Best martial art for self defence

singloud

I'm starting University this year and moving to Galway, I'm thinking of taking up a martial art for pure self defense, no flash or anything, just defense, it's something I'm interested in pursuing, so I'm wondering what you would reccomend, it'd be hard for me to discern between a sporting dojo and one teaching self defense so any help is welcome.
Thanks

Black Swan

NUI-Galway? Check out their MA SOCs.

dlofnep

Check out point blank submissions. It's run by Mark Leonard, genuine guy. The guys there compete in MMA, so you'll definately get an honest assessment of yourself in every class. There is no lieing to yourself in sparring

Loads to be learned, all practical and functional and very applicable for self defense..

http://www.pointblankgym.com/ is the website - mark posts on here also.

mark.leonard

Hi singloud,

there are a number of clubs in the college teaching martial arts, my gym has moved to parkmore on the east side of the city, let me know if it would suit you and we can talk about it, the self defence merits of MMA have been pretty well documented on here in the past so I am not going to cover that old ground again.

If the location of the gym won't work for you, I also teach Taekwondo in the college itslef, though it is good fun, it and MMA are light years apart.

Colm_OReilly

Mark, do you teach pure TKD in the college now? And still coach in PBS?

singloud

mark.leonard wrote:

Hi singloud,

there are a number of clubs in the college teaching martial arts, my gym has moved to parkmore on the east side of the city, let me know if it would suit you and we can talk about it, the self defence merits of MMA have been pretty well documented on here in the past so I am not going to cover that old ground again.

If the location of the gym won't work for you, I also teach Taekwondo in the college itslef, though it is good fun, it and MMA are light years apart.

Cheers mate,I have to say it looks pretty sweet,would I fit into the Teen category so?I have no experience whatsoever but I enjoy working out so the forget the gym routine would be no problem.
Also how much are fees?

Colm_OReilly

I'd say if you're starting college train with the adults. Teens are usually Junior Cert years.

mark.leonard

Colm is correct, you would be an adult once you get out of secondary school.

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Mark, do you teach pure TKD in the college now? And still coach in PBS?

I do indeed. Monday nights, after the intermediate grappling class, I nip over the bridge to teach in the college.

singloud

Yeah sorry, but I wasn't sure which group to be in, it listed the programs as kid,teen,forget the gym etc.

Quillo

Give Dave Joyce a look at http://www.seamaacademy.com/

Pingu

The college clubs are listed here, http://sports.nuigalway.ie/clubs/, kung fu isn't there anymore they do Thai with Dave Joyce. There'll be a clubs day in the first few weeks in Sept. and all the martial clubs are together, so you can go along and talk to them there. There's no SD like in Maynooth so i'd say talk to a few of the clubs, Mark, Dave etc. and see what suits you best.

On an aside Marks TKD classes seem to attract alot of women, always good

There was a guy at last years clubs day who challenged Cut to a fight on the mats to see if Judo was any good for SD :eek:

Nothingcompares

Pingu wrote:

There was a guy at last years clubs day who challenged Cut to a fight on the mats to see if Judo was any good for SD :eek:

and what happened?

Pingu

The lads explained it was a sport, thats what it's trained as, told him to come down to the beginner sessions, he did and stuck with it.

ch252

I dont know if you made your mind up already but pointblankgym is really a very good choice, instructor is very good and actually competes, The sport is very practical for self-defence

Vas_Guy

I think most martial arts offer good self defense skills which one can use in a life protection situation.

It all depends on:
A good foundation of the basics
A understanding of the hand drills, katas
Interpretation the various moves from kata

All this comes after years of training in martial arts, you must remember in the old days on the island of Okinawa the birth place of Karate, Karate was learned in secret a master had only 2 or 3 students as if it was an apprenticeship, now times have changed and martial arts is available to all.

You may look at a Karate class, a Tae Kwon Do class, etc and see them doing punches, blocks and kicks up and down the hall and say to yourself thats silly but that is the 'spectator' martial arts behind closed doors there is totally different meaning to those 'blocks' which are really grapling, pressure point or nerve attacks.

All martial arts have lots to offer in terms of self defense it the may it being thought makes the difference.

