Moss & The Raiders

dulpit

Heard loads of rumours regarding Randy Moss leaving for Green Bay... Although seems that they were just rumours... Think he'll stay put? And do you think that the Raiders will take a QB in the draft? Will they take Russell or Quinn? Or possibly do something stoopid and take Calvin Johnson who they don't need if Moss stays put...

Are the Raiders screwed for next year???

jdivision

dulpit wrote:

Heard loads of rumours regarding Randy Moss leaving for Green Bay... Although seems that they were just rumours... Think he'll stay put? And do you think that the Raiders will take a QB in the draft? Will they take Russell or Quinn? Or possibly do something stoopid and take Calvin Johnson who they don't need if Moss stays put...

Are the Raiders screwed for next year???

Taking it in reverse order, they'll be improved but will still lost most games
Calvin Johnson is best player in the draft. full stop. Taking the best player in the draft is never stupid, you can always sign a free agent QB or trade for one.
They'll take Russell if they take a QB, concensus is they will but with Al Davis you never know
The Moss to Green Bay thing was just a rumour and would be shocked if it happened.

bobby wade

You do not take a WR # 1. Especially if your as bad as the Raiders

Pherekydes

dulpit wrote:

Are the Raiders screwed for next year???

Has Al Davis passed on or retired? No? Then, yes, they are screwed...


...until he does.

Chucky the tree

We have to take CJ i think. It would be like the texans passing up on bush last year. You dont pass on someone as talented as CJ, its crazy.

Moss will traded on the day of the draft probaly, not only is the chap a useless asshole, he is an expensive one. Lions will try and bend us over the for McCown but al wont allow it.

We will draft CJ number 1, either keep him or trade to to Bucs. Its crazy to pick Russel number one when everyone is after CJ.

Also, we wont start winning with Russel straight away, so i dont really think he is a must. I think he will be a flop. Walter will do a good job behind a decent o-line i think.

I'll be gutted if we take Russel.

Its between russel and CJ, we wont take Quinn.

jdivision

Chucky the tree wrote:

Walter will do a good job behind a decent o-line i think.
.

I hope you don't actually believe that

dulpit

What decent QB could Oakland get by trading Moss? Walter as starter would be all sorts of catastrophe....

Chucky the tree

jdivision wrote:

I hope you don't actually believe that

of course.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/2005/walter_andrew


If he didnt get the shoulder injury he would of been taken in the first round, and could very well of been taken number 1 ahead of Smith.

Put manning behind our OL and with no running game and he would be a diaster aswell. Walter deserves a decent chance. If it fails we do **** and draft a QB next year, which is going to be a better draft QB-wise.

We can get a second round for Moss, or even a 3rd and draft one then. I just want to get rid of moss. I dont care if it means having to star Alvis Whitted.

Even if we do draft Russel, there is no way in hell he will start anyway. Walter will starting the season no matter who we draft.

jdivision

To be honest I think they've given up on Walter because they're currently looking to trade for a QB. They're looking at getting Josh McCown. I think a good offensive coordinator could reinvigorate Moss and Porter and with Calvin Johnson it's probable they'd be able to make a lot of stuff happen. With Russell, he'd be able to throw the deep ball which would make Moss happy.

Chucky the tree

jdivision wrote:

To be honest I think they've given up on Walter because they're currently looking to trade for a QB. They're looking at getting Josh McCown. I think a good offensive coordinator could reinvigorate Moss and Porter and with Calvin Johnson it's probable they'd be able to make a lot of stuff happen. With Russell, he'd be able to throw the deep ball which would make Moss happy.

We are looking for McCown because we dont have any QB's challenging AW for the number 1 spot. We need to get another QB if he gets injuried.

Moss will be traded on draft day to the Packers. Its the various scenarios that will happen:

1. Draft CJ and keep him, then draft a QB in the second.
2. Draft CJ/trade the number 1 with the bucs and draft Russell/Quinn
3. Draft Russell and get WR in the second.

If we do draft Russell he wont start the season, so moss still wont have anyone to throw too him.


P.S maybe change this thread too a general draft one?

