Ireland - Test Cricket?

whatawaster

Interesting debate just there on BBC test match special.

Can anyone see Ireland ever becoming a Test playing nation in the future?

Would need a lot of investment in facilities and structure and an overhaul of the domestic structure. But there is no doubt we are producing some good players, and in particular good young players. Eg Morgan who is only 20, Rankin, The O'Briens.

Royale with Cheese

If it were to ever happen they'd have to let Irish players who'd previously played for England rejoin the Irish team without having to wait. Personally I don't see it happening. Not enough interest in the sport over here, nowhere to play really, and I doubt Ireland will ever have a cricket team good enough to compete in the test cricket arena.

whatawaster

Maybe we could do a Charlton and take some of their fringe players, inject a bit of team spirit and take on the world

TrueDub

Royale with Cheese wrote:

Personally I don't see it happening. Not enough interest in the sport over here, nowhere to play really, and I doubt Ireland will ever have a cricket team good enough to compete in the test cricket arena.

All true - I don't think we have the strength in depth to sustain a test side, and we certainly don't have the finances to support one. It's a pity, but I can see others following Ed Joyce across the water to try to play test cricket. How many of them will succeed is another matter.

DMC

I can see Ireland getting test status, but only in the context of a two division test championship. If they expanded the ICC World League or Intercontinental Championship into a Test Championship Division 2, then I can see it happening that way. Ireland are a long, long way of playing 3 Tests against the Aussies or England. I don't think that will happen. There isn't the calendar to do so. If established countries like New Zealand cant play a test for 11 months, then what hope does Ireland have muscling in?

The ICC have taken (justly) a bollocking from the established test nations with the way they have run the tournament, along with other aspects. The Full Members will probably not allow a 2nd division of test cricket to happen, because they will not want to play Ireland. Reform of the ICC, mooted by some commentators, won't be in the interest of Ireland, I feel.

Also, another thing to consider is the finances of the ICC. The ICC sponsors and TV money has funded the development of Irish cricket (to an extent) and because they seem to be all sub-continent aimed sponsors, and knowing what happened in this tournament.... I doubt they will be keen to do the same again. If the money falls, then so does the money trickling down to Ireland.

whatawaster

A second test tier would be a great idea. Ireland, Scotland, Kenya and the likes could play 5 day matches against each other and it would give great experience. I'm sure series against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe would also be possible.

We have full one-day status until 2009 so let's hope that on the back of our world cup performance we can get some bigger matches between now and then. It's vital we qualify for the next world cup, and that experience would stand to us in that regard.

TrueDub

whatawaster wrote:

A second test tier would be a great idea. Ireland, Scotland, Kenya and the likes could play 5 day matches against each other and it would give great experience. I'm sure series against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe would also be possible.

This exists, in the form of the Intercontinental Cup - albeit in a league format and 4 day cricket. Ireland are the holders and in the Final to be played in the UK at some stage soon.

DMC

In Chelmsford, Essex, May 21-24.

While it exists and its a handy addition to the calendar, it will never be seen as 2nd division test matches, imo.

mikeruurds

Provided England don't steal all the quality players, I could see Ireland doing fairly well if they were ever awarded Test status.

It wouldn't happen for a while though. If ever.

rockbeer

Without wanting to p1ss on anyone's parade, it's realistically almost impossible to conceive of Ireland being able to compete on equal terms with the test playing nations on an ongoing basis.

Don't get me wrong, what Ireland has achieved in the world cup is fantastic and can only strengthen the game here, but test cricket is played on a whole different level. Even a country like Bangladesh with a vast population and where cricket is the national game has struggled to establish itself at test level. It took Sri Lanka, where cricket is also a religion, decades from when they were first given test status to get to where they are now. Meanwhile here the game is hardly played at school or youth level. Ireland has a decent pool of players currently, but where is the ongoing talent going to come from if the kids don't play the game?

Added to that, the Irish leagues are tiny and not very competitive. There's no first class structure even, so any players wishing to develop their game to that level will have to go to England. It's not a question of England stealing the quality players - it's a case of talented players having to go to England to move up to the next level.