As you know its very easy stop a punch just put your hand up to stop it and be ready for the other hand coming, then the headbutt or knee then its into grappling. I once met a karate master who used to run as fast as he could for 10secs because if he could not finish the fight after 3 secs then theres no point staying around.

Heres a quick self defence technique get a good pair of running shoes and then you in a confrontation turn and run away if you can, the best weapon a person can have is their mind, and if you cannot run and have to stand your ground, unless your prepared to win at all costs give them your wallet.

Nothingcompares

[QUOTE=Vas_Guy
A understanding of the hand drills, katas
Interpretation the various moves from kata
/QUOTE]

No, you're wrong. You don't need to understand kata. You need to not do kata.

Vas_Guy

Nothingcompares/QUOTE wrote:

No, you're wrong. You don't need to understand kata. You need to not do kata.

Kata can be compared to a song. The meaning of the song is stated in the lyrics and expressed in the melody. The meaning of kata is, in its application for real fighting, the expression of that application in physical movements of the form.

Principles of Kata Interpretation

No Block Rule: simply put the movement of kata are not defensive. There are no downward blocks, blocking is a completely natural action. The movements called blocks in kata don't work as blocks - until they are interpreted as offensive actions.

Pressure Point Rule: Every kata is a pressure point technique. The questions every student should ask is: "What pressure points and I using with this movement?"

Two Hand Rule: Simply put, there is no wasted part of a kata. Every part of the action is there for a reason. Both hands in the kata action move because both hands are combative in the function.

Multiple Interpretation Rule: There are several interpretations of a kata move, at least three.

Direction of Movement: The direction of the movement in the kata indicates the angle the defender assumes in relation to the attacker to issuer successful application of the technique.

Visualization Rule: when performing kata , always visualize the opponent.

What art do you study?

columok

Kata as a training method (that assuming we're talking about developing efficiency at combat) has been proven time and time again to be outdated.

Debating the subtleties of kata training to people who realise that it is outmoded is like trying to explain the subtleties of a "world is flat" model to a modern schoolchild. Kata training may be good for kata training but in terms of developing skill against resisting opponents it is useless.

Though I really agree with you on the running stuff. I would actually go a step further and say step one should always be run before you even try to hit someone...

Vas_Guy

columok wrote:

Kata as a training method (that assuming we're talking about developing efficiency at combat) has been proven time and time again to be outdated.

Debating the subtleties of kata training to people who realise that it is outmoded is like trying to explain the subtleties of a "world is flat" model to a modern schoolchild. Kata training may be good for kata training but in terms of developing skill against resisting opponents it is useless.

Though I really agree with you on the running stuff. I would actually go a step further and say step one should always be run before you even try to hit someone...

Fair enough I see your point, did you ever hear of George Dillman, Patrick McCarthy, Ric Clarke, did you even attend any of their seminars, they are better qualified than me to explain about kata.

I've seen people who've done kata and have no understanding about the true meaning, remember karate was a secret art on Okinawa.

Baggio...

Vas_Guy wrote:

George Dillman.

He's a charlatan and a liar...

Roper

Vas_Guy wrote:

Patrick McCarthy

He plays centre half for Leicester City.

Vas_Guy

Baggio... wrote:

He's a charlatan and a liar...

I'm not one of his fan either but he did do a lot of work promoting kyusho

And for Patrick McCarthy http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/ he comes to NUIG every year

Vince Morris http://www.kissakikarate.com/

Mark Hamill

Vas_Guy wrote:

Direction of Movement: The direction of the movement in the kata indicates the angle the defender assumes in relation to the attacker to issuer successful application of the technique.

Visualization Rule: when performing kata , always visualize the opponent.

kata has its place, but not in self-defense. Visualising your opponent and assuming your attackers position is all well and good, but in a self defense situation (a situation where by being in it you have already made a mistake in your assumtions on how your aggressor is going to react) assumtions are useless. Its how you can react to the massive number of variables that can occur in a real fight that will determine the outcome, and seeing as those variables can be really massive (who's coming around the corner, your mates or his?) you are better off escaping.
If you find you can't escape/avoid these instances of agression, then you want a martial art which minimises emphasis on things like katas, and emphasises sparring against "live" opponents.
This is by no means a guarantee to winning every fight you get in, but remember when doing your kata, its unlikely that the ait your hitting has agroup of its mates coming around the corner.