Boomer23

Chucky the tree wrote:

We have to take CJ i think. It would be like the texans passing up on bush last year.

ye cant compare CJ with Bush......Bush is a game changing player, a headache to defences, someone who can run, block, catch and take a savage hit....even when you KNOW he aint getting the ball, you still have to cover him

Cj is good, a very good wide reciever......but ye cant take a WR at number 1, not when you have players of the caliber of Quinn and Joe Thomas on the board

the REAL number 1 pick in this draft is Brady Quinn.....playing for Charlie Weis, in the goldfish bowl of Notre Dame.....could have been drafted last year but decided to complete his senior year, just like Leinart last year....dropped a few places, but will be a 10-12 year starter, and i can see him getting a couple of rings.

Russell on the other hand, obviously has talent, and people say he can throw the ball 70 yards.......WHO CARES.....so could Ryan Leaf...remember him? He has freakish size and a big arm, but since when were they the benchmarks for a great QB?

think of the top 2 QB's in the league now, Manning and Brady.....are they the size of offensive linemen? NO.....can they throw the ball 50 yards kneeling down? NO......how many rings do they have between them? 4

now think of QB's like Russell......supposed "athletes" here to redefine the QB position...........McNabb, Culpepper, Vick.....how many rings do they have? 0

the Raiders WILL take Russell number 1
the Bucs will take CJ number 2 after trading up
the Browns will get the best player in this draft, Quinn at 3
The Lions will take Joe Thomas number 4 after trading with the bucs

Boomer23

Chucky the tree wrote:

Put manning behind our OL and with no running game and he would be a diaster aswell. Walter deserves a decent chance

i totally agree, he had NO protection last season....would be a shame not to give him a chance

reminds me of Carr and the Texans...60%+ completion every season, 68% last year, yet for some reason the Texans thought it was HIS fault he was sacked 254 times, not the O-Line

jdivision

I don't think Brady's best player in the draft. He can panic a bit and tends to focus too long on the player he's going to throw the ball too. That's INT time in the NFL

Boomer23

ah yeah, he DOES try and force things.....but look at Favre and Manning, they do the same and are 2 of the greats........im NOT comparing him to them skill-wise, but i do see some similarities

but he as been playing in an NFL style offense for 4 years now, and has more attempts, completions AND TD's then Russell and Stanton combined....that cant be ignored

heyjude

dulpit wrote:

Heard loads of rumours regarding Randy Moss leaving for Green Bay... Although seems that they were just rumours... Think he'll stay put? And do you think that the Raiders will take a QB in the draft? Will they take Russell or Quinn? Or possibly do something stoopid and take Calvin Johnson who they don't need if Moss stays put...

Are the Raiders screwed for next year???

First priority has to be the O-Line, unless that is fixed whoever plays QB will get killed. The argument for picking a QB is strong, but only if you are looking 4+ years into the future, for usually(last season was an exception), most rookie QBs in the NFL spend a year or two holding a clipboard on the sideline before they are ready to take to the field. Choosing Johnson also won't transform the team in a single season, but best chance for a quick transformation is a stud draft pick on the O-Line or even the D-Line. If you can solidify both lines, then you are in a position to win games and while the Raider D posted good stats last year, they weren't great against the run, just the pass.

Burgess is looking for a deal that reflects his pro-bowl status and the Raiders, who are short of cash, may need to look at offloading Moss to keep Burgess happy. Good wide receivers are often found outside the top round of the draft, Jerry Porter was a 2nd round pick and Ronald Curry, a 7th round pick, the Raiders have too many holes to waste a pick on another WR. The problem with trading the top pick is that, of the teams that seem most interested in trading up(Denver, Tampa Bay and Atlanta), the Broncos and Bucs are coached by former Raider coaches, who surely won't pay a high price to the Raiders no matter how much they want Johnson.

The Raiders should trade Moss, trade down and grab a left tackle(hopefully one that is better that Robert Gallery-the can't miss LT picked 2nd in the 2004 draft), then pick up a QB in Round 2 and maybe then they should look for a TE or DE. They have two picks in round 3 plus whatever extra picks they can get if they trade down. Another possibility is that they could pick Johnson and trade him(if they can find any takers) like the Chargers did with Eli Manning a few years ago

Al Davis apparently doesn't believe in rebuilding years, but if he tries for a quick fix, he could blow the top pick and the team could be facing another couple of years at the bottom.