The ICC is rightly determined that test playing countries should be of an appropriate standard. Anything less devalues the game - there's already a problem with players having artificially boosted stats by racking up runs and wickets against Bangladesh and, in recent times, Zimbabwe. When Jason Gillespie scores a test double hundred it makes a mockery of the achievements of the best batsmen.

Having said all that, I think a second tier of test nations is a fine idea which can only help develop the game and infrastrucure here.

thebaz

Why not ? i'd say were better than Zimbabwe, and Bangladesh test status is getting slagged off, did they not just dump India out of the WC - they are improving !

rockbeer

thebaz wrote:

Why not ?

One-day and test cricket are almost two different games. Everything in one-day cricket can conspire to level the sides and create an upset: fielding restrictions, over limits on bowlers, first use of the conditions, dubious umpiring decisions which would even themselves out over 5 days but can be the difference between winning and losing a 50 over game. A single outstanding individual performance rarely wins a test match on its own but is often the decisive factor in a one day game. The inherent nature of the limited overs game (i.e. someone has to win) can act as an equalizer between teams of different class. And luck is a much more critical factor too.

Major upsets very rarely happen over a five-day match. Although in some circumstances the toss can be very significant if e.g. the pitch or conditions very much favour the bowlers at the beginning or end of the game, essentially there is nowhere for a weak team to hide over a five day match and the stronger team will win 99 times out of 100. The weaker team's limitations will inevitably be exposed over the longer period of time.

You're right that Bangladesh's test status has been questioned. How many tests have they actually won? One, I believe, out of 40 or so matches, and that was against a Zimbabwe in crisis and without most of its first choice team.

Now remember that Bangladesh has a population of about 140 million people,and cricket is close to a religion there. How is Ireland going to compete regularly with just 4 million people, most of whom think cricket is the world's most boring game, and a westbrit pastime at that?

thebaz

rockbeer wrote:

Now remember that Bangladesh has a population of about 140 million people,and cricket is close to a religion there. How is Ireland going to compete regularly with just 4 million people, most of whom think cricket is the world's most boring game, and a westbrit pastime at that?

Did we not send Pakistan home, from the WC ?
Whats the popluation of the West Indies, and they do ok usually !
Whats the alternative if the game in Ireland is ever to grow? if our best players continue to become English , cricket in Ireland will continue to compete with squash and hockey, and not with say rugby !

rockbeer

thebaz wrote:

Did we not send Pakistan home, from the WC ?

Maybe you haven't noticed, but the WC is a one-day tournament not test
cricket.

thebaz wrote:

Whats the popluation of the West Indies, and they do ok usually !

I reckon about 6.5 million, but they also have 120 years history of test cricket behind them and once again the game is universal there so you aren't comparing like with like. People in the West Indies are concerned because youngsters are apparently turning away from cricket to American games like Baseball so they might find themselves in the same situation as us in the future. You seem to attach no significance to whether or not the game is widespread.

thebaz wrote:

Whats the alternative if the game in Ireland is ever to grow? if our best players continue to become English , cricket in Ireland will continue to compete with squash and hockey, and not with say rugby !

The alternative imho is to put a proper competitive structure in place. If players could play first class cricket here they might be less inclined to go off to play in England. And if it became strong then test status might start to be a reality. As somebody said elsewhere, the situation is untenable if Ireland's only first class structure is the national team. Alongside that, a second tier test circuit of the likes of Ireland, Scotland, Kenya, Netherlands, Zimbabwe etc. would be an achievable goal, and a proper stepping stone to full test status.

If you really think Ireland could just rock up in places like Australia and India and start winning test matches then I admire your optimism but you're deluded. At the moment Ireland hardly plays anything other than one-day cricket. How in your opinion are Irish players going to prepare themselves for test cricket under the current conditions here in Ireland?