Vas_Guy

Mark Hamill wrote:

kata has its place, but not in self-defense. Visualising your opponent and assuming your attackers position is all well and good, but in a self defense situation (a situation where by being in it you have already made a mistake in your assumtions on how your aggressor is going to react) assumtions are useless. Its how you can react to the massive number of variables that can occur in a real fight that will determine the outcome, and seeing as those variables can be really massive (who's coming around the corner, your mates or his?) you are better off escaping.
If you find you can't escape/avoid these instances of agression, then you want a martial art which minimises emphasis on things like katas, and emphasises sparring against "live" opponents.
This is by no means a guarantee to winning every fight you get in, but remember when doing your kata, its unlikely that the ait your hitting has agroup of its mates coming around the corner.

Good point, which lead me onto another misinterpertation of kata, you can jump from one move to another even from a different kata, its not written in stone how you apply it.

Reguarding multiple attack the most dangerous person is the one whose right hand is free ie its not blocked by the guy standing close to him therefore he can get a clear swing at you, so he would be standing at your left with his friends on your right.

He punches you put a 45 degree angle on his body put the point on his arm follow up to the neck or jaw point, knock out he falls in their path you get away, angle movements are in kata, body changing.

You know yourself about not fighting in a straight line move at angles.

Mark Hamill

Vas_Guy wrote:

Reguarding multiple attack the most dangerous person is the one whose right hand is free ie its not blocked by the guy standing close to him therefore he can get a clear swing at you, so he would be standing at your left with his friends on your right.

Unless he's a lefty, then he's on the other side. Or he decides to kick you. Or knee you. Or headbut you. Or grab you for the rest of the people to hit.

Vas_Guy wrote:

He punches you put a 45 degree angle on his body put the point on his arm follow up to the neck or jaw point, knock out he falls in their path you get away, angle movements are in kata, body changing.

While you put a 45 degree angle to him, you would be changing angles relative to therest of the people around and assuming there is three or more spaced around you, that means one person ends up behind you.
Besides, its only in the movies that groups fight induviduals one at a time.

Roper

You serious Vas Guy?

Vas_Guy

Mark Hamill wrote:

Unless he's a lefty, then he's on the other side. Or he decides to kick you. Or knee you. Or headbut you. Or grab you for the rest of the people to hit.



While you put a 45 degree angle to him, you would be changing angles relative to therest of the people around and assuming there is three or more spaced around you, that means one person ends up behind you.
Besides, its only in the movies that groups fight induviduals one at a time.

He he tries to kick you then he's no threat as he's at a distance, same defense for a head butt, you know yourself palms up will stop a headbutt, same for a knee or use your knee as in naihanchi kata to strike the inside of his, to pop the knee cap and so when his foot touches the ground he keeps going as his knee is opped.

multiple attack there is a good risk of getting hit, stabed so grab one of them a keep hitting and do as much damage as possible and see how brave his friends are, and its a v. serious situation then its 'judged by 12 then carried by 6'

Just out of interest what martial arts are you guys in?

columok

With the confidence that you seem to have I think you'd have no problem in your average Thai Boxing or Vale Tudo bout. How much full contact sparring do you do to be so confident under attack? You must have a magnificent fight record with your capacity to withstand adrenaline...

Colm_OReilly

To all the MMAers salavating at the mouth, CALM DOWN, that's a mod order.

Vas Guy: What's your martial arts experience? Who do you train under? Have you competed much? Have you gotten into many fights?

I'm asking so I can get an idea of where you're coming from.

For my part I started Kenpo when I was 9. Around 18 I started dabbling in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and from 19 on have trained BJJ, Olympic Wrestling, a bit of Thai, and competed in Mixed Martial Arts events and Sub Wrestling comps, win some, lose some. I also coach in UCD and out where I live.

Colm

SorGan

Vas_Guy wrote:

Good point, which lead me onto another misinterpertation of kata, you can jump from one move to another even from a different kata, its not written in stone how you apply it.

Reguarding multiple attack the most dangerous person is the one whose right hand is free ie its not blocked by the guy standing close to him therefore he can get a clear swing at you, so he would be standing at your left with his friends on your right.