Chucky the tree

heyjude wrote:

First priority has to be the O-Line, unless that is fixed whoever plays QB will get killed. The argument for picking a QB is strong, but only if you are looking 4+ years into the future, for usually(last season was an exception), most rookie QBs in the NFL spend a year or two holding a clipboard on the sideline before they are ready to take to the field. Choosing Johnson also won't transform the team in a single season, but best chance for a quick transformation is a stud draft pick on the O-Line or even the D-Line. If you can solidify both lines, then you are in a position to win games and while the Raider D posted good stats last year, they weren't great against the run, just the pass.

Burgess is looking for a deal that reflects his pro-bowl status and the Raiders, who are short of cash, may need to look at offloading Moss to keep Burgess happy. Good wide receivers are often found outside the top round of the draft, Jerry Porter was a 2nd round pick and Ronald Curry, a 7th round pick, the Raiders have too many holes to waste a pick on another WR. The problem with trading the top pick is that, of the teams that seem most interested in trading up(Denver, Tampa Bay and Atlanta), the Broncos and Bucs are coached by former Raider coaches, who surely won't pay a high price to the Raiders no matter how much they want Johnson.

The Raiders should trade Moss, trade down and grab a left tackle(hopefully one that is better that Robert Gallery-the can't miss LT picked 2nd in the 2004 draft), then pick up a QB in Round 2 and maybe then they should look for a TE or DE. They have two picks in round 3 plus whatever extra picks they can get if they trade down. Another possibility is that they could pick Johnson and trade him(if they can find any takers) like the Chargers did with Eli Manning a few years ago

Al Davis apparently doesn't believe in rebuilding years, but if he tries for a quick fix, he could blow the top pick and the team could be facing another couple of years at the bottom.

I dont think our O-line is that bad to risk another high first round pick on a LT. We signed Cooper Carisle and Newbury which will help. Getting rid of Art Shells dated blocking schemes is the main plus though. Also, there some good OL players that will be available in the 2nd.

If we are gonna trade down and both QB's are gone we should take Gaines Adams.

heyjude

Chucky the tree wrote:

I dont think our O-line is that bad to risk another high first round pick on a LT. We signed Cooper Carisle and Newbury which will help. Getting rid of Art Shells dated blocking schemes is the main plus though. Also, there some good OL players that will be available in the 2nd.

If we are gonna trade down and both QB's are gone we should take Gaines Adams.

Carlisle and Newberry will help, but Carlisle is a guard and Newberry can play center or guard, so that still leaves Simms and Gallery as the tackles and neither can handle speed rushers consistently, which is a big problem for whoever plays QB. But you're right that after gallery, they might be wary of taking another LT with their first pick, but if you judge this years prospects at their position by your previous form in selecting players at that position, then during the Davis reign, the Raiders have selected two QBs in the first round, Mark Wilson and Todd Marinovich., both of which were busts, while their most recent successes in drafting have been at cornerback with Asohugma(? spelling) and Washington and at punter with Lechler, so who knows.

Whatever they do, they need more quality all round, its pretty disheartening when the best player over the last 3-4 seasons have been Lechler, the punter,which not surprisingly has translated into very few wins.

Lets hope Kiffin gets to choose the players he wants and needs to make his system work, rather than letting Al(:rolleyes: ) choose athletic types that look great on paper, but who don't look great on the field.

Chucky the tree

Should've taken Leinart last year, Shell really ****'d us over.

Chucky the tree

Moss to the pats for a 4th round. Pats are gonna walk the SB. Delighted we got rid of him.

Manny7

Chucky the tree wrote:

Moss to the pats for a 4th round. Pats are gonna walk the SB. Delighted we got rid of him.

If he does a Dillon and becomes a model citizen, Pats will be unstoppable this year. Just hope this doesn't backfire

Chucky the tree

model citizen and moss?! haha.