Anyway, you don't just go and knock on the ICC's door and say "Hi, we'd like to play test matches please". It takes time and strong evidence of the ability to compete at that level. At the moment it just isn't going to happen, so you might as well get used to it.

thebaz

you seem happy eneogh to lose our best players , to our bigger nearest neighbour, i know if it was rugby i and many others would be up in arms if o'connell, darcy, o'driscoll declared for england -- likewise in soccer if keane, duff, doyle and given declared for england , using your logic that they would have better chances of winning a chapionship or world cup. As i stated earlier why not have a british and irish lions style test team , like they do with Wales, but make the Irish team Irish for the World Cup, and the English team English -- or maybe youd be in favour of what the UAE , did and allow the importation of a whole team from Pakistan.

Marshy

thebaz wrote:

you seem happy eneogh to lose our best players , to our bigger nearest neighbour, i know if it was rugby i and many others would be up in arms if o'connell, darcy, o'driscoll declared for england -- likewise in soccer if keane, duff, doyle and given declared for england , using your logic that they would have better chances of winning a chapionship or world cup. As i stated earlier why not have a british and irish lions style test team , like they do with Wales, but make the Irish team Irish for the World Cup, and the English team English -- or maybe youd be in favour of what the UAE , did and allow the importation of a whole team from Pakistan.

Yeah but you seem to be ignoring the points that have been made. The likes of rugby, soccer are 2 of the big sports in this country. Generally speaking the national sides are very competitive and players would have no reason to change countries. Cricket is very much a minority sport as we know and the Irish side arent as strong. Yes they have performed admirably in the WC but they rarely get the chance to play against the best sides. As has been said the first step to make the side more competitve is to establish a credible first class system.

With regards to the lions team, I dont know how the likes of bob willis would react to that. It sounds quite unrealistic.

gbh

From what I have observed of Test Cricket its not nessecarily how good or bad a team is that determines whether they are allowed play test cricket. Ireland are as good as Zimbabwe, a former test playing team and maybe not far off Bangladesh, a current playing one.

However, for Test playing teams to start coming here for tests, there are other factors involved. These would be (a) TV rights - How many Austrailians, English, Indians, etc would pay to watch their country play Ireland when there is no traditional or national rivalry at stake. (b) Sponsorship - the sponsors go for the big matches and most number of spectators. Cricket is a minority sport in Ireland with a lot of competing sports so a Test match wouldn't attract as many TV spectators as you would expect.

So I can't see it happening in the near future, but who knows.

Marshy

gbh wrote:

From what I have observed of Test Cricket its not nessecarily how good or bad a team is that determines whether they are allowed play test cricket. Ireland are as good as Zimbabwe, a former test playing team and maybe not far off Bangladesh, a current playing one.

Well the quality of a team is one of the fundamental factors. I mean Zimbabwe may be in dire straits to say the least at the moment but back in the 90's they were competitve. Their test status has been suspended now though.

Alright, bangladesh might not be any world beaters currently but they have the population that should provide good players for the future.

I mean the primary reason there are so few test teams is to preserve the standard of test matches. Thats why they're called tests.

Chucky the tree

The current irish team performing in a test match would be wiped off the floor with everyone.

We might give pakistani's a bit of a scare in the first innings, but then they would destroy us. Ireland will never gain test status.

Marshy

Chucky the tree wrote:

The current irish team performing in a test match would be wiped off the floor with everyone.

We might give pakistani's a bit of a scare in the first innings, but then they would destroy us. Ireland will never gain test status.

Yeah of course the current team wouldnt stand a chance.

I wouldn't be so sure that they'll never get test status though. It mightn't be any time soon but I wouldn't be totally resigned to that belief.

gbh

A lot is made of our small population but I don't think it should make that much difference. I think we have a bigger population than New Zealand and they are the third best team in the world. Zimbabwe or the West Indies don't have a big population to pick from. And we are close to one of the better leagues, the English league so we can send out best players there to learn the ropes, just like with the national soccer team. It's more about the dedication and ability of the players who make up the national squad than anything else. If each of our players could up their performance 10% year on year and we could maintain that standard, then we could mix it with the best.

