Muscle recovery time?

Frankiestylee

I started doing weight training more regularly but started to notice it was having less effect when I did the same weights everyday, so in random conversation at work I find out that muscles need rest in order to grow (seems obvious in hindsight). Just wondering what the optimum time is, I was told 3 days and 5 days. I'm kinda hoping it's less as I tend to do weights more then cardio (though I'd prefer it vice versa).

Hanley

Depends on a lot of variables to be honest. 3-5 days before repeating the same movement is advisable, espeically if you go near failure.

Muscle recovery itself isn't as important as movement pattern recovery in my opinion. Like I might train my back 3 times a week, but I wouldn't repeat the same movement in any of those sessions.

And if I am training a body part multiple times a week, I'll do at most 2 different movements per day.

Like for my back this week:

Wednesday - dumbbell rows and pull ups
Saturday - Face pulls and pull downs
Tuesday - Deadlifts

Any help?

Frankiestylee

Ah I get ya, so the problem isn't working the particular muscle group too much, it's doing the same excercises over and over? Cool, that's good to know, I tend to do such stuff when the mood takes me and I the idea of having enforced "downtime".

cowzerp

As a rule the larger muscle groups take more recovery than the smaller muscles like biceps and such, anywhere from 2 days to 1 week based on normal training systems. Powerlifters have been known to need 19 days recovery between hardcore training sessions on legs-this does not mean that they dont train but do maintenance days in between the gap. this way they fully benefit from the hardcore training and also dont lose muscle mass during the rest time.

Hanley

cowzerp wrote:

As a rule the larger muscle groups take more recovery than the smaller muscles like biceps and such, anywhere from 2 days to 1 week based on normal training systems. Powerlifters have been known to need 19 days recovery between hardcore training sessions on legs-this does not mean that they dont train but do maintenance days in between the gap. this way they fully benefit from the hardcore training and also dont lose muscle mass during the rest time.

I don't know any powerlifter that takes 19 days off between lifts.

cowzerp

Hanley wrote:

I don't know any powerlifter that takes 19 days off between lifts.

Hanley you are not a professional power lifter-you are some dude who does power lifting, i was not talking about you-anyway, fred hatfield also known as Dr Squat-He power lifted 1014lbs in a competitive squat and is known in the fitness industry as the authority in Squating, Go to www.drsquat.com and you will see articles on periodising training, i learned this when i done my pt course issa and it is based mainly on power lifting and bodybuilding. your meant to tell us what you know, not what you dont know.

Hanley

cowzerp wrote:

Hanley you are not a professional power lifter-you are some dude who does power lifting, i was not talking about you-anyway, fred hatfield also known as Dr Squat-He power lifted 1014lbs in a competitive squat and is known in the fitness industry as the authority in Squating, Go to www.drsquat.com and you will see articles on periodising training, i learned this when i done my pt course issa and it is based mainly on power lifting and bodybuilding. your meant to tell us what you know, not what you dont know.

Dude, seriously, you need open your eyes to more than one source here.

I know DRUG FREE guys (jsut so you can't say anything about gear blah blah blah) who've squatted 300, 310 and 320kg in 3 successive weeks. One of the guys is 100kg and 45 years old. You try telling him that he should be recovering long and see what he says.

Just by looking at the way you're post's written, and the way you refer to certain things, it's clear you don't have a clue about what actually happens in the powerlifting worlds. ISSA and courses don't mean you know anything. You don't read a book or attend a few seminares and then attempt to tell someone how to do open heart surgery.

Dragan

Cowzerp,

19 days recovery would be for the CNS, not muscle recovery. You really should make that distinction in your post.

I also think it's pretty funny that you call Hanley "just some dude who does power lifting". You talking to the 2nd Strongest Juniour Power Lifter in the country.

His power lifting experience trumps yours. You say you have talked to power lifters. He is one. You've read about periodisation, he's done it.

Hanley, you can't really tell people to shut up on the board. It's not how we do things in this forum.

Any more out of either of you and it's banning time.

Hanley

Ok sorry, Dragan. I'll edit it out. Give me a few minutes and I'll put together a proper post that outlines reasons for my outburst and backs them up with multiple real world examples.

Transform

Agreed 19 days is too long

Kind of harks back to HIT mike mentzer and co

Long recovery may be needed if you are the kind of person that is not taking advantge of recovery stratigies e.g. plunge pool, baths, supplements, massage etc

Varying intensity = varying recovery time.

If your overall lifts are improving i.e. your getting stonger then stick to it if not vary the program. Outline it here and we can offer comments - frankiestylee

brianthebard

Hanley wrote:

You don't read a book or attend a few seminares and then attempt to tell someone how to do open heart surgery.

I did that before, it was kind of messy. Luckily the dude was old and poor anyways, so no one missed him.

Hanley

Ok so as promised;

You cite Fred Hatfield as an example so he's as good a place to start as any. He's primarily a squat specialist. I don't think I've ever heard anyone mention anything about his other lifts. Fred's vey suited to squatting. Short legs, medium torso. Is this why he's such a good squatter? No. But it certainly helps. He's not even the best ever. That alone should give an indication that his style of training isn't the final word. Did it work for him? Yup. Does that mean it will work for anyone else?? Not neccesarily.