Manny7

Chucky the tree wrote:

model citizen and moss?! haha.

Hey, people were laughing at the same thing when the Pats got Dillon a few years ago, it's amazing what the chance of a ring can do to a person. If he really is willing to restructure his contract it's a good sign. If it does start to go wrong I'd say they'll ship him out ASAP, it's worth a 4th round pick just to see if he can change.

Lirange

Boomer23 wrote:

think of the top 2 QB's in the league now, Manning and Brady.....are they the size of offensive linemen? NO.....can they throw the ball 50 yards kneeling down? NO......how many rings do they have between them? 4

now think of QB's like Russell......supposed "athletes" here to redefine the QB position...........McNabb, Culpepper, Vick.....how many rings do they have? 0

Er ... John Elway? Brett Favre?

Russell was rated the top QB in the draft by 30 of the 32 teams more because he could make all the throws and do so more accurately than Quinn. Quinn also fits into the athletic mold and has a very strong arm. Quinn is not in the Manning or Brady caste either. Weis does like to compare his team leadership to Brady but Quinn never won a big game whereas Russell played in the the defensive minded SEC and won many big games. Over two years Russell led his team to eight 4th quarter and overtime comeback victories. He was clutch and established himself as a good decision maker at critical moments in games. A look at their career stats against top 25 teams and Russell trounces Quinn in every category. This with an offensive line that had the same protection issues as ND and a non existent running game.

Neither Russell or Quinn are known as runners like Vick or McNabb but they scramble well. Another edge for Russell is that he is very good throwing in the pocket and on the run. Quinn's pass ability when chased from the pocket is a major weakness. Despite some highlight footage of bomb TD passes where Russell killed teams was 10 to 25 yards ... crossing routes and sideline lasers. The QB he is most compared to is John Elway ... who like Russell had the sweet combination of power and accuracy. Elway like Russell wasn't a running QB but was still elusive and hard to tackle to the turf.

PappaCSkillz22

Bottom line is, Patriots were 10/1 with Paddy Powers on Friday, today they are 7/2 hot favourites (Indy next at 8/1)

Now that's a seal of approval

tallaghtoutlaws

Lirange wrote:

Er ... John Elway? Brett Favre?

Russell was rated the top QB in the draft by 30 of the 32 teams more because he could make all the throws and do so more accurately than Quinn. Quinn also fits into the athletic mold and has a very strong arm. Quinn is not in the Manning or Brady caste either. Weis does like to compare his team leadership to Brady but Quinn never won a big game whereas Russell played in the the defensive minded SEC and won many big games. Over two years Russell led his team to eight 4th quarter and overtime comeback victories. He was clutch and established himself as a good decision maker at critical moments in games. A look at their career stats against top 25 teams and Russell trounces Quinn in every category. This with an offensive line that had the same protection issues as ND and a non existent running game.

Neither Russell or Quinn are known as runners like Vick or McNabb but they scramble well. Another edge for Russell is that he is very good throwing in the pocket and on the run. Quinn's pass ability when chased from the pocket is a major weakness. Despite some highlight footage of bomb TD passes where Russell killed teams was 10 to 25 yards ... crossing routes and sideline lasers. The QB he is most compared to is John Elway ... who like Russell had the sweet combination of power and accuracy. Elway like Russell wasn't a running QB but was still elusive and hard to tackle to the turf.

I get the feeling you just don't like Brady Quinn would I be right? Any whatever happens both Russell and Quinn will most like start for the Raiders and Browns respectively lets let their NFL careers judge who is better.

Brady Quinn is a pure pocket passer hence the comparisons to Tom Brady. JaMarcus Russell is another McNair McNabb type pocket passer but if needs be he can move.

Look two different types of QBs lets let their performance in the NFL decide all.:)

Lirange

tallaghtoutlaws wrote:

I get the feeling you just don't like Brady Quinn would I be right?

Not the case. I think the expectations some have placed on him may supersede his ability to meet them.

tallaghtoutlaws wrote:

Brady Quinn is a pure pocket passer hence the comparisons to Tom Brady.