Marshy

gbh wrote:

A lot is made of our small population but I don't think it should make that much difference. I think we have a bigger population than New Zealand and they are the third best team in the world. Zimbabwe or the West Indies don't have a big population to pick from. And we are close to one of the better leagues, the English league so we can send out best players there to learn the ropes, just like with the national soccer team. It's more about the dedication and ability of the players who make up the national squad than anything else. If each of our players could up their performance 10% year on year and we could maintain that standard, then we could mix it with the best.

Well its the very small cricket playing population that is really the issue in question. I mean its way down the list in terms of most popular sports. GAA, rugby, soccer, golf, basketball, sailing among others would be ahead I'd imagine.

The comparison with NZ is quite a good one. Its amazing that such a small country can be among the worlds best teams in two major sports. Even still though, their cricket playing population would be considerably larger to ours AFAIK. It would only be behind rugby union and perhaps league.

Chucky the tree

Most of the NZ rugby players are from the pacfic islands so they dont really have that small a population pool.

I dont want to keep harping on the Ed Joyce subject, but hes probaly the best player we have produced in a long long time and he cant even make it into the england test squad.

Marshy

Chucky the tree wrote:

I dont want to keep harping on the Ed Joyce subject, but hes probaly the best player we have produced in a long long time and he cant even make it into the england test squad.

He was on the ashes tour.

Chucky the tree

Meant the test 11.



Even then he only made the squad when Tres went honey-nut loop.

the_zooter

First time post - but I thought I'd add to the debate!!

It would seem that the best way forwards for Irish cricket is not yet Test cricket. Maybe one day, but that would be at least 10 years away, probably double that! But where do Irish cricket go now?

Well the inter-continental has to be the way forwards, and prove that Ireland are better than it's peers (Netherlands, Scotland, Canada et al), but the amount of cricket these countries play is not enough and is a struggle with amateur status. Firstly, somehow, Ireland need to go professional. 15 to 20 players all centrally contracted to the Irish board.
Ireland should play as a county in the English county championship. In my opinion, England as a test nation should have an obligation to improve their near neighbours. With 2 divisions in the county championship, there is no reason why another 2/3 counties (ie Ireland, Scotland and Netherlands) shouldn't play in the competition.
Once Ireland (and Scotland and NL) have improved and are used to playing 4 day matches, they could set-up their own first-class competition, maybe 6 teams (2 from each country) competing?

The inter-continental competition could be improved by including the test-nations A-teams, which would surely give a bit of a benchmark as to how the non-test nations might perform against the bigger boys.

The ICC need to turn the non-test nations into more professional outfits if they want to see cricket become more wide-spread across the world.

Oh, and one final point about the UAE. The problem with their team importing pakistani's and Indians is that although the population of the UAE is probably double that of Ireland, there are maybe only 15 to 20% that are UAE nationals, because they don't allow anyone to apply for citizenship, however there are literally hundreds of thousands of people who were born and raised in the UAE, lived all of their lives there and, if cricketers, have only ever played in the UAE, yet are pakistani or Indian nationals because of the citizenship rule! Just a clarification!

thebaz

the_zooter wrote:

Oh, and one final point about the UAE. The problem with their team importing pakistani's and Indians is that although the population of the UAE is probably double that of Ireland, there are maybe only 15 to 20% that are UAE nationals, because they don't allow anyone to apply for citizenship, however there are literally hundreds of thousands of people who were born and raised in the UAE, lived all of their lives there and, if cricketers, have only ever played in the UAE, yet are pakistani or Indian nationals because of the citizenship rule! Just a clarification!

it was a few years ago, and i don't know whats happened to UAE cricket since, but the rumour back then , was some cricket loving sheik bankrolled them to play for UAE.

thebaz

well done to the Irish team for a fabulous world cup , i'd rank them 9th in the world , ahead of Bangladesh -- some achievement given our numbers playing - i know test cricket is a bit off, should be a goal though , and we MUST keep our best players for one day cricket , and keep up our progress, maybe we can jump ahead of West Indies , and make the top 8 .