He punches you put a 45 degree angle on his body put the point on his arm follow up to the neck or jaw point, knock out he falls in their path you get away, angle movements are in kata, body changing.

You know yourself about not fighting in a straight line move at angles.

good lord:)

Vas_Guy

columok wrote:

With the confidence that you seem to have I think you'd have no problem in your average Thai Boxing or Vale Tudo bout. How much full contact sparring do you do to be so confident under attack? You must have a magnificent fight record with your capacity to withstand adrenaline...

Another good point, Martial Arts were never meant to be used against trained athethles they were developed to be used against untrained attackers.

What happens if i break someones leg in a bout, I know those guys are quick, but your 50% more vunerable on one leg, or gouge their eye out or bite them ?

I do karate, I've listed the names and links of some of the people i've trained with, i've trained with combat veterans who've killed in unarmed combat.

Yes I'm not proud to admit it i've been in fights and seen plenty of street fights.

I'm not making any claims that I'm a superman or invinsible, which i'm not, i bleed just like any of you would.

I'm not trying to be arrogant just listening to others points and views and responding.

I did hear of a female world kick boxing chamption who when faced with a scumbag who exposed himself to her, nearly fainted as she was not mentally prepared for a real world situation.

Mick Coup

Vas Guy,

I rarely post on this forum, but I've been reading your comments with interest.

What's the weather like on your planet?

Mick

Vas_Guy

Mick Coup wrote:

Vas Guy,

I rarely post on this forum, but I've been reading your comments with interest.

What's the weather like on your planet?

Mick

Ok, have you ever trained with Vince Morris, Patrick McCarthy, etc traditional karate people

SorGan

Mick Coup wrote:

Vas Guy,

I rarely post on this forum, but I've been reading your comments with interest.

What's the weather like on your planet?

Mick

lol

hey mick

SorGan

Vas_Guy wrote:

Ok, have you ever trained with Vince Morris, Patrick McCarthy, etc traditional karate people

Priceless,:D
click on the link under his post my friend.

Mick Coup

VG,

Forget about who I've trained with, you're talking about real fighting apparently - ever had one?

Raise your argument, not your voice.

Name dropping means very little during a fight I assure you, it's yours that counts - do you have one?

Mick

columok

The advocation of traditional karate methods round these parts probably won't go down too well IMHO. Many boards members have spent years training in poorly trained MAs including Karate and have since realised many of the gaps in kata training.

Quite simply there is no substitute for resistance training. Nothing else does it. Kata's don't teach technique effectively. They aren't a good form of conditioning. They don't improve you're ability to avoid or give a good smack in the mouth. They're useless and outdated. As JK's sig used to always say "If you understand no explanation is necessary. If you don't then no explanation is possible" (Or something)

judomick

Vas Guy, what happens if your attacked by an athlete?

buck65

I know I'm already on a loser here but as a TKDer I do believe patterns,kata or tuls do have a place in martial arts, if only for repitition of basic movements and stance practice etc.
I'm not so foolish to believe that there are hidden movements in them, but as a form of technique practice they are useful. Also there are some movements that can be applied in self defence as Stuart Anslow details in his book on patterns. Of course alot of these movements are widely known and the Koreans didn't invent them and to be honest are just grab breaks etc. and basic stuff.
Of course BJJ or Judo are supreme for close in fighting and grappling and therefore self defence. However TKD and Karate are super martial arts in their own rights, as striking arts, for fitness and discipline and due to their popularity (5 TKD clubs in my town alone, no judo or BJJ!!) they bring alot of MAers into the world who then may go off and seek out other forms of self defence be it MT MMA BBJ whatever.
I know the arguments about TKD and alot of them are valid - such as becoming a Black belt in 4 years etc. versus 7 or whatever for BJJ but I guess this is how long it takes to be proficiently skilled at Black belt level in my art.
Personally I see TKD as a "gateway" art as I would like to try another grappling style to compliment it but only for TKD I would be sitting at home or playing a bit of 5 a side rather than training 5 times a week and trying to improve myself.
We're all on the same side here.

Colm_OReilly

Well spoken Buck.