Are you familiar with Wade Hooper? He's at the opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to training frequency. He's a 75kg lifer. Won the USAPL champs for over 10 years in a row now. Multiple world champion and record holder.
How does he train? Modified Sheiko. I'm not sure if you've come across the system but basically it's evolved from the original template outlined by Master of Sports, Boris Sheiko. Wade squats 2x a week with intenstiy going from 70-90% depending on the stage of the cycle. Deadlifts 2x a week too. Similar intensity levels. Benches 2x a week.He trains 3/4x a week. The sessions take a minimum of 2 hours. And sometimes closer to 4.

Wade's best lifts are 347.5kg squat, 242.5kg bench and a 267.5kg deadlift. I'm don't know if you can even comprehend how insane those numbers are for a 75kg drug free guy.


Right in the middle of both extremes you've guys like Brad Gillingham. He's a n IPF master like, 125+kg. His total would have won the senior open this year. He trains mostly raw, 5x5 squats weekly with varying intensity and 1rm rack pulls every 2 weeks. His system is brutally hard too, but for different reasons than Wades. With Sheiko there's not much room for assitance work because you're going so many core lifts (maybe 20 sets of squatting per day, 40ish a week), but with 5x5 assitance work is what makes or breaks the program.

Then you've Andy Bolton, strongest man in the world. He trains COMPLETELY differently to Wade Hooper. Who in turns trains totally differently to Brad Gillingham. None of whom train remotely similarly to Fred Hatfield.

The common bond? They're all world champions.

For me, notthing has made my lifts go up like adding in volume. I've gotten signifcantly bigger, and a hell of a lot stronger.

Look at Bulgarian weightlifters in the 80s and early 90s, they trained 5/6x PER DAY. 4-6 times per week. that's between 20 and 36 sessions.

When it comes down to it, most people aren't over trained, they're just under conditioned.

cowzerp

I clearly stated that there would be maintanence training days between rest periods-16(edited because of type error-i meant 16 days)16 days is an extreme example used after extreme training sessions on legs and usually done before tounaments not after all sessions br Dr Squat who's a world record holder in Squatting-He was 45 when he squatted 1014 lbs in 1987.He is not only an experienced athlete but also a highly qualified fitness specialist-as i said before-He is known as the king of squats by most Power lifters and fitness specialists..
DR squats achievements
Holds the IPF Men's Open World Record in the Squat at 90 kg. (198.41 lbs.) Bodyweight with a 375 kg. (826.73 lbs.) Squat on 8/11/80 in Arlington, TX
Holds the IPF Men's Master I 40-49) World Record in the Squat at 100 kg. (220.46 lbs.) Bodyweight with a 370 kg. (815.7 lbs.) Squat in 12/11/83 on 12/11/83 in Gothenberg, Sweden
Holds the IPF Men's Master I (40-49) World Record total at 100 kg. (220.46 lbs.) Bodyweight with a 920 kg. (2028.23 lbs.) Total on 12/11/83 in Gothenberg, Sweden
1983 IPF World Champion at 100 kg. (220.46 lbs.) Bodyweight with 370(815.7 lbs.)--215(473.99 lbs.)--335(738.54 lbs.)--920(2028.23 lbs.)
1986 IPF World Champion at 110 kg. (242 lbs.) Bodyweight with 370(815.7 lbs.)--207.5(457.45 lbs.)--325(716.5 lbs.)--902.5(1989.65 lbs.)
1986 2nd Place USPF Men's US Championships at 110 kg. (242 lbs.) Bodyweight with 380(837.75 lbs.)--217.5(479.5 lbs.)--332.5(733.03 lbs.)--930(2050.28 lbs.)

Dragan

Cowzerp,

please try and deal with the OP's question. If you want to discuss Dr Squat then open a new thread to do so.

I suggest we wait till the OP comes back and answers Dom's questions before we go any further.

Thank you.

Beelzebub

Bulgarian weightlifters and their regimes/methods are not a valid reference given their track record.

Frankiestylee

Transform wrote:

Varying intensity = varying recovery time.

If your overall lifts are improving i.e. your getting stonger then stick to it if not vary the program. Outline it here and we can offer comments - frankiestylee

Ah, I'm nowhere near as serious as all you lads, I'm just doing some casual weights to try and keep muscle mass while trying to lose some weight.

I was used to mainly low rep high resistance stuff mainly from playing rugby, gym etc, but I haven't played rugby for awhile and I'm no longer in a gym so I've just gone back to eating better and doing high rep/low resistance. I was really just curious as to recovery time because initially my muscles got smaller but more defined (Is this "toning"? I know there's a lot of debate about the definition), but I expected them to eventually start to bulk up but I think my problem was doing the same work out every night. If I did it three days in a row I would be grand on the 3rd day, but if I stopped on the 4th, I'd then be aching like crazy (which I guess was my muscles screaming for recovery).

Is it possible to weaken your muscles by over working them?