We should also be competetive at 20/20 , but i think we missed qualifying for the WC , due to those close matches we lost in Africa, anyone know when the 20/20 WC is ?

KevIRL

thebaz wrote:

wahead of West Indies , and make the top 8 .

We should also be competetive at 20/20 , but i think we missed qualifying for the WC , due to those close matches we lost in Africa, anyone know when the 20/20 WC is ?

Its on in Sept.

Ireland are involved in a 4 team 20/20 tournament in Belfast in the Summer though, with Scotland, Holland and Denmark

Chucky the tree

thebaz wrote:

well done to the Irish team for a fabulous world cup , i'd rank them 9th in the world , ahead of Bangladesh -- some achievement given our numbers playing - i know test cricket is a bit off, should be a goal though , and we MUST keep our best players for one day cricket , and keep up our progress, maybe we can jump ahead of West Indies , and make the top 8 .

We should also be competetive at 20/20 , but i think we missed qualifying for the WC , due to those close matches we lost in Africa, anyone know when the 20/20 WC is ?

West indies are miles ahead of us, and bangladesh are still better then us aswell. we'd want to start beating the likes of scotland on a regular basis before we can claim to be any use.

thebaz

Chucky the tree wrote:

West indies are miles ahead of us, and bangladesh are still better then us aswell. we'd want to start beating the likes of scotland on a regular basis before we can claim to be any use.

Do you ever have anything positive to say about Irish sport , Chucky , instead of constantly be-littling any achievement -- we have a small population , got ranked 7th in Cricket WC, win numerous Triple Crowns in rugby ,and you whine on on about how useless we are -- why not go the whole hog and support a bigger country , that might satisfy your needs.

Chucky the tree

thebaz wrote:

Do you ever have anything positive to say about Irish sport , Chucky , instead of constantly be-littling any achievement -- we have a small population , got ranked 7th in Cricket WC, win numerous Triple Crowns in rugby ,and you whine on on about how useless we are -- why not go the whole hog and support a bigger country , that might satisfy your needs.

Its not my fault i have to continually correct your ****e talk baz. Maybe if your werent so delluded it wouldnt be a problem. Or if you had a bit more realistic views it wouldnt be too bad. But you seem to have your head stuck up a leprechans ass and believe Ireland are the best in the world at everything.

When did i be-little the irish teams achievement? Can you quote it and show me please?

Saying we are not far off West indies is crazy, where the hell did you get that gem from? This isnt the rugby forum so i dont want to get into that.

thebaz

Chucky the tree wrote:

Its not my fault i have to continually correct your ****e talk baz. Maybe if your werent so delluded it wouldnt be a problem. Or if you had a bit more realistic views it wouldnt be too bad. But you seem to have your head stuck up a leprechans ass and believe Ireland are the best in the world at everything.

When did i be-little the irish teams achievement? Can you quote it and show me please?

Saying we are not far off West indies is crazy, where the hell did you get that gem from? This isnt the rugby forum so i dont want to get into that.

Watch what you say about me --

claiming the Irish cricket team are no use , is hardly flattering after what they have achieved !
youv'e compared Eddie o'sullivans achievements/coaching ability to that of Steve Stauntan
and you constantlly belittle the Ireland rugby teams victories --

and i never said Ireland were the best at anything
so don't comment on anything else i post -- you unpatriotic troll -- or i'll get a ban if i say what I really think

RuggieBear

pair of you stop or i will ban you both.

thebaz: stop being so bloody optimistic.

Chucky: stop being so ****ing pessimistic.

RuggieBear

Just to reiterate. i don't want to ban people. let it go.

mikeruurds

I think that the_zooter has a great idea there where he mentions that the "A" teams from the top 5 should be encouraged to play Bangladesh and Ireland more regularly. It'd be good for both groups.

the_zooter

mikeruurds wrote:

I think that the_zooter has a great idea there where he mentions that the "A" teams from the top 5 should be encouraged to play Bangladesh and Ireland more regularly. It'd be good for both groups.

The ICC should offer me a job!! I've got loads of crazy ideas that have to be better than some of the wacky ideas that they have!