I suppose a point could be made that any exercise is better than none, but let's look at a crossfitesque argument: If you're already putting in effort and want to achieve results, why do bodybuilding style segmented workouts when total body workouts are more efficient? Efficiency here being greater fitness gains, functional strength, similar or better aesthetic development, greater mental toughness due to the demanding and unpredictable nature, etc.

Vas Guy: How much sparring do yo do in class? What is the ruleset? How closely do you find your movements under pressure to resemble kata while sparring?

Cheers,
Colm

Vas_Guy

columok wrote:

The advocation of traditional karate methods round these parts probably won't go down too well IMHO. Many boards members have spent years training in poorly trained MAs including Karate and have since realised many of the gaps in kata training.

Quite simply there is no substitute for resistance training. Nothing else does it. Kata's don't teach technique effectively. They aren't a good form of conditioning. They don't improve you're ability to avoid or give a good smack in the mouth. They're useless and outdated. As JK's sig used to always say "If you understand no explanation is necessary. If you don't then no explanation is possible" (Or something)

Most of what you've all said is true, its a pity that those of you who did karate did it under a poorly trained instructor.

I'm not trying to be arrogant or anything we are all martial artists after all, its just what i've learned about kata after training with various people.

Karate as well does not suit everybody, we have people army, police, etc who do not want to get bogged down with learning katas or a martial art and want quick realistic life procection techniques.

For the TKD guy who posted, i would not want to get into a fight with the likes of Willie Lim http://www.usadojo.com/articles/return-roots.htm or Hee ll Cho both TKD artists

All I can say is all martial arts offer self defense.

If you want to put you meet Patrick McCarthy he's in Galway on the 17/18 November 2007 http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/seminars.htm if you do go please be open minded and as him about kata.

Yes we do sparring the same as you find in any karate club.

Its difficult for me to explain to you guys who are not involved in traditional karate or who were poorly trained and have a grudge against karate, if your techniques works for use then why change keep it, would i be right in saying that you do a lot of grapling?

Nothingcompares

Vas-guy I'm afraid you're not being very convincing to those of us who don't appreciate the use of kata in training for real fighting. You just say we don't understand it or weren't thought it correctly.

Karate, as you presumably know, exists in many formats, from shotokan to kyukushin. And I feel within the name of Karate there are many different things being practiced. So you'll need to be more specific in future.

Jon bluming says if it's not full contact it's not karate, do you agree? He also says kata training is mainly for money spinning (more gradings, more time spent learning stuff for gradings)

columok

Most of what you've all said is true, its a pity that those of you who did karate did it under a poorly trained instructor.

I'm not challenging the quality of some karate training methods. I'm challenging the training methods of most karate. And most martial arts are trained poorly. The exceptions are usually those that rely on resistance training against a realistically resisting opponent. They are usually: boxing, thai boxing, full contact kick boxing, san da, wrestling, judo, sambo, bjj, mma and other similar arts.

All I can say is all martial arts offer self defense.

Could'nt disagree more. Some are useless. Some teach things that will get you more hurt than ignorance might.

if your techniques works for use then why change keep it

Technique and skill are very different. It would be easy to take something that works in something like boxing (for example a jab) and through rubbish training methods (e.g. katas, one step sparring, prerehearsed drills) to render that technique useless. Techniques are applied with skill. Skill allows us to deal with resistance, timing and constant movement.

mikeruurds

Vas_Guy wrote:

Fair enough I see your point, did you ever hear of George Dillman, Patrick McCarthy, Ric Clarke, did you even attend any of their seminars, they are better qualified than me to explain about kata.

I've seen people who've done kata and have no understanding about the true meaning, remember karate was a secret art on Okinawa.

Oh noes... George Dillman - King of the "no touch" knockout, chi balls and chi blasts.

Someone needs to tell him that Naruto and Dragonball Z are fiction.

I'll stick to getting punching and kicking advice from Muy Thai/Kickboxers/boxers thanks.

Mike

Vas_Guy

Nothingcompares wrote:

Vas-guy I'm afraid you're not being very convincing to those of us who don't appreciate the use of kata in training for real fighting. You just say we don't understand it or weren't thought it correctly.