King of Kings

Beelzebub wrote:

Bulgarian weightlifters and their regimes/methods are not a valid reference given their track record.

enlighten us?

Hanley

King of Kings wrote:

enlighten us?

He's talking about steroid use.

King of Kings

Hanley wrote:

He's talking about steroid use.

oh....

cowzerp

Frankiestylee wrote:

I was really just curious as to recovery time because initially my muscles got smaller but more defined (Is this "toning"? I know there's a lot of debate about the definition), but I expected them to eventually start to bulk up but I think my problem was doing the same work out every night. If I did it three days in a row I would be grand on the 3rd day, but if I stopped on the 4th, I'd then be aching like crazy (which I guess was my muscles screaming for recovery).
Is it possible to weaken your muscles by over working them?

As a definite rule-You must give a muscle group 1 day recovery as a bare minimum or else you are doing more harm than good, Its this recovery stage that makes muscle tone and grow-Tone basically means that your muscle is in a state of alertness-kind of semi tensed all the time, if you are using a muscle it believes it must be prepared for action and becomes toned. this is a primitive thing that our bodies do-thats why most wildlife are always toned-Hunt or be hunted sort of stuff!

Hanley

wow, just wow.

cowzerp

Hanley wrote:

wow, just wow.

Whats that supposed to mean?

Dragan

cowzerp wrote:

As a definite rule-You must give a muscle group 1 day recovery as a bare minimum or else you are doing more harm than good, Its this recovery stage that makes muscle tone and grow-Tone basically means that your muscle is in a state of alertness-kind of semi tensed all the time, if you are using a muscle it believes it must be prepared for action and becomes toned. this is a primitive thing that our bodies do-thats why most wildlife are always toned-Hunt or be hunted sort of stuff!

Tone is the elastic tension of living muscle. I would disagree with you saying that they are "kind of semi tensed" all the time, as this somehow implies the muscle is causing itself to be in some state other than "natural".... that tension is simply a natural part of the function and structure of a muscle.

You post kind of implies that physically activity causes your muscles to sit there and think "wow, i might get used in a second, better be half tensed" and while i know what you are trying to say i am simply disagreeing with the way you say it.

Muscular effectiveness is due to a myriad of different factors and body functions, the apparent "tone" of most wildlife is because not a lot of animals can afford to feed themselves to the point of obesity, once again due a large number of varying factors.

Frankiestylee

Awww, I totally understood the primal alertness thing, but now it seems it's wrong. Damn, heh heh, ah well, if it's kinda the gyst of the thing then I kinda get it. Good good.

So you can do damage to yourself from continued use? Ah cool cool, I suspected as much but wasn't sure, I'll most definitly vary my workout. Before I started thinking about this I'd kinda go along the "right, I need to work on my biceps and pecks" so that's what I'd do every night. Knowledge is power, yay!

Boru.

cowzerp wrote:

As a definite rule-You must give a muscle group 1 day recovery as a bare minimum or else you are doing more harm than good,

I disagree with that statement completely. While it may be true for "a" method of training, that 1 day is a required minimum for recovery, it is not true that that for a "b" method. I can think of over a dozen effective and independantly tested programs since the early 1920's that would advocate daily, and on occasion twice daily training, of the same body parts.

I can also think of several current training systems that are both popular and effective that would advocate multiple daily workouts of the same muscles and the even the same exercises.

Recovery rates are based on the volume and intensity of the workout. That alone should dictate your recovery rate. The volume and intensity of which should be based on your specific train goals. If you are doing more intense work for a specific purpose say powerlifting you may need more recovery time then say some training for a neurological strength (eg. a particular skill say a pull up or a reverse punch).

There are NO absolute laws regarding exercise, recovery etc. Despite the many advances of science we have yet to definitively answer the exact method by which a muscle contracts. We currently operate under the sliding filament theory, but this has substantial gaps and could be proven wrong. If we can not answer the question of how a muscle contracts in the first place we have no basis on which to say that there are any definite answers on the question of recovery.

This too can be applied to lenghty recovery cycles also.

At the end of the day the only thing that can dictate an individuals recovery time is that individual, judged soley on his prior experiecnce, analysis of his training regieme and results, diet, goals and physical make up. It is impossible to offer any real meaningful advice without such details.

I know athletes (and protocols) that train several times a day everyday of the same bodypart, and others that train as infrequently as once a month and still maintain impressive gains within the parameters of their goals.

As regards the OP's question - Hanley did a good job of answering and gave an example of a particualr training routine and his own expereicne of recovery rates within that. Furtherm ore as Transform stated, varying intensity = varying recovery times.

With the casual weight lifting described by the OP the genreal recovery time would be approximately 48hrs. So you could perform a full body routine every 2nd day if you wish. However should you plateau, or feel your energy, and enthusiasm drop schedule 5-7 days off and return fresh and invigorated.

As regards your question on weakening the msucles by overwokring them certainly. Conventional weightlifting causes small micro tears int he msucle fiber, primarily due to increased blood flow. These tears msut be repaired and this takes time. Interfearing with this growth and receovery process can lead to increasing worn muscles and often results in repetitive strain injuries and low grade muscle strain.