JaMarcus Russell is another McNair McNabb type pocket passer but if needs be he can move.

The exact same thing can be said of Quinn. They are both elusive. Quinn is more mobile than Russell. Russell though is harder to tackle because he is sturdy. Russell's and Quinn's rushing stats are about the same. Russell can throw accurate balls on the run but he is not a running QB. The best comparison is with Elway because of Russell's strength combined with his accuracy.

tallaghtoutlaws wrote:

Look two different types of QBs

Two different types of QBs? Neither fit neatly into opposite molds. In fact they have some things in common. Though Quinn's arm is not quite as strong he is not lacking in that department ... it is one of his assets. He is also just as mobile as Russell. You compare him to Brady and Manning. Yet one of Russell's best assets is his ability to run the 2 minute offense ... engineering several comeback drives the last two years ... This is something that Quinn struggled with in his college career. That's not very Brady or Manning-like. A better comparison for Quinn would be someone like Hasselbeck or Roethlisberger.

tallaghtoutlaws wrote:

lets let their performance in the NFL decide all.:)

Everything is ultimately decided on the field. But what's the fun of being a sports fan if we don't talk and speculate?

dulpit

I think that while it makes sense for the Raiders to shift him, it was a steal for the Patriots PROVIDED Moss cops on and plays well... If he does i reckon that the Superbowl is headed New England's direction...

BizzyC

Given all of the discussions moss has had with the media, and his new contract, I dont see him being a problem.

He's indicated his willingness to stop all of that behaviour. His contract also has a no nonsense clause. Once he messes, he's dropped.

He took a huge pay cut to play for the Pats, as he said himself "I have money in the bank, why would it be an issue". Brady re-structured his aswell to make space for moss. I can see it being a great year as a pats fan.

LuckyLloyd

I think there are some good posts in this thread. Ultimately however, it starts now for both QBs. I think the quaterback with the better body of work in his college career went higher in the draft. But note closely the records of QBs drafted in the first round over the past five years. More misses than hits I think it would be fair to say.

Talking about Tom Brady is interesting. Hardly a stellar college career and not a high draft choice to put it mildly!! Same goes for Pennington at the Jets. QBs develop over time and become the players that they are. IMO David Carr and Eli Manning would both have done more throughout their college careers than either Russell or Quinn and looked more impressive coming into the league.

I think both Russell and Quinn can be successful, but I personally think that Quinn has landed in a better spot. He will essentially be playing in the same region and to the same fans that he played for in college. The expectation levels at that franchise are perennially lower, and I think Cleveland had an excellent draft allowing Quinn to come in with a couple of athletes that could provide the backbone of a winning team in seasons to come.

Time will tell.

Oh and, expect Moss to have an unreal season with the Patriots ala Dillon. Moss will now think “title”. And I reckon he will play like it matters this year. And when he wants to – he owns.

Manny7

I agree with most of what you wrote LuckyLloyd (esp about Moss), but I think people are a bit harsh looking back on Brady. He did lead Michigan to a title and won two Bowls, not a bad college career at all. He expected to go much higher in the draft (but then I guess every player thinks that) and ultimately dropped due to a perception of weak arm strength. It'll be interesting to see how his arm copes if Moss is flying down the field on every play.

LuckyLloyd

Manny7 wrote:

I agree with most of what you wrote LuckyLloyd (esp about Moss), but I think people are a bit harsh looking back on Brady. He did lead Michigan to a title and won two Bowls, not a bad college career at all. He expected to go much higher in the draft (but then I guess every player thinks that) and ultimately dropped due to a perception of weak arm strength. It'll be interesting to see how his arm copes if Moss is flying down the field on every play.

Well, he doesn't have outstanding arm strength - but he still is good going deep because of his accuracy. I think you are right - Brady did a decent job in college but was never mooted as a top prospect. That is exactly my point - it doesn't really matter what you have done in college once you are drafted. It is all about how a quaterback deals with the step up and pressure of the next level.

Reality is that most QBs that are highly touted and thrown in to start from the off will initally dissapoint. It is the longterm that matters - and the real conversations on Russell and Quinn should take place three or four years from now.