Karate, as you presumably know, exists in many formats, from shotokan to kyukushin. And I feel within the name of Karate there are many different things being practiced. So you'll need to be more specific in future.

Jon bluming says if it's not full contact it's not karate, do you agree? He also says kata training is mainly for money spinning (more gradings, more time spent learning stuff for gradings)

I'm afaid to really understand what I'm saying is to train with the likes of Patrick McCarthy, he may open your eyes to kata.

Full contact karate would you let someone hit you full force in the throat? Gouge your eye out? I would'nt, so full contact karate has rules.

I remember one time sparing with a judo friend he got me in a good ground hold i just could not get out of so i pinched the inside of his leg he released his grip straight away he was not expecting that and if that was a judo tournament i would be disqualified but in the street it would give me the time to escape.

I agree George Dillman has gone nuts, did any of you guys ever hear of Wally Jay of small circle ju jitsu?

What about a knife attack if you had to defend yourself how do you feel you would cope, and before you all start yes there is a v. good chance of getting cut no matter how good you are.

Baggio...

Vas_Guy wrote:

Its difficult for me to explain to you guys who are not involved in traditional karate or who were poorly trained and have a grudge against karate/

You keep saying that we should train with "X, Y and Z" guys. But have you considered that you should try something new, or train with someone beyond your own comfort zone? How much stuff have you done or scrutinized on the RBSD side of things?

I still train in Karate, and I quite enjoy it (as a hobby only). However, I think that Katas and Forms are something that are "nice" to do, and have certain benefits. Are they suitable for real violence? No, not really... I know certain people think they are, but those people generally do not under stand or have faced real violence.

Whenever you try and equate those moves (from a Kata, etc.) in a boxing ring (under full contact) or up against fully resisting opponent you'll soon see that Katas wont stand up to the pressure. I don't care who it is.

All the forms I've ever done, and still do are all based on "defensive" maneuvers. Which are pretty useless when you think about it, as "action will always beat reaction" at close range - which is the range that street fights occur incidentally, as opposed to the manufactured "Dojo range". it's just pure physics and human physiology.

So if you're interested in real self defense there's a myriad of things you could do that would be better in my opinion (and that have been proved to work under real combat conditions). While I'm biased towards "Combatives" (or CQC) and RBSD type material. Many of the other sports like, Boxing, Muai Thai, MMA, BJJ are far superior in my opinion - to that of traditional Kata training, and it's application.

Vas_Guy wrote:

Patrick McCarthy, he may open your eyes to kata.

I doubt that.... Luckily my eyes were opened by guys like Geoff Thompson, Lee Morrison and Carl Cestari.

Mark Hamill

Vas_Guy wrote:

I remember one time sparing with a judo friend he got me in a good ground hold i just could not get out of so i pinched the inside of his leg he released his grip straight away he was not expecting that and if that was a judo tournament i would be disqualified but in the street it would give me the time to escape.

Yes but do you think that he would just hold you if the fight was in the street?
All those "I could just pinch/bite/scratch you if you did that" excuses work both ways and if someone can pinch/bite/scratch you while pinning you down, then you are screwed.

Baggio...

Vas_Guy wrote:

What about a knife attack if you had to defend yourself how do you feel you would cope, and before you all start yes there is a v. good chance of getting cut no matter how good you are.

I'd love to hear how you'd deal with a knife....

StrateBlastJim

Vas_Guy wrote:

I remember one time sparing with a judo friend he got me in a good ground hold i just could not get out of so i pinched the inside of his leg he released his grip straight away he was not expecting that and if that was a judo tournament i would be disqualified but in the street it would give me the time to escape.

You pinched his leg? nice, can i ask you though if it were a sd situation what would he have been able to do to you?? probably eye gouge you punch you etc.

Did you agree on rules before the sparring session?? was he aware that pinching was allowed? also did you sparr again after he became aware what techniques where allowed, and how did that sparr end?

Jamie

Colm_OReilly

You know guys, I think this is the first ever thread where all the TMA, MMA and RBSD guys are in agreement. It's strangely serene here...

mikeruurds

Colm_OReilly wrote:

You know guys, I think this is the first ever thread where all the TMA, MMA and RBSD guys are in agreement. It's strangely serene here...

The calm before the storm. Well I hope it stays this way .