In may be of intrest to note that reports indicate the optimal time for muscle recovery when lifitng a miximal load once was apporximately 7 days on average, though some indivudals took as little as 5 to peak and others took as long as 9.

In summary - everybody is different and you better then anyone else can judge how you feel.

Hanley

Boru. wrote:

I disagree with that statement completely. While it may be true for "a" method of training, that 1 day is a required minimum for recovery, it is not true that that for a "b" method. I can think of over a dozen effective and independantly tested programs since the early 1920's that would advocate daily, and on occasion twice daily training, of the same body parts.

I can also think of several current training systems that are both popular and effective that would advocate multiple daily workouts of the same muscles and the even the same exercises.

Recovery rates are based on the volume and intensity of the workout. That alone should dictate your recovery rate. The volume and intensity of which should be based on your specific train goals. If you are doing more intense work for a specific purpose say powerlifting you may need more recovery time then say some training for a neurological strength (eg. a particular skill say a pull up or a reverse punch).

There are NO absolute laws regarding exercise, recovery etc. Despite the many advances of science we have yet to definitively answer the exact method by which a muscle contracts. We currently operate under the sliding filament theory, but this has substantial gaps and could be proven wrong. If we can not answer the question of how a muscle contracts in the first place we have no basis on which to say that there are any definite answers on the question of recovery.

This too can be applied to lenghty recovery cycles also.

At the end of the day the only thing that can dictate an individuals recovery time is that individual, judged soley on his prior experiecnce, analysis of his training regieme and results, diet, goals and physical make up. It is impossible to offer any real meaningful advice without such details.

I know athletes (and protocols) that train several times a day everyday of the same bodypart, and others that train as infrequently as once a month and still maintain impressive gains within the parameters of their goals.

As regards the OP's question - Hanley did a good job of answering and gave an example of a particualr training routine and his own expereicne of recovery rates within that. Furtherm ore as Transform stated, varying intensity = varying recovery times.

With the casual weight lifting described by the OP the genreal recovery time would be approximately 48hrs. So you could perform a full body routine every 2nd day if you wish. However should you plateau, or feel your energy, and enthusiasm drop schedule 5-7 days off and return fresh and invigorated.

As regards your question on weakening the msucles by overwokring them certainly. Conventional weightlifting causes small micro tears int he msucle fiber, primarily due to increased blood flow. These tears msut be repaired and this takes time. Interfearing with this growth and receovery process can lead to increasing worn muscles and often results in repetitive strain injuries and low grade muscle strain.

In may be of intrest to note that reports indicate the optimal time for muscle recovery when lifitng a miximal load once was apporximately 7 days on average, though some indivudals took as little as 5 to peak and others took as long as 9.

In summary - everybody is different and you better then anyone else can judge how you feel.

The definitive word. No body else needs to reply to this thread now unless they have a question.

Frankiestylee

Cheers Boru, that was indeed a very definitivetastico answer

Boru.

Your welcome. Glad I could help. If you find anything in your training routine or recovery unclear feel free to pm me.

cowzerp

My definition of tone is just a basic way of explaining to people that toned just means hard-muscle tone is only possible if your body is working out on a regular basis-this is a response from the nervous system that keeps your muscles half on all the time-Animals are like that because fear more so than working out, and the low body fat of animals makes it visible-yes i agree with that dragan-if you's had a clue you's would know thats what i was saying rather than try to change it into something i did not say.
And when i say 1 day recovery is minimum, I am talking about for resistance training not cardio-if you dont need at least 1 day recovery you have not took part in worthwhile resistance training-There is way to many smart arses on this forum who think they are the only 1's allowed to answer on it-any time any one qualified try's to help they get shot down by these insecure people who feel its them against us-grow up, and you's know who you's are-i've also seen it been done to other people who are only trying to help,
very sad little men- Big bodies dont make big men.

Dragan

Folks, discuss the posts, not the posters.

Cowzerp, your post is bordering on personal abuse so please keep things polite. No need to get upset as my disagreement was more with the WAY you made your point, as oppossed to what you were saying. I made this very clear in my post.

cowzerp

Dragan in a smaller part i was refering to you but more so other users-i get attacked every time i make a post even when i know the answer is correct-sometimes i should try make it more technical but this is not meant for the more knowledgable people, its meant for people only learning-i like this forum but get annoyed every time i answer i'm shot down, espeicially as i know who is going to do it every time. fair is fair-its not like we are getting paid for giving out advise.

Dragan

cowzerp wrote:

fair is fair-its not like we are getting paid for giving out advise.

A fairly typical new PT response.

If you want to give advice then do so, if you don't then don't post. If you do offer advice then please do so in a clear and concise manner.

We are looking to have some sharp and enquiring minds on this board and they will ask question and we need to expect that to happen.

I feel the problem may be that you sometimes offer a blanket answer to a specific problem and people see this information as being incorrect? For example this thread, rather than ask the OP about there training you went into how some powerlifters take 19 days to recover from leg workouts....you didn't actually deal with the question, or give the specific circumstances that this might occur.

