middle position I'm sb

ocallagh

Whether we crai or c/f depends to some extent on our opponents range preflop. I hate c/c because our hand is too vulnerable and we'll fall behind or be bluffed too often i think. I don't like leading either.

opr wrote:

My thinking here is our hand is not strong enough to c/c and needs protecting.
I think if we lead out we are asking him a question for this stack and he really only has two options.

If we c/r i think we are turning our hand into a bluff.

Do you c/f ?

Opr

Turning a decent hand into a bluff is normally a stupid thing to do, however when our hand is so vulnerable and the turn/river will be very difficult to play (and also the pot is quite big already) it sometimes makes sense to turn it into a semi-bluff if we think he'll fold enough of the time.

allowing our opponent to turn his hand into a semi bluff (by leading the flop) is terrible for us.

opr

ocallagh wrote:

Turning a decent hand into a bluff is normally a stupid thing to do, however when our hand is so vulnerable and the turn/river will be very difficult to play (and also the pot is quite big already) it sometimes makes sense to turn it into a semi-bluff if we think he'll fold enough of the time.

allowing our opponent to turn his hand into a semi bluff (by leading the flop) is terrible for us.

I was just saying that i prefer to lead over a c/r as the hand was played my default is to c/f.

My problem is that alot of the time we may be drawing to 1 out or none if called when we c/r !! I don't think we are really semi bluffing in this spot. I would much prefer to C/R with soemthing like KQ and one heart for obvious reasons.

Opr

padraig_f

I like a check-raise all-in. You'll probably be gambling a fair bit (don't think he's folding an overpair or AhXx/KhXx hands) but with positive EV, with the 150k in the pot. You'd be really unlucky to be in bad shape, you have 11 outs twice against an overpair with no heart, 50/50 against two overcards with 1 heart. And a lot of his hands have no hearts at all.

e.g. if you look at AK combos. 12 unsuited, 4 suited.
6 combos have one heart, which you're 50/50 against (which would be +EV with the 150k in there). 9 combos have no heart which he'd probably fold, but you're in very good shape against anyway. And of course the one combo, AhKh, which you're dead against, but this is only 1/16th of the range.

BTW I'm not saying he just has AK, but those ratios will be the same for all unpaired hands. Also I think there's a reasonable chance you get him to fold QhXx, JhXx type hands, as you can easily have the Ah or Kh with your push.

ocallagh

opr wrote:

I was just saying that i prefer to lead over a c/r as the hand was played my default is to c/f.

My problem is that alot of the time we may be drawing to 1 out or none if called when we c/r !! I don't think we are really semi bluffing in this spot. I would much prefer to C/R with soemthing like KQ and one heart for obvious reasons.

Opr

o/p with a heart, or xxh would only occur a lot of the time if our opponents range was JJ+ AQ+ etc in which case we C/F the flop.

Moving on from that, if our opponents range is wide enough and includes loads of suited connectors and co-ordinated picture cards then we are faced with a decision on how to continue with the hand. Lead? CRAI? o/p with a heart, or xxh would be unlucky and would not occur a lot of the time in this instance.

The key then, is getting it all in while our pot equity and fold equity are both at their highest. CRAI on flop is best way to do this regardless of wheter we turn our hand into a semi bluff or not.

padraig_f

opr wrote:

I was just saying that i prefer to lead over a c/r as the hand was played my default is to c/f.

Leading with the intention of folding is worse than check-raising all-in.

Against hands we are 50/50 against (high heart and non-heart overpairs): he pushes all-in to our lead, so we lose $90k (or whatever our lead is) versus +$75k with an all-in.

Against hands that have no heart: he folds to our lead and we win $150k. With a check-raise we win an extra $90k from his bluff.

Against hands where we're crippled: obviously leading is better than CRAI here, but this is such a small part of his range (only made flushes and overpairs with higher heart).

opr

ocallagh wrote:

The key then, is getting it all in while our pot equity and fold equity are both at their highest. CRAI on flop is best way to do this regardless of wheter we turn our hand into a semi bluff or not.

Maybe i am missing what you are saying in the above but i would have thought in this situation that we can't turn our hand into a semi bluff.
A semi bluff is when we fold out better hands by pushing with outs and because of the FE we have with this play it can become profitable in the long term.

What hands does Villian fold that we are ahead of in this situation ? When he calls we generally are flipping a coin or are crushed ?
I am not sure that the amount in the pot when you combine these will make it +EV in the long run but i suppose that depends very much on the villians range.
The only bonus i see is the times when he bluffs with nothing and folds to the c/r on the flop ....... what about the times when he checks behinds.

Opr

opr

padraig_f wrote:

Leading with the intention of folding is worse than check-raising all-in.

Against hands we are 50/50 against (high heart and non-heart overpairs): he pushes all-in to our lead, so we lose $90k (or whatever our lead is) versus +$75k with an all-in.

Against hands that have no heart: he folds to our lead and we win $150k. With a check-raise we win an extra $90k from his bluff.

Against hands where we're crippled: obviously leading is better than CRAI here, but this is such a small part of his range (only made flushes and overpairs with higher heart).

Yeah that all makes sense i suppose it all comes down to Villians range here.

Opr

sikes

if we are calling for set value, then surely his range is tight enough that we CAN call for set value. Which means pushing here is prob a losing play.

nicnicnic

sikes wrote:

if we are calling for set value, then surely his range is tight enough that we CAN call for set value. Which means pushing here is prob a losing play.

Or loose enough post flop which i think it was, he was insta calling with top pair on flops but it just felt that it would be a lovely time to hit a set:)

sikes

sorry i missed the stack sizes, i thought we were much worse odds than we were getting.

continue!

ocallagh

opr wrote:

Maybe i am missing what you are saying in the above but i would have thought in this situation that we can't turn our hand into a semi bluff.
A semi bluff is when we fold out better hands by pushing with outs and because of the FE we have with this play it can become profitable in the long term.

What hands does Villian fold that we are ahead of in this situation ? When he calls we generally are flipping a coin or are crushed ?
I am not sure that the amount in the pot when you combine these will make it +EV in the long run but i suppose that depends very much on the villians range.
The only bonus i see is the times when he bluffs with nothing and folds to the c/r on the flop ....... what about the times when he checks behinds.

Opr

By CRAI he may well fold some pairs and also Khx, Qhx, Jhx, Thx all of which are 50:50 or better against us. If we can get him to fold these hands it is good for us because of the dead money in the pot. If we lead he will push with those hands and we will have to fold. This mimics what padraig_f said.


Also, you mentioned "When he calls we generally are flipping a coin or are crushed ?". True, but the When is important here..

I don't know if CRAI is best against this opponent all the time. It totally depends on your reads at the table and also his range. I just prefer it to leading the flop for the reasons mentioned above.

NickyOD

Nicky, I watched the hand and I think you played it fine. Sorel didn't look one bit weak. watching the action I had you on 66/88 so if i knew that, then Sorel definitely knew where he was at. I suspect he may have had an over pair that hand, like Jacks or Queens and in my head I was screaming, (Fold, Mr. Power, fold!)

He is a very good player online (Imer1um) and its very hard to attach his bet sizing to a range of hands.

Goodluck2me

i dont think its +ev to bluff/semi bluff someone who we have just called a raise for set value from. If there is implied odds on him paying us off on a set then surely these are the player we should try to avoid riskign our stack against with marginal holdings.