We are dealing with text here and can only go off what people post and the context in which it's posted.

cowzerp

cowzerp wrote:

As a rule the larger muscle groups take more recovery than the smaller muscles like biceps and such, anywhere from 2 days to 1 week based on normal training systems. Powerlifters have been known to need 16 days recovery between hardcore training sessions on legs-this does not mean that they dont train but do maintenance days in between the gap. this way they fully benefit from the hardcore training and also dont lose muscle mass during the rest time.

I was very specific on rest and recovery, giving rest days for normal good training,
19 days was a type error-i meant 16, i answered the question clearly and gave the extreme answer aswell to make a point of recovery importance, Dragan i honestly thought you where going to accept some responsibility for letting the posts get personal-i know that there is a couple of people on this board who watch out for my name and jump in with sarcastic, unhelpful attacks-Dragan-this board has become a joke of late and is been ran like a dictatorship-im not going to waste my time answering on it while its like this-Im off to pages where i wont get attacked for trying to help. i'll; still read with interest but not posting for a while anyway.

Dragan

Cowzerp,

if you ever feel like anyone is waiting for you to post simply to attack it then simply PM myself or Daveirl and we will look into it for you. Alternatively you can simply report the thread and it will be made known to all Mods and someone will have a look at it for you.

Beelzebub

Boru. wrote:

I disagree with that statement completely. While it may be true for "a" method of training, that 1 day is a required minimum for recovery, it is not true that that for a "b" method. I can think of over a dozen effective and independantly tested programs since the early 1920's that would advocate daily, and on occasion twice daily training, of the same body parts.

I can also think of several current training systems that are both popular and effective that would advocate multiple daily workouts of the same muscles and the even the same exercises.

Recovery rates are based on the volume and intensity of the workout. That alone should dictate your recovery rate. The volume and intensity of which should be based on your specific train goals. If you are doing more intense work for a specific purpose say powerlifting you may need more recovery time then say some training for a neurological strength (eg. a particular skill say a pull up or a reverse punch).

There are NO absolute laws regarding exercise, recovery etc. Despite the many advances of science we have yet to definitively answer the exact method by which a muscle contracts. We currently operate under the sliding filament theory, but this has substantial gaps and could be proven wrong. If we can not answer the question of how a muscle contracts in the first place we have no basis on which to say that there are any definite answers on the question of recovery.

This too can be applied to lenghty recovery cycles also.

At the end of the day the only thing that can dictate an individuals recovery time is that individual, judged soley on his prior experiecnce, analysis of his training regieme and results, diet, goals and physical make up. It is impossible to offer any real meaningful advice without such details.

I know athletes (and protocols) that train several times a day everyday of the same bodypart, and others that train as infrequently as once a month and still maintain impressive gains within the parameters of their goals.

As regards the OP's question - Hanley did a good job of answering and gave an example of a particualr training routine and his own expereicne of recovery rates within that. Furtherm ore as Transform stated, varying intensity = varying recovery times.

With the casual weight lifting described by the OP the genreal recovery time would be approximately 48hrs. So you could perform a full body routine every 2nd day if you wish. However should you plateau, or feel your energy, and enthusiasm drop schedule 5-7 days off and return fresh and invigorated.

As regards your question on weakening the msucles by overwokring them certainly. Conventional weightlifting causes small micro tears int he msucle fiber, primarily due to increased blood flow. These tears msut be repaired and this takes time. Interfearing with this growth and receovery process can lead to increasing worn muscles and often results in repetitive strain injuries and low grade muscle strain.

In may be of intrest to note that reports indicate the optimal time for muscle recovery when lifitng a miximal load once was apporximately 7 days on average, though some indivudals took as little as 5 to peak and others took as long as 9.

In summary - everybody is different and you better then anyone else can judge how you feel.

You say:
"I can think of over a dozen effective and independantly tested programs since the early 1920's that would advocate daily, and on occasion twice daily training, of the same body parts."

I am interested in knowing more about these programs, do you have links to them etc?

You also say:

"I can also think of several current training systems that are both popular and effective that would advocate multiple daily workouts of the same muscles and the even the same exercises. "

Again I am very interested in knowing more about these training systems, do you have links to the data for them also?

Hanley

So does anyone know if the OP is actually happy with the answers he got and understands things now??

Hanley

Beelzebub wrote:

You say:
"I can think of over a dozen effective and independantly tested programs since the early 1920's that would advocate daily, and on occasion twice daily training, of the same body parts."

I am interested in knowing more about these programs, do you have links to them etc?

You also say:

"I can also think of several current training systems that are both popular and effective that would advocate multiple daily workouts of the same muscles and the even the same exercises. "

Again I am very interested in knowing more about these training systems, do you have links to the data for them also?

Lets take it over here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=53037954#post53037954

Beelzebub

Hanley wrote:

Lets take it over here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=53037954#post53037954

Let's just wait for Boru's response first, if you don't mind, as my question(s) are directed to him.

bilbo79

Is hanley the new MOD around here? He sure is throwing his weight (EGO) around, Cowzerp should stay as he only gives honest straight forward answers
i am also a trainer and feel the same way on these boards
A trainer deals with 100's of people every month and needs to simplify the science of exercise so that it is understood
That is what i do and i believe what Cowzerp does also
If you need to use all the scientific jargon you are only massaging your own ego
If your talking to a very advanced client then maybe its o'k
But some lad who asks a basic question about recovery does not need complicated answers.
Why does Hanley feel the need to knock others?
wow, just wow. Thats just rude and not helping the op.

Beelzebub

bilbo79 wrote:

Is hanley the new MOD around here? He sure is throwing his weight (EGO) around, Cowzerp should stay as he only gives honest straight forward answers
i am also a trainer and feel the same way on these boards
A trainer deals with 100's of people every month and needs to simplify the science of exercise so that it is understood
That is what i do and i believe what Cowzerp does also
If you need to use all the scientific jargon you are only massaging your own ego
If your talking to a very advanced client then maybe its o'k
But some lad who asks a basic question about recovery does not need complicated answers.
Why does Hanley feel the need to knock others?
wow, just wow. Thats just rude and not helping the op.

I agree with you there.

Hanley

bilbo79 wrote:

Is hanley the new MOD around here? He sure is throwing his weight (EGO) around, Cowzerp should stay as he only gives honest straight forward answers
i am also a trainer and feel the same way on these boards
A trainer deals with 100's of people every month and needs to simplify the science of exercise so that it is understood
That is what i do and i believe what Cowzerp does also
If you need to use all the scientific jargon you are only massaging your own ego
If your talking to a very advanced client then maybe its o'k
But some lad who asks a basic question about recovery does not need complicated answers.
Why does Hanley feel the need to knock others?
wow, just wow. Thats just rude and not helping the op.

When did I give a complicated answer?? Read my first post in this thread.

Do you remember Cowzerps first post?? He made a blanket statement about an extremely advanced trainee (Fred "Dr. Squat" Hatfield), a post which was completly irrelavant to the OP's question, since he's not in the same league. Yet you have the cheek to criticise ME about offering unapplicable advice. Nonsense.

Who said anything about me being a mod? I was curious to hear peoples views on a topic without de-reailing an existing one. so I started a new thread. What's the problem there?

There was nothing straight forward about Cowzerps psuedo-scientifice answer. Are you even aware of what it takes to become ISSA certified?

When did I attempt to jazz up my posts by using anything outside of plain english?? I'm not the one who started talking about animals and their semi-tonues alertness crap.

"Wow, just wow" was in response to the worst analogies and explanations I've ever seen. I'm pretty sure it had no function or relevance to the thread at all, and as a result did not serve the purpose of answering the OP's question.

When have I ever thrown my ego around? In case you didn't notice I didn't start the thread about the National PL champs. Nor did I mention my result ANYWHERE outside of that thread. Nor have I talked abouy any titles or records that I hold.

Basically, what you've after doing is jumping to Cowzerp's defence, without reading or even attempting to understand the points being made. Being a "trainer" doesn't mean you know anything about real world training. It means you passed an exam. I've the height of respect and admiration for guys like Boru and Transform, people who've gotten real world results and aren't afraid to back it up. But for people like you, none.

In the process of your little attack you've dragged this thread even FURTHER off topic. All in some vain attempt to call me out and criticise me. I foresee this thread being locked because of what you've started.

Hanley

Beelzebub wrote:

I agree with you there.

I remember you!! You're the guy who doesn't think Bulgarian weightlifers are a valid reference point on recovery abilities and training frequency because of their anabolics usage.

mickoo

Hanley wrote:

When did I give a complicated answer?? Read my first post in this thread.

Do you remember Cowzerps first post?? He made a blanket statement about an extremely advanced trainee (Fred "Dr. Squat" Hatfield), a post which was completly irrelavant to the OP's question, since he's not in the same league. Yet you have the cheek to criticise ME about offering unapplicable advice. Nonsense.

Who said anything about me being a mod? I was curious to hear peoples views on a topic without de-reailing an existing one. so I started a new thread. What's the problem there?

There was nothing straight forward about Cowzerps psuedo-scientifice answer. Are you even aware of what it takes to become ISSA certified?

When did I attempt to jazz up my posts by using anything outside of plain english?? I'm not the one who started talking about animals and their semi-tonues alertness crap.

"Wow, just wow" was in response to the worst analogies and explanations I've ever seen. I'm pretty sure it had no function or relevance to the thread at all, and as a result did not serve the purpose of answering the OP's question.

When have I ever thrown my ego around? In case you didn't notice I didn't start the thread about the National PL champs. Nor did I mention my result ANYWHERE outside of that thread. Nor have I talked abouy any titles or records that I hold.

Basically, what you've after doing is jumping to Cowzerp's defence, without reading or even attempting to understand the points being made. Being a "trainer" doesn't mean you know anything about real world training. It means you passed an exam. I've the height of respect and admiration for guys like Boru and Transform, people who've gotten real world results and aren't afraid to back it up. But for people like you, none.

In the process of your little attack you've dragged this thread even FURTHER off topic. All in some vain attempt to call me out and criticise me. I foresee this thread being locked because of what you've started.

I've read the whole post and find what your saying total crap, cowzerp gave a normal answer and then an extreme answer and has tried to explain this but you wont let it go, and the animal thing is a perfect example of what tone is, and there was a question before that asking for an explanation of what tone was so that was not off topic-cowzerp is an all ireland boxing champion and has also boxed for ireland so i think thats real world stuff-in the gym he works in he is highly thought of by the other staff and by the bodybuilders and fitness people alike-He does not try to complicate exercise to make himself sound great, you've knocked him numerous times for this. Your definetly the 1 that cowzerp is refering to, grow up as your not helping this topic at all-only criticism has come from you on this topic..

Boru.

First I'd like to address cowzerp. If I offended you in anyway I apologize.

cowzerp wrote:

And when i say 1 day recovery is minimum, I am talking about for resistance training not cardio-if you dont need at least 1 day recovery you have not took part in worthwhile resistance training

For the record and for the sake of clarity I was also refferring to resistance training, not cardio as cardio had no bearing on the OP's question. As regards any system being worthwhile or not I would consider such dogmatic decleration that my or anyone elses training system as a waste of time slightly insulting - without stated goals upon which a system is based and its success in attaining them you cannot judge the nature of that training, regardless of recovery etc.

I am not intrested in debating the character of quality of another individual who posts on this site. I trust the readers to determine on their own the quaility of an individual based on his conduct and manner both on and off the board.

My sole intrest on this board, and on the others I post in is in providing useful informaiton that can be used to improve everyone's health. If you have a problem with the manner in which I present my information, or if you feel I have insulted or insinuated anything against you please feel free to pm me and I'd be more than happy to discuss it, or alternatively if you wish it to have independant mediation I'm sure it could be arranged.

Beelzebub, I would commend you to read the entire of this site http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/compindex.htm - perhaps one of the greatest internet resources available. Here you will find dozens of time tested courses that recomend daily training.

In particular I would recoemend an in depth study of the works of A.P. Swoboba, Earle Liderman, Maxick, Eugene Sandow, and of course Charles Atlas, whose course on Dynamic Tension is still a huge seller today (charlesatlas.com).

All of these men advocated multiple daily training regiemes. Atlas for instance would recomened repeated sets of Atlas Pushups ect every day both mroning and night ofr one's whole life.

As would Paul Bragg who died in a windsuffering accident at the age of 97.:eek:

There is a huge tradition of daily mutliple training that has proven to be successful in achieveing specific results, from ancient martial arts and systems such as yoga, to Pilates and finally the modern day systems utilised by people from Kennedy to Atlas, to Steve Justa.

Furthermore, as I mentioned, many modern systems would recomend multiple sets per day. Perhaps the most well known is Pavel Tsatsouline who advocates a method called Greasing the Groove in his book the Naked Warrior - holding that strength is a skill and that repeated daily training, never to failure, keeps both the muscles and the nerves fresh and allows you to develop the neurological strength necessary to susbtancially increase your both stength and muscular endurance.

Of course there is also Jim Forystek and his Powerflex system..with a similar approach to Atlas, Liderman, et al.

And then there is my own system and studies of Isometrics - which you can find more info on on my website (links in the sig) - but I'll say no more on that - pm me if you like.

While I do not advocte this system of training for everyone it certainly has merits within it's stated goals and objectives. If you want to look like a bodybuilder train like one, if you want the functional ability of a gymnast train like one. Define a goal then use the system most suited for that goal.

For instance I currently only train in a specific form of strength training once very 24 days per body part and continue to make incredibile gains in terms of my stated goal of incresing strength within a specifc range of motion. (you can read my blog here - http://www.teamtestforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=866&start=120)

Yet I frequently recomend other systems of training inculding mutliple daily workouts, such as developed by Atlas etc. It very much depends on the individual and their goals.

I would personally have several problems with conventional weight lifting from a long term medical basis, and no longer recomend it to my clients (with one specfic exception), as oppossed to bodyweight based systems and isometrics whcih I feel are a healhtier and safer long term system of physical development.

If you have any specifc questions regarding these or any other system of training please feel free to pm me and I'll do my best to point you in the right direction.

Beelzebub

Hanley wrote:

I remember you!! You're the guy who doesn't think Bulgarian weightlifers are a valid reference point on recovery abilities and training frequency because of their anabolics usage.

Great memory!!;)
They're not a valid reference point for the natural athlete/trainer who doesn't take steroids.

cowzerp

Boru you have not offended me-when i say resistance training that does not need 1 day recovery i stick by that, if the intensity is so low that you dont need recovery where does the improvement come from? atlas is a legend, but he knew how to train, his ways are long gone as science based training is with us now-i would be interested to hear from you what type of people need the type of training that needs no recovery-who will this benefit? genuine question? im meant to be on strike! but just thought i'd answer your query.

Beelzebub wrote:

Great memory!!;)
They're not a valid reference point for the natural athlete/trainer who doesn't take steroids.

This is correct-no debating this at all from me. Drug users are cheats and certainly not a valid reference for genuine fitness enthuasists.

mickoo

Welcome back cowzerp-please stay! dont let 1 or 2 annoying people stop you posting.

Beelzebub

Boru. wrote:

First I'd like to address cowzerp. If I offended you in anyway I apologize.



For the record and for the sake of clarity I was also refferring to resistance training, not cardio as cardio had no bearing on the OP's question. As regards any system being worthwhile or not I would consider such dogmatic decleration that my or anyone elses training system as a waste of time slightly insulting - without stated goals upon which a system is based and its success in attaining them you cannot judge the nature of that training, regardless of recovery etc.

I am not intrested in debating the character of quality of another individual who posts on this site. I trust the readers to determine on their own the quaility of an individual based on his conduct and manner both on and off the board.

My sole intrest on this board, and on the others I post in is in providing useful informaiton that can be used to improve everyone's health. If you have a problem with the manner in which I present my information, or if you feel I have insulted or insinuated anything against you please feel free to pm me and I'd be more than happy to discuss it, or alternatively if you wish it to have independant mediation I'm sure it could be arranged.

Beelzebub, I would commend you to read the entire of this site http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/compindex.htm - perhaps one of the greatest internet resources available. Here you will find dozens of time tested courses that recomend daily training.

In particular I would recoemend an in depth study of the works of A.P. Swoboba, Earle Liderman, Maxick, Eugene Sandow, and of course Charles Atlas, whose course on Dynamic Tension is still a huge seller today (charlesatlas.com).

All of these men advocated multiple daily training regiemes. Atlas for instance would recomened repeated sets of Atlas Pushups ect every day both mroning and night ofr one's whole life.

As would Paul Bragg who died in a windsuffering accident at the age of 97.:eek:

There is a huge tradition of daily mutliple training that has proven to be successful in achieveing specific results, from ancient martial arts and systems such as yoga, to Pilates and finally the modern day systems utilised by people from Kennedy to Atlas, to Steve Justa.

Furthermore, as I mentioned, many modern systems would recomend multiple sets per day. Perhaps the most well known is Pavel Tsatsouline who advocates a method called Greasing the Groove in his book the Naked Warrior - holding that strength is a skill and that repeated daily training, never to failure, keeps both the muscles and the nerves fresh and allows you to develop the neurological strength necessary to susbtancially increase your both stength and muscular endurance.

Of course there is also Jim Forystek and his Powerflex system..with a similar approach to Atlas, Liderman, et al.

And then there is my own system and studies of Isometrics - which you can find more info on on my website (links in the sig) - but I'll say no more on that - pm me if you like.

While I do not advocte this system of training for everyone it certainly has merits within it's stated goals and objectives. If you want to look like a bodybuilder train like one, if you want the functional ability of a gymnast train like one. Define a goal then use the system most suited for that goal.

For instance I currently only train in a specific form of strength training once very 24 days per body part and continue to make incredibile gains in terms of my stated goal of incresing strength within a specifc range of motion. (you can read my blog here - http://www.teamtestforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=866&start=120)

Yet I frequently recomend other systems of training inculding mutliple daily workouts, such as developed by Atlas etc. It very much depends on the individual and their goals.

I would personally have several problems with conventional weight lifting from a long term medical basis, and no longer recomend it to my clients (with one specfic exception), as oppossed to bodyweight based systems and isometrics whcih I feel are a healhtier and safer long term system of physical development.

If you have any specifc questions regarding these or any other system of training please feel free to pm me and I'll do my best to point you in the right direction.

Thanks for your response Boru.
I was under the impression that you were referring to multiple daily weight training sessions and I see from your answer that you were not.

Some interesting stuff there, though probably a little outdated and without any real scientific data on effectiveness. Interesting nonetheless and worth investigating surely. I will plough through this stuff and see what I make of it.


This guy Pavel Tsatsouline has been discredited somewhat
Fraud Allegations - From Wikipedia.

"On February 2, 2007, former Dragon Door staff instructor, Steve Cotter, accused Pavel of fraudulently claiming to be a Master of Sports in kettlebell sport and plagiarizing many of his articles.[2] Pavel responded that although he was not awarded the Master of Sports degree, he had unofficially achieved the qualifying numbers. He also stated that he had always given due credit to original authors.[3] Cotter later apologized for the angry tone in which he made the accusations, although he stands by the accuracy of his statements."


I is also interesting that you are anti weight training.

Thanks again.

ruck-it

Folks if you have a problem with a post post use the report post button.

JayRoc

cowzerp wrote:

Powerlifters have been known to need 16 days recovery between hardcore training sessions on legs-this does not mean that they dont train but do maintenance days in between the gap.

I thought that was a fairly clear use of an extreme example to illustrate a point, actually.

In my opinion a lot of the other observations you brought up, with regards to recovery from resistance training, would be perfectly applicable in most cases to the average gym-goer, but I think everyone would agree that blanket statements are probably best avoided as there are very few truly ironclad rules of fitness that will apply to everyone